Showdown Value and Protection

arenaci

arenaci

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Hey ladies and gents,
I encountered that it is usually not advised to bet a hand with showdown value because Villain will usually continue with better hands. On the other hand, it is also advised to protect your hand by betting where you have a second or third pair.:confused: I kinda think these two concepts contradict each other. Any ideas?
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

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Showdown value is most applicable at the river where protection isn't necessary. At the flop and turn, you're right that there can be competing reasons for betting and checking when you have showdown value but also want to protect your hand. Best times to check with showdown value:

** Board is coordinated.

** You have a draw too (particularly weaker one like gutshot).

** Your opponent check-raises a lot.

Good question and I hope this helps a little!
 
arenaci

arenaci

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Showdown value is most applicable at the river where protection isn't necessary. At the flop and turn, you're right that there can be competing reasons for betting and checking when you have showdown value but also want to protect your hand. Best times to check with showdown value:

** Board is coordinated.

** You have a draw too (particularly weaker one like gutshot).

** Your opponent check-raises a lot.

Good question and I hope this helps a little!


Thanks for the answer Collin. Much appreciated. On the flop isn't it a better idea to bet with SDV for protection when the board is coordinated rather than checking? Reason being our SDV is vulnerable. Villain can outdraw us on later streets. And rather check our SDV on dry boards because our SDV is more stable now. Villain migh not call with worse.
 
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fundiver199

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The issue with coordinated boards is, that people will continue more often, and they will have a lot of equity against a marginal made hand, when they do. They will also check-raise more, because they have more draws, and they want to fast play their strong made hands like sets and two pair.

Lets say for example you have A8o on K87 two tone. Then a hand like T9 has around 50% equity. It is not going to fold, and it might even put in a check-raise as a semibluff. So against that specific hand a bet does not really accomplish anything. But if the board is K83 rainbow, now T9 might actucally fold, and since it still has 25-30% equity, this is a good outcome for you.

If you bet A8 on the K83 rainbow board the plan is to basically check back any turn, which is not a A or 8, and then make a decision on the river. Even if you got called by a hand like KQ, its not the end of the world, because you had 25% equity on the flop, and you got to realise all of it for the price of one bet. Its important to not bet to big though. JT is probably folding to a half pot bet, and KQ is not folding to almost any bet, so going big just lose you more, when you are behind.
 
arenaci

arenaci

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The issue with coordinated boards is, that people will continue more often, and they will have a lot of equity against a marginal made hand, when they do. They will also check-raise more, because they have more draws, and they want to fast play their strong made hands like sets and two pair.

Lets say for example you have A8o on K87 two tone. Then a hand like T9 has around 50% equity. It is not going to fold, and it might even put in a check-raise as a semibluff. So against that specific hand a bet does not really accomplish anything. But if the board is K83 rainbow, now T9 might actucally fold, and since it still has 25-30% equity, this is a good outcome for you.

If you bet A8 on the K83 rainbow board the plan is to basically check back any turn, which is not a A or 8, and then make a decision on the river. Even if you got called by a hand like KQ, its not the end of the world, because you had 25% equity on the flop, and you got to realise all of it for the price of one bet. Its important to not bet to big though. JT is probably folding to a half pot bet, and KQ is not folding to almost any bet, so going big just lose you more, when you are behind.


Thanks for the answer fundiver. Much appreciated.

1.Let's assume we are playing cash game and are pre-flop aggressor with A8. On the K87 board villain might have T9, Kx, sets, two pair hands which have 50+ equity. On the other hand, villain also might have other air hands (more combos of other hands like smaller pocket pairs, Ax, suited connectors other than T9, suited one gappers, etc). I mean his air combos overwhelm his value combos. I think by checking we give him a free turn card which might help his air combos to improve on the turn.(Is my reasoning flawed?) If we bet and get raised we just stick it in because Kx, set and two pair combos would highly likely call rather than raise in the first place.

2. Now with A8 on K83 board. I think check might be better than betting because we don't want to build a big pot here with a stable showdown value. And I don't see him calling with worse.
 
theheeb1984

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The issue with coordinated boards is, that people will continue more often, and they will have a lot of equity against a marginal made hand, when they do. They will also check-raise more, because they have more draws, and they want to fast play their strong made hands like sets and two pair.

Lets say for example you have A8o on K87 two tone. Then a hand like T9 has around 50% equity. It is not going to fold, and it might even put in a check-raise as a semibluff. So against that specific hand a bet does not really accomplish anything. But if the board is K83 rainbow, now T9 might actucally fold, and since it still has 25-30% equity, this is a good outcome for you.

If you bet A8 on the K83 rainbow board the plan is to basically check back any turn, which is not a A or 8, and then make a decision on the river. Even if you got called by a hand like KQ, its not the end of the world, because you had 25% equity on the flop, and you got to realise all of it for the price of one bet. Its important to not bet to big though. JT is probably folding to a half pot bet, and KQ is not folding to almost any bet, so going big just lose you more, when you are behind.


Looks like someone has been reading my play too much and spelling out where my mistake tends to be.... Thank you for sharing this quick tidbit to remind me about needing to slow down a bit to help reduce my loss in this type of situation.
 
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fundiver199

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Thanks for the answer fundiver. Much appreciated.

1.Let's assume we are playing cash game and are pre-flop aggressor with A8. On the K87 board villain might have T9, Kx, sets, two pair hands which have 50+ equity. On the other hand, villain also might have other air hands (more combos of other hands like smaller pocket pairs, Ax, suited connectors other than T9, suited one gappers, etc). I mean his air combos overwhelm his value combos. I think by checking we give him a free turn card which might help his air combos to improve on the turn.(Is my reasoning flawed?) If we bet and get raised we just stick it in because Kx, set and two pair combos would highly likely call rather than raise in the first place.

2. Now with A8 on K83 board. I think check might be better than betting because we don't want to build a big pot here with a stable showdown value. And I don't see him calling with worse.

The point is, that middle pair has much less equity against Villains range on a wet board. And because we have this less overall equity, our hand is basically not strong enough to warrent protection. A lot of the time there will be some kind of bad board runout, where its tough for us to continue, especially if we start to build a bit pot. So its better to keep the pot small and his range wide, even though we will then sometimes get outdrawn.

On the dry board we dont absolutely have to bet second pair either. But a hand like A8 does not really have "stable showdown value" on K83. Villain can easily have two overcards to our pair, and often it will be third or fourth pair, when we get to the river. So its not the greatest hand to use as a bluffcatcher.

If we want to hand him the rope to hang himself, a hand like top pair with a bad kicker is a better candidate, because then we basically only need to worry about an ace hitting the board. Or we can use a hand like QQ, which is also not strong enough to go for 3 streets of value. With A8 on K83 its not a big mistake to check back, but there is a lot of value in betting to simply end the hand. And while we are not happy when called, he can call with some worse hands as well. Maybe 8X with a worse kicker, or if he is bad any pair. So against a calling station, its more of a thin value bet.
 
arenaci

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Makes sense, thanks a lot fundiver. So, it is better to check with AQ on KQ3 board than with A8 on K83.
 
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1nsomn1a

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I think it's better to place a bet than to give a free chance to collect a draw. Just adjust the bet size so that the opponent has a bad chance of winning the pot, and then play more carefully when a dangerous card comes out.

If the opponent often checks-raises, it is better to enter the game with stronger hands, so as not to get into difficult situations with the average pair.:)
 
messats

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Hey ladies and gents,
I encountered that it is usually not advised to bet a hand with showdown value because Villain will usually continue with better hands. On the other hand, it is also advised to protect your hand by betting where you have a second or third pair.:confused: I kinda think these two concepts contradict each other. Any ideas?

that is why it is key to collect information how your opponents bet, their bet sizing vpip etc
 
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1nsomn1a

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if you want to get a lot of money with the strongest hand, create for himself the image of a loose player who bluffs often and will not need at all to use the slow play.

When I play my hand slowly, very often the variance punishes me with a thorn and a river, so I am unlearned.:D
 
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fundiver199

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Makes sense, thanks a lot fundiver. So, it is better to check with AQ on KQ3 board than with A8 on K83.

That is a perfect example of a hand, which does not need protection, and where it can make a lot of sense to check back the flop to underrepresent it a little bit and to have some hands in our check-back range, that can call a turn + river bet on most runouts.
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

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Thanks for the answer Collin. Much appreciated. On the flop isn't it a better idea to bet with SDV for protection when the board is coordinated rather than checking? Reason being our SDV is vulnerable. Villain can outdraw us on later streets. And rather check our SDV on dry boards because our SDV is more stable now. Villain migh not call with worse.


Good question. Generally we should check showdown value on coordinated flops since we're called often and our equity tends to be mediocre when called. Of course, if you have a hand like second pair, that's often more than just showdown value and you can bet for value/protection.

But let's say you have a hand like Ad 9h on Qh 8h 5s. You have showdown value but it's a spot where you should normally check due to lack of fold equity and not doing well against your opponent's calling range (which will often have ~ 10 outs against us even when we're ahead).
 
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