Poker Profit 0.01/0.02 level

[takethepain]

Hi guys, I'm new to this website and reasonably new to training to play poker with the motivation of being profitable rather than just gambling. I've been trying to build up my bank roll at 0.01/0.02 full table NLH but my frustrating keeps getting in my way.

What typically happens is that I'll play for say 50 minutes, and in time time more often than not I've gone from $2 to $2.20 - $2.30. Somewhere around there. But I get frustrated. I see guys come in and with one (sometimes marginal hand), double up even triple up their chips and make more profit than I would playing for a day so inevitably I go all in with a reasonable hand (say AK, AQ, that type of thing) aiming to get the profit and wind up going broke.

So my question is what is a reasonable profit for a beginner at playing poker for profit at this level? Is 20-30 cents good? I guess if I knew I was on the right track I wouldn't be so apt to 'gamble' at getting more profit!

Cheers

 

[Krk]

I m not the most experienced one, but I can confirm your experience as a total newbie and can I tell you what you will discover yourself by game or in the forum later anyway - discipline is a (painfull) part of the game.

 

[Tangerine 53]

So my question is what is a reasonable profit for a beginner at playing poker for profit at this level? Is 20-30 cents good? I guess if I knew I was on the right track I wouldn't be so apt to 'gamble' at getting more profit!

Cheers

You need to look at profits over the long term - if you look over these forums you will see people refer to BB/100 - i.e. how many Big Blinds they win per 100 hands. So at 2NL a win rate of 4BB / 100 would equate to $0.08 over 100 hands. Look at it on this basis rather than what you win over a single session - after all you could win 20-30 cents on one hand or it could take you a few hours. Don't get tilted by the people who seemingly double up on marginal hands as in the long term that's a losing strategy even at 2NL where some of the play can be downright reckless. Learn from some good books and by the advice on this forum and you will (hopefully) evolve a long term profitable strategy. Find the game that suits you best - for me at present it's SNG's as I've found that I'm a losing player at cash games.

As to what is a good win rate - I'd invite others to comment but the consensus I've seen is that anything from break even to 2BB / 100 is OK and anything between 2BB - 5BB / 100 (particualrly for the high volume players) is very good. Anything above 5BB / 100 over a significant volume.
is exceptional.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

 

[acky100]

If you ever want to make profit from microstakes cash games, the biggest thing you should learn is patience, and dont always expect to win also.. and.... going all in with hands like AK AQ when you're bored is definately going to make you a losing player, fair enough you will win sometimes doing that but any other hand that calls you will usually either have you crushed like AA, KK, or will be a coinflip e.g. pocket pairs. The best thing to do is read all the articles on this forum good luck!

 

[takethepain]

Thank-you for your advice guys!

So basically what I'm getting is that when I'm alert and playing 'good' poker, I'm doing ok in the profit stakes. Which I guess is good, shows I'm on the right track anyway!

And yeah, completely agree Acky100. I downloaded Poker Tracker 3 last night and analysed my hand history and some of my biggest loosing hands were the AK's, the AQ's, the QQ's. Cards like that. Typically I would keep playing them hard even when there was a possible straight or flush was out there on the board. If I let myself fold those sorts of hands in these dangerous situations I'm pretty sure I'ld go close to a break-even, if not winning player overnight.

Easier said than done of course. Your eyes do tend to light-up (online anyway!) when you see yourself dealt those cards.

 

[CistaCista]

Hey, I am trying to survive on 2NL myself, I arrived with just around 5 buyins. But I am not playing full ring, I am playing six max, because it seems to me that then you only have to deal with one donk at the time. You can play a little more hands, for instance I still play Ax and pairs, and not get run over by 2-3 guys calling with lesser hands than that.

Apart from the range I guess the main thing to keep in mind on the micros is to fold, fold, fold. When in doubt, fold. And never bluff. That's what I have been told and I am trying to stick to it, but I am still not playing tight enough I have to say lol.

 

[blueskies]

It's hard to stay patient, but you just to presevere through the unlucky runs.

I am on one of those streaks now. Been only winning a little bit for the last 3 weeks. Get close to a new high... then crash back and then reapproach and lose again.

Just gotta try to play the right way until things turn around.

 

[acky100]

Yeah you're welcome mate, glad to see you've got pokertracker, im still on my free trial it helps a lot! Good luck at the tables mate, keep focused and most importantly learn how to play by position this is maybe the single most profitable thing to learn about and stick too and will guarantee your win rate to go up!

 

[swingro]

Hi guys, I'm new to this website and reasonably new to training to play poker with the motivation of being profitable rather than just gambling. I've been trying to build up my bank roll at 0.01/0.02 full table NLH but my frustrating keeps getting in my way.

What typically happens is that I'll play for say 50 minutes, and in time time more often than not I've gone from $2 to $2.20 - $2.30. Somewhere around there. But I get frustrated. I see guys come in and with one (sometimes marginal hand), double up even triple up their chips and make more profit than I would playing for a day so inevitably I go all in with a reasonable hand (say AK, AQ, that type of thing) aiming to get the profit and wind up going broke.

So my question is what is a reasonable profit for a beginner at playing poker for profit at this level? Is 20-30 cents good? I guess if I knew I was on the right track I wouldn't be so apt to 'gamble' at getting more profit!

Cheers

I do not think that is the correct play for microstakes.

Have you ever tryed to reed Ed Millers book "Small Stakes Holdem"?

1. You need patience. Avoid donk mistakes(chasing flushes without pott odds, chasing trips, overrating big pairs etc.)
2. You need to play more hands when the table allows you. If they let you limp with small pairs than limp. If they let you limp with suited connectors than limp. If you hit for a small price than you can kick the pot hard to value it. Pott odds are the most important thing that tells you if it's worth to see the next card or not.
3. If you have Aces or Kings or Queens reraise. Do not let donks get a set or make their hand for free.If they are curious than they have to pay.
4. If you hit the flop bet for value. Some donk will follow you.
5. Do not bluff often. Here is where a lot of money are lost.
6. Do not go all in with AK, AQ, AJ. In a multyway pot these are just regular hands. One of the biggest mistakes at smallstakes. See the flop than decide. Only AA , KK are huge favourites in a multyway pot.

There are a lot of things you can do. Do stop only at the preflop play. Read the entire book.

And patience again. Most money are lost postflop because ppl do not fold when they should do and are there is no patience to wait for another hand.

And again. Read articles, read books, there are a lot of strategies to beat the micros.
The usual things do not work on micros, but it is still poker.
I am a beginner just as you are, recently i hit an year since i first played on facebook I did not made millions but i could cash once 700 dollars that i spent for a new computer, and i have now Brs from 5 to 100$ on every possible site all made from scrap and no deposit bonuses playing micros ,small buy-in SNG, freerolls. What i can say is that it is not easy, but learning , experiencing and having patience makes you a better player. I am jealous of the ppl that started playing 4-5 years ago and talk about thousands of dollars. But at the same time they are the ones from whom i get advice. Important thing is to learn something from them.

 

[takethepain]

Yeah you're welcome mate, glad to see you've got pokertracker, im still on my free trial it helps a lot! Good luck at the tables mate, keep focused and most importantly learn how to play by position this is maybe the single most profitable thing to learn about and stick too and will guarantee your win rate to go up!

Yeah I have really found it a useful piece of software, if nothing else looking over the statistics (some that I barely understand mind you), has made me think about my own game in greater detail which can only be a good thing!

When I very first started trying to understand poker at a 'professional' level, I looked at a video on full-tilt academy by I believe Phil Gordon talking about the benefit of position. I even scoffed when he said he would consider laying down AQ under-the-gun simply because of the threat of being dominated is too great, and the pay-off if you are not will be too small. But after playing for a bit I'm really starting to get what he means (still not ballsy enough to lay it down though! Maybe A-10 I will lay down these days in a cash game)

Good luck in the Ashes btw, not that you guys will be needing it.

I do not think that is the correct play for microstakes.

Have you ever tryed to reed Ed Millers book "Small Stakes Holdem"?

1. You need patience. Avoid donk mistakes(chasing flushes without pott odds, chasing trips, overrating big pairs etc.)
2. You need to play more hands when the table allows you. If they let you limp with small pairs than limp. If they let you limp with suited connectors than limp. If you hit for a small price than you can kick the pot hard to value it. Pott odds are the most important thing that tells you if it's worth to see the next card or not.
3. If you have Aces or Kings or Queens reraise. Do not let donks get a set or make their hand for free.If they are curious than they have to pay.
4. If you hit the flop bet for value. Some donk will follow you.
5. Do not bluff often. Here is where a lot of money are lost.
6. Do not go all in with AK, AQ, AJ. In a multyway pot these are just regular hands. One of the biggest mistakes at smallstakes. See the flop than decide. Only AA , KK are huge favourites in a multyway pot.

There are a lot of things you can do. Do stop only at the preflop play. Read the entire book.

And patience again. Most money are lost postflop because ppl do not fold when they should do and are there is no patience to wait for another hand.

And again. Read articles, read books, there are a lot of strategies to beat the micros.
The usual things do not work on micros, but it is still poker.
I am a beginner just as you are, recently i hit an year since i first played on facebook I did not made millions but i could cash once 700 dollars that i spent for a new computer, and i have now Brs from 5 to 100$ on every possible site all made from scrap and no deposit bonuses playing micros ,small buy-in SNG, freerolls. What i can say is that it is not easy, but learning , experiencing and having patience makes you a better player. I am jealous of the ppl that started playing 4-5 years ago and talk about thousands of dollars. But at the same time they are the ones from whom i get advice. Important thing is to learn something from them.

I have read a few books but not that one, I shall look it up and order it ASAP. Having said that, I'm not really focused on 'winning' low limits holdem; I'm more focused on developing my poker game so that when the stakes are increased I'm not a uhhh fish out of water. I do agree with many of your points though, although I do tend to bluff a little bit if I get a good read on the opposition.

-----------

Now on a totally different topic, once again the AK bent me over and basically destroyed my profit from playing 200 hands at the 0.01/0.02 stake levels. I was at $2 profit at hand 198, (I was going to stop at hand 200!), when I picked up the AK in the late position. One guy in particular (we shall call him the Villian...) limped infront of me, along with another player. I made a 0.08 bet and the rest folded cept for him who called. Hand came out A 8 2 rainbow. I was pretty happy at this point, top pair and the K kicker. Now the villian came out firing making a pot sized bet, which suprised me because I had him pegged as a pretty conservative player. I thought and figured he had maybe an AQ, AT. The other player folded and I just called.

On the turn the Ace came out which excited yet concerned me, it made it less likely that he held an Ace in his hand so what did he have? Once again he bet, about 0.40 into a 0.60 pot. At this stage I thought....maybe he had trip 8's? But I just couldn't lay down triple Aces with a King Kicker and once again called. The river card came down as a 5. He moved all in (He had about 60 cents left), I thought I had no choice but to call with my hand and sure enough he turned over 88's and his full house beat my triple ace.

Now I'm not winging about this, its poker and these things happen, but I wonder if anyone out there thinks I played that hand wrong. Should I had gotten out when I thought he had picked up triple 8's or was my hand simply too big with no flush/straight draws on the board to lay down?

 

[CistaCista]

Should I had gotten out when I thought he had picked up triple 8's or was my hand simply too big with no flush/straight draws on the board to lay down?

Yeah those hands are some of the worst, when your great trips turns out to be a house for the villain. I'd like to hear if people can argue that that loss was avoidable.

 

[Krk]

Yeah I have really found it a useful piece of software, if nothing else looking over the statistics (some that I barely understand mind you), has made me think about my own game in greater detail which can only be a good thing!

When I very first started trying to understand poker at a 'professional' level, I looked at a video on full-tilt academy by I believe Phil Gordon talking about the benefit of position. I even scoffed when he said he would consider laying down AQ under-the-gun simply because of the threat of being dominated is too great, and the pay-off if you are not will be too small. But after playing for a bit I'm really starting to get what he means (still not ballsy enough to lay it down though! Maybe A-10 I will lay down these days in a cash game)

Good luck in the Ashes btw, not that you guys will be needing it.



I have read a few books but not that one, I shall look it up and order it ASAP. Having said that, I'm not really focused on 'winning' low limits holdem; I'm more focused on developing my poker game so that when the stakes are increased I'm not a uhhh fish out of water. I do agree with many of your points though, although I do tend to bluff a little bit if I get a good read on the opposition.

-----------

Now on a totally different topic, once again the AK bent me over and basically destroyed my profit from playing 200 hands at the 0.01/0.02 stake levels. I was at $2 profit at hand 198, (I was going to stop at hand 200!), when I picked up the AK in the late position. One guy in particular (we shall call him the Villian...) limped infront of me, along with another player. I made a 0.08 bet and the rest folded cept for him who called. Hand came out A 8 2 rainbow. I was pretty happy at this point, top pair and the K kicker. Now the villian came out firing making a pot sized bet, which suprised me because I had him pegged as a pretty conservative player. I thought and figured he had maybe an AQ, AT. The other player folded and I just called.

On the turn the Ace came out which excited yet concerned me, it made it less likely that he held an Ace in his hand so what did he have? Once again he bet, about 0.40 into a 0.60 pot. At this stage I thought....maybe he had trip 8's? But I just couldn't lay down triple Aces with a King Kicker and once again called. The river card came down as a 5. He moved all in (He had about 60 cents left), I thought I had no choice but to call with my hand and sure enough he turned over 88's and his full house beat my triple ace.

Now I'm not winging about this, its poker and these things happen, but I wonder if anyone out there thinks I played that hand wrong. Should I had gotten out when I thought he had picked up triple 8's or was my hand simply too big with no flush/straight draws on the board to lay down?

From my limited XP I will tell you that it may be hard to get out of it but you pretty much said why - he was a pretty conservative player and was not scared by double aces on the board, that could tell ya stg.

Also I just stacked off a person for about a dollar in a cashgame with AK against AQ so it cannot be that useless hand .

 

[swingro]

From my limited XP I will tell you that it may be hard to get out of it but you pretty much said why - he was a pretty conservative player and was not scared by double aces on the board, that could tell ya stg.

Also I just stacked off a person for about a dollar in a cashgame with AK against AQ so it cannot be that useless hand .

These are the kind of hands that you cannot get away from. They happen.

 

[midgetfactory]

hi welcome to the forum, im a newbie myself and have seen improvement in my game which i can say has come from reading the articles on this forum, i think the single most important word in the micro stakes is patience. when you know u cant be beat, milk them, at these stakes ull get paid off.

 

[only_bridge]

If they are really crushing the micros, then they are playing way to low.

No, its more likely that these guys dbl up one time, and lose a couple of buyins the next.

 

[takethepain]

From my limited XP I will tell you that it may be hard to get out of it but you pretty much said why - he was a pretty conservative player and was not scared by double aces on the board, that could tell ya stg.

Also I just stacked off a person for about a dollar in a cashgame with AK against AQ so it cannot be that useless hand .

I hate the AK. I really really hate the AK. Lost some more money on an AQ vs AK situation. I had the AQ this time. Flop came down QJ4. I put in a continuation bet, Villian re-raised me all in (it was only about an extra 20 cents), so I called. 10 came out on the turn......

I really freaking hate that AK. Always costing me money!

BTW Thanks to all who commented on my AAA vs 888AA scenario.

 

[roblomax]

I have recently started taking bankroll management seriously, got myself PT3 and started grinding the super microstakes. What I have found (only over the past 4k hands, or about 4 hours of play @ 15+ tables at a time) so far is that the fold fold fold, preflop all in works well for me, racking up around 100+BB/100 so far. Again my hand sample pool is small so I can't really account for variance, but with my range I find I am very, very rarely dominated and will often dominate people who call a preflop all in (ofc you run into AA and KK now and again, but can't really avoid it).

Any thoughts on this method for the 1c/2c game?

PS: PLayed about 10k hands seriously over a couple of days and ended up with roughly a 30BB/100 average compared to the method listed above.

 

[FastOne]

I have recently started taking Bankroll management seriously, got myself PT3 and started grinding the super microstakes. What I have found (only over the past 4k hands, or about 4 hours of play @ 15+ tables at a time) so far is that the fold fold fold, preflop all in works well for me, racking up around 100+BB/100 so far. Again my hand sample pool is small so I can't really account for variance, but with my range I find I am very, very rarely dominated and will often dominate people who call a preflop all in (ofc you run into AA and KK now and again, but can't really avoid it).

Any thoughts on this method for the 1c/2c game?

PS: PLayed about 10k hands seriously over a couple of days and ended up with roughly a 30BB/100 average compared to the method listed above.

:star:

 

[roblomax]

I would like to amend previous post Wrote BB/100 when I meant BB/hour. BIG difference.

Also, had a bad session so its definitely a volatile method xD

 

[gnarus]

If you ever want to make profit from microstakes cash games, the biggest thing you should learn is patience, and dont always expect to win also.. and.... going all in with hands like AK AQ when you're bored is definately going to make you a losing player, fair enough you will win sometimes doing that but any other hand that calls you will usually either have you crushed like AA, KK, or will be a coinflip e.g. pocket pairs. The best thing to do is read all the articles on this forum good luck!

AK should not be folded pre-flop imo unless you have a read on someone thats pretty tight.. Not at .01/.02. You are only really down to aa and kk which is somewhat unlikely if you have ak. So many times someone will have a weaker ace or even someonthing like kq.

I'm guesing you are used to higher stakes...