RogueRivered
Visionary
Silver Level
Well, yeah, I guess. But that's not the question he asked. He asked how to beat 5nl. This is the microstakes thread, right? If someone asked how to play the blinds at 100 or 200 nl, I wouldn't pretend to have the best answer -- but I do know something about 5nl.
RogueRivered
Visionary
Silver Level
I mean theoretically, I think you are right. But there must some dynamics that are different in different games requiring a slightly different approach to maximize your expectation, mostly due to your opponents' idiosyncrasies. As you well know, the dynamics in 5nl are not the same as 100 nl.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in deep stack poker, some players are more willing to play loosely preflop if they stand to win a huge pot with a surprise holding.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in deep stack poker, some players are more willing to play loosely preflop if they stand to win a huge pot with a surprise holding.
slycbnew
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
This is true, and you want to know how to exploit them, and playing a wider range is part of that (isolating is another part of this fwiw) - however, there aren't as many of them the higher you go up. Playing like one, though, makes you a huge target to good regs.
I recently read a very good post on another forum that argues that the key to microstakes for anyone serious about learning the game is learning to beat regs - I strongly agree with this, and I think that's part of others' points in this thread. Fish are gravy - but fishing is much less lucrative at higher levels simply because there are fewer to go around. You need to have a game that stands up to the regs.
I recently read a very good post on another forum that argues that the key to microstakes for anyone serious about learning the game is learning to beat regs - I strongly agree with this, and I think that's part of others' points in this thread. Fish are gravy - but fishing is much less lucrative at higher levels simply because there are fewer to go around. You need to have a game that stands up to the regs.
eNTy
Legend
Silver Level
i seriously understood about 2 words in this post
i cant even begin to understand what u are saying
i cant even begin to understand what u are saying
slycbnew
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Hmmm, maybe I misunderstood your post - if you're seeking successful players executing a looser preflop style, you may want to read Negreneau, Hansen, and/or Gavin Smith (I'm sure there are others, I'm not that familiar w others though - and what I've read from these three focuses on MTT's not cash). All three, though, emphasize being aggressive rather than passive preflop (i.e., raising). Smith and Hansen don't care about position much, but isolate a lot. All three are expert at hand reading, which is key to LAG play.
C
cAPSLOCK
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
So basically cAPS you're just limping along with all the others preflop. How are you playing post? Are you leading with any piece? Are you ch/r a lot? How often do you double barrel in the limped pots? What's your total VPIP/PFR at this level? Over what sample?
RogueRivered
Visionary
Silver Level
Yeah, that is a great post. I don't have enough hands at 10nl yet, but at 5nl the main regs I had were extremely nitty. You could steal like crazy from them, but one big loss would wipe out your small wins. In other words, don't play big pots with them. I haven't run into any regs yet that played a balanced game.Which two?
I don't think one size strategy fits all. Do you?
Tee hee.
I know I know I know...
Looks like you do double-barrel a lot! Check out the Turn c-bet % - A true 5nl connoisseur.
RogueRivered
Visionary
Silver Level
I have read Hansen and I enjoyed Every Hand Revealed. But I'm not really seeking a loose style. I'm just thinking that the deeper the stacks, the more you can take a small flyer preflop to try to win a huge pot postflop, due to implied odds. You ever watch Poker After Dark? A lot of those pros make some surprising calls when the hand is multi-way. But they get out of the way quick if the flop doesn't help them.
I have no idea if I'm a decent hand reader, but in heads up pots I have a large winrate.
slycbnew
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
This is completely accurate.
Taking these flyers in position rather than oop is generally preferable - even if you hit a flop hard w a speculative hand oop (sb, for example), your ability to extract value is constrained (obviously the weaker your opponents, the easier to get value - so if you notice someone can't let go of TPTK under any circumstances, set mining as an example is more of an option than against someone who easily lets those go of such a hand).
Wv's list of questions to cAPS is a good indication of what you need to do to maximize your value if you're playing oop alot in limped pots; good regs at higher stakes will take advantage if you're "fit or fold" postflop. However, many stronger regs also track % of time you bet/donk bet/check-raise the flop as well, and take advantage if your stats are too far out of line.
C
cAPSLOCK
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
^^Your questionnaire answered above.
I suspect as I move (ever so slowly compared to you volume players) up the limits I will see my EP "strategy" turn fairly sour fairly quickly. I expect 25nl and 50nl will no longer allow me to play this way. Even 10nl at stars might prohibit it... I've played a little though and it seemsquite similar to 5nl, but not as deep. I am rolled for 10 nl, but I prefer deep play, and tend to win more when I am deep, so 5nl is IMHO like 10nl with a discount in the blinds.
I do not make any claims about my skill or wisdom as a player. I play for fun. I got caught up (like RR seems to be) defending myself (mostly in my own mind) against a sort of player that I do not even remotely resemble. I am NOTHING like the 10 tabling HUD using "regs". But I also think I am not quite exactly like your single tabling fish either.
I play the very smallest stakes. I beat them. I have no desire, currently, to play more tables. It may be a long time before I can see what changes I get to make soon. But some of them, at least, seem fairly easy to anticipate.
slycbnew
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
^^Your questionnaire answered above.
I suspect as I move (ever so slowly compared to you volume players) up the limits I will see my EP "strategy" turn fairly sour fairly quickly. I expect 25nl and 50nl will no longer allow me to play this way. Even 10nl at stars might prohibit it... I've played a little though and it seemsquite similar to 5nl, but not as deep. I am rolled for 10 nl, but I prefer deep play, and tend to win more when I am deep, so 5nl is IMHO like 10nl with a discount in the blinds.
I do not make any claims about my skill or wisdom as a player. I play for fun. I got caught up (like RR seems to be) defending myself (mostly in my own mind) against a sort of player that I do not even remotely resemble. I am NOTHING like the 10 tabling HUD using "regs". But I also think I am not quite exactly like your single tabling fish either.
I play the very smallest stakes. I beat them. I have no desire, currently, to play more tables. It may be a long time before I can see what changes I get to make soon. But some of them, at least, seem fairly easy to anticipate.
Thanks for the answers cAPS. I hadn't thought about the deepness of 5nl tables and how that might factor in here. I have no experience at these levels at Stars, do most people buy-in for the 200bb max? I can see where the combo of deeper stacks + generally bad play could make a LP blind style work. You're seeing cheap multi-way flops and people are paying off when you hit hard. Pretty good combination.
You'll def. have to change your sb play as you move up (or course playing 1 or 2 tables that could take years
) but I can see where it would work with the combo of factors at 5nl.
BelgoSuisse
Legend
Silver Level
Wow, walls of text in this thread.
My take on things above: i think people should actually never play below 10nl. 2nl and 5nl will just teach you really bad habits that will be excessively expensive to get rid of as you move up.
My take on things above: i think people should actually never play below 10nl. 2nl and 5nl will just teach you really bad habits that will be excessively expensive to get rid of as you move up.
eNTy
Legend
Silver Level
so true, i was a mad man at 10nl and below
blowing people off hands hardcore barreling like a monkey but it worked there
evidence: a massive red line belgo-worthy but an even bigger losing blue line.
got me into serious trouble at 25nl and 50nl later on
seem to have finally changed that though
http://www.splitsuit.com/betsizing
good concept video
blowing people off hands hardcore barreling like a monkey but it worked there
evidence: a massive red line belgo-worthy but an even bigger losing blue line.
got me into serious trouble at 25nl and 50nl later on
seem to have finally changed that though
http://www.splitsuit.com/betsizing
good concept video
C
cAPSLOCK
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Wow, walls of text in this thread.
My take on things above: i think people should actually never play below 10nl. 2nl and 5nl will just teach you really bad habits that will be excessively expensive to get rid of as you move up.
But I have a very myopic view of poker (perhaps life in general?) in which I can only see the way I play the game, and the stakes where I play as valid.
At the moment playing at higher stakes would violate my bankroll requirements. I make up for my infantile level of play by being very nitty in the bankroll side of things.
I will only become capable of seeing things from your perspective if and when it becomes my own.
Until then, trying to explain "the true way of poker (r)" to me is like trying to teach a poodle to do multiplication.
Pray for me.
Caseace48
Rock Star
Silver Level
Yeah noticed that filter after I made the post, havnt taken the time to do the quick math...mostly because I don;t care that much about hourly rate TBH. Just trying to unlock supernova by November and keep beating 50NL for 5bb/100+ until I'm rolled for 100NL.
PS glad to see you back in the game ENTY
Caseace48
Rock Star
Silver Level
By the way this thread is maaaaaaaaaaadnesssss lol
Goal of poker playing experience = Make Moniez and Move up Stakes
Plain and simple, if you can win one way at a lower limit and re-adjust at a higher good for you. If you can't then don't try. If you try and fail...well thats your fault for underestimating bad habits learned. In either case, its not really worth the fundamental argument about sample size because its all relative to people normal volumes IMO. And my even further personal opinion is that anything lower then 50k doesn't mean anything to me. I've put in almost 100k at 50NL and still feel like its not a true representation.
I remember reading a post from Belgo stating that poker is a contiously changing game and to be a winner you need to keep changing also. You can be a winner one day and a loser the next, its quite that simple.
Anyway....I'm not that smartest poster here when it comes to analyzing HUDs or sample sizes, I just know how to do what I do and work hard at it. GL at the tables and maybe this thread will be sane soon again:joyman:
Goal of poker playing experience = Make Moniez and Move up Stakes
Plain and simple, if you can win one way at a lower limit and re-adjust at a higher good for you. If you can't then don't try. If you try and fail...well thats your fault for underestimating bad habits learned. In either case, its not really worth the fundamental argument about sample size because its all relative to people normal volumes IMO. And my even further personal opinion is that anything lower then 50k doesn't mean anything to me
. I've put in almost 100k at 50NL and still feel like its not a true representation.I remember reading a post from Belgo stating that poker is a contiously changing game and to be a winner you need to keep changing also. You can be a winner one day and a loser the next, its quite that simple.
Anyway....I'm not that smartest poster here when it comes to analyzing HUDs or sample sizes, I just know how to do what I do and work hard at it. GL at the tables and maybe this thread will be sane soon again:joyman:
RogueRivered
Visionary
Silver Level
J
Johnnybmoto
Rock Star
Silver Level
Think I played this one pretty decent. He had been calling down with stuff like this all night.
pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com
BB ($1.07)
UTG ($3.85)
UTG+1 ($4.73)
Hero (MP1) ($5.31)
MP2 ($4.94)
CO ($1.50)
Button ($3.03)
SB ($4.53)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 10
, 10
UTG bets $0.14, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.32, 5 folds, UTG calls $0.18
Flop: ($0.69) 5
, 9
, Q
(2 players)
UTG bets $0.23, Hero raises to $0.50, UTG calls $0.27
Turn: ($1.69) Q
(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1, UTG calls $1
River: ($3.69) 9
(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3.49 (All-In), UTG calls $2.03 (All-In)
Total pot: $7.75 | Rake: $0.35
Results:
UTG had K
, A
(two pair, Queens and nines).
Hero had 10
, 10
(two pair, Queens and tens).
Outcome: Hero won $7.40
pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com
BB ($1.07)
UTG ($3.85)
UTG+1 ($4.73)
Hero (MP1) ($5.31)
MP2 ($4.94)
CO ($1.50)
Button ($3.03)
SB ($4.53)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 10
UTG bets $0.14, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.32, 5 folds, UTG calls $0.18
Flop: ($0.69) 5
UTG bets $0.23, Hero raises to $0.50, UTG calls $0.27
Turn: ($1.69) Q
UTG checks, Hero bets $1, UTG calls $1
River: ($3.69) 9
UTG checks, Hero bets $3.49 (All-In), UTG calls $2.03 (All-In)
Total pot: $7.75 | Rake: $0.35
Results:
UTG had K
Hero had 10
Outcome: Hero won $7.40
Caseace48
Rock Star
Silver Level
Think I played this one pretty decent. He had been calling down with stuff like this all night.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com
BB ($1.07)
UTG ($3.85)
UTG+1 ($4.73)
Hero (MP1) ($5.31)
MP2 ($4.94)
CO ($1.50)
Button ($3.03)
SB ($4.53)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 10, 10
UTG bets $0.14, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.32, 5 folds, UTG calls $0.18
Flop: ($0.69) 5, 9, Q(2 players)
UTG bets $0.23, Hero raises to $0.50, UTG calls $0.27
Turn: ($1.69) Q(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1, UTG calls $1
River: ($3.69) 9(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3.49 (All-In), UTG calls $2.03 (All-In)
Total pot: $7.75 | Rake: $0.35
Results:
UTG had K, A(two pair, Queens and nines).
Hero had 10, 10(two pair, Queens and tens).
Outcome: Hero won $7.40
I'd like to see the stats to decide fully if you have any? I think it could go either way since its 2NL.
PS I love +8 BI sessions!
J
Johnnybmoto
Rock Star
Silver Level
I don't have pokertracker on this computer and was just going on what I had observed. He had shown down something like this at least 6-7 times on scarry boards like that.