How do I know when to fold overpair?

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1player1

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On one hand you have to raise with your overpair, but the danger is out there.
2 pairs, set or even worse.
How do I know when to fold?
 
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zerosalex

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you have to be good with numbers and chip stacks and look at each player's stack and bet an average number of chips that most will just fold/call depending on your pairs strength, you want caller to have weaker hands than yours (but you want low pairs to mainly fold so they don't hit a set) and if someone with better hand than you will raise you might even just call. but if they raise see how much of their stack they are raising. its okay to fold JJ or QQ. but if no raise and some call make sure no A or K on flop. Pairs are strong but not that strong or as strong as they seem so you want to keep making feeler bets to see if your pair holds up. or if you hit a set then play depending on the board.
 
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1player1

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you have to be good with numbers and chip stacks and look at each player's stack and bet an average number of chips that most will just fold/call depending on your pairs strength, you want caller to have weaker hands than yours (but you want low pairs to mainly fold so they don't hit a set) and if someone with better hand than you will raise you might even just call. but if they raise see how much of their stack they are raising. its okay to fold JJ or QQ. but if no raise and some call make sure no A or K on flop. Pairs are strong but not that strong or as strong as they seem so you want to keep making feeler bets to see if your pair holds up. or if you hit a set then play depending on the board.


The other day I played a cash table and got KK in late position.
Noone raised before me and I raised with 3 blinds, button called, and all other folded.
Flop showed 2TJ, I was sure I was in front, so I raised whith half the pot size, and button called. Turn showed 7
I raised half the pot and button went all-in with 100 blinds.
What should I do here?
My stack was big enough to match his bet.
I folded.
Should I have called instead?
 
kidkarioka

kidkarioka

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The other day I played a cash table and got KK in late position.
Noone raised before me and I raised with 3 blinds, button called, and all other folded.
Flop showed 2TJ, I was sure I was in front, so I raised whith half the pot size, and button called. Turn showed 7
I raised half the pot and button went all-in with 100 blinds.
What should I do here?
My stack was big enough to match his bet.
I folded.
Should I have called instead?

Complicated situation. You tried to extract value, you did the right thing. However, the villain, in addition to calling, called all in. Despite having a bigger stack, I think you did the right thing to fold. In situations like this, I call all in preflop. If the villain wins with pairs, I don't get the feeling of being bluffed.
 
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1player1

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Complicated situation. You tried to extract value, you did the right thing. However, the villain, in addition to calling, called all in. Despite having a bigger stack, I think you did the right thing to fold. In situations like this, I call all in preflop. If the villain wins with pairs, I don't get the feeling of being bluffed.

If I went all in preflop, then I would probably have won the blinds. Is that enough value for KK?
 
dimon4ik89

dimon4ik89

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To do this, you need to study well the opponents' playing style. Analyze what bets were made before the flop and on the flop. I think there is no definite rule that fits all situations. Each distribution has a lot of its own nuances that should be taken into account in order to make the right decision.
 
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mara2259

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The overpair is a pretty good hand, but not the strongest in the poker hierarchy. A lot also depends on the kicker. However, you shouldn't fold such a hand, anyway you will have to make the initial raise from 2 to 5 BB. In the future, your actions depend on the villain. You should call according to the pot odds and not overshoot the pot on the following streets if your opponent doesn't give up.
 
Highsolation

Highsolation

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The other day I played a cash table and got KK in late position.
Noone raised before me and I raised with 3 blinds, button called, and all other folded.
Flop showed 2TJ, I was sure I was in front, so I raised whith half the pot size, and button called. Turn showed 7
I raised half the pot and button went all-in with 100 blinds.
What should I do here?
My stack was big enough to match his bet.
I folded.
Should I have called instead?


From my point of view, you did the right fold. Mathematically speaking, pot odds doesn't justify the call.
A small adjustment I would suggest is to add 1 BB for every limper before you (if there were any, you said nobody raised before you, but not sure if there were limpers before you), that way you get more fold equity on your opponents.
Do you have more information on the villain that played from the button, is he a tight or loose player? On a somewhat coordinated flop like that, one would certainly suspect a straight draw, however, does it seem a bit too convenient for the button to have called with 89? Would villain have 89 in his calling range based on the information you have?
Could villain have AK or AQ for the gutshot, and facing the 7 which is a scarecard on that board, went all in representing the straight? Maybe he could have QQ and bluffed on this spot to get fold equity?
IF villain indeed had 89, what card on the river would win over his straight? a Q, K or A for the broadway or a paired board. If he put you on a AQ, AK, there's only 4 outs that counterfeits his straight to the J, that's roughly 9%, he might try extract some value instead of forcing you to fold? If he put you on a pocket pair, QQ+ are dead against his straight at this point, he could extract some value instead of going all in too. If villain puts you on TT or JJ, to complete the full house or hit quads, it's around 23%, was he really protecting his straight that desperately? Also, no idea about flush draws on that board as the information is not provided, but I think it's indeed a very complicated scenario, I do think fold is the right call as you were not getting enough pot odds to justify the call.
But then again, I'm no poker expert myself so maybe my logic is flawed too :)

And about winning only the blinds with KK, certainly is better than losing money with them right? Sometimes if not enough people have decent hands, you won't be able to extract much value as no worse hands are going to call.

Hope you get a better flop next time :)
 
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1player1

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From my point of view, you did the right fold. Mathematically speaking, pot odds doesn't justify the call.
A small adjustment I would suggest is to add 1 BB for every limper before you (if there were any, you said nobody raised before you, but not sure if there were limpers before you), that way you get more fold equity on your opponents.
Do you have more information on the villain that played from the button, is he a tight or loose player? On a somewhat coordinated flop like that, one would certainly suspect a straight draw, however, does it seem a bit too convenient for the button to have called with 89? Would villain have 89 in his calling range based on the information you have?
Could villain have AK or AQ for the gutshot, and facing the 7 which is a scarecard on that board, went all in representing the straight? Maybe he could have QQ and bluffed on this spot to get fold equity?
IF villain indeed had 89, what card on the river would win over his straight? a Q, K or A for the broadway or a paired board. If he put you on a AQ, AK, there's only 4 outs that counterfeits his straight to the J, that's roughly 9%, he might try extract some value instead of forcing you to fold? If he put you on a pocket pair, QQ+ are dead against his straight at this point, he could extract some value instead of going all in too. If villain puts you on TT or JJ, to complete the full house or hit quads, it's around 23%, was he really protecting his straight that desperately? Also, no idea about flush draws on that board as the information is not provided, but I think it's indeed a very complicated scenario, I do think fold is the right call as you were not getting enough pot odds to justify the call.
But then again, I'm no poker expert myself so maybe my logic is flawed too :)

And about winning only the blinds with KK, certainly is better than losing money with them right? Sometimes if not enough people have decent hands, you won't be able to extract much value as no worse hands are going to call.

Hope you get a better flop next time :)


Thanks for the interesting feedback. I would call the villian a calling station, and I was almost sure he hit his set on the turn :)
 
M

Majari_

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The other day I played a cash table and got KK in late position.
Noone raised before me and I raised with 3 blinds, button called, and all other folded.
Flop showed 2TJ, I was sure I was in front, so I raised whith half the pot size, and button called. Turn showed 7
I raised half the pot and button went all-in with 100 blinds.
What should I do here?
My stack was big enough to match his bet.
I folded.
Should I have called instead?


I think villain would have 3-bet with TT/JJ/QQ and there's about 2% chance to flop 2 pair so I'd think you were ahead on the flop. Was there a flush draw on the flop that turn completed? Only two hands you would lose to would be set of deuces or pocket aces so I'd call here.
 
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Highsolation

Highsolation

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Thanks for the interesting feedback. I would call the villian a calling station, and I was almost sure he hit his set on the turn :)

That's an interesting read on the villain... so let me ask a few more questions:



Would you have called the 100 BB all in if the flop were K T J, and 7 on the turn? Would you have suspected 89 for the straight?

If you were villain, knowing that you got raised to 3BB, would you go all in on a board that has 3 overcards? Because pocket pairs definitely would be in the range.

Again, I'm no poker expert myself, but I do have many questions hehe
 
GDKavindu

GDKavindu

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Overpairs are usually very easy to play. Be aggressive preflop, continue being aggressive postflop, and aim to get looked up by someone who couldn’t fold their second-best holding.
 
1

1player1

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That's an interesting read on the villain... so let me ask a few more questions:



Would you have called the 100 BB all in if the flop were K T J, and 7 on the turn? Would you have suspected 89 for the straight?

If you were villain, knowing that you got raised to 3BB, would you go all in on a board that has 3 overcards? Because pocket pairs definitely would be in the range.

Again, I'm no poker expert myself, but I do have many questions hehe


When a calling station who almost never raise goes all-in, and I only hold a pair, then I always gets suspicious. Hope I did right to fold :)
 
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Ivan Zaruba

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If there are a lot of people left in the hand on the postflop, then an overpair may not be the best hand at the moment. And if you make a big bet, and you are also raised, it can be a clue ... However, a lot depends on how your opponent plays, whether he often bluffs, etc.
 
Evan Jarvis

Evan Jarvis

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On one hand you have to raise with your overpair, but the danger is out there.
2 pairs, set or even worse.
How do I know when to fold?


This is all about knowing your opponent,

Some players will only make raises with 2pair or better (especially on the turn)

While more aggressive players will make this play with draws and weak pairs sometimes.

This playlist on player types will help you with making these sorts of reads

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBrNnyWekagOoExJPqtRmidlSDjsIBxIl

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zdPfnsomOA&list=PLBrNnyWekagOoExJPqtRmidlSDjsIBxIl[/ame]

To help practicing the situation always ask yourself "Would my opponent ever make this raise with a weaker hand than what I'm holding"

If the answer is No, then fold, if the answer is Yes then ask "What % of the time is my opponent making this play with a worse hand, vs what % of the time does he have a better hand"

Obviously you are going to have to make guesses and estimations, but the more often you do it then more accurate you will become at making these assessments of situations.
 
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