Ask Mental Game Coach Jared Tendler

[Jared Tendler]

Actually. That little bit helped. Thank you.

Great to hear. Your welcome.

 

[the lab man]

To answer your question - yes the brain does work like muscles, so you can train them in a similar way. Just as muscles can be trained to perform many things, so to can the brain and its your goals that determine how you work out. As it relates to poker, early on I think it's a good thing to mix it up. Use short sessions with few tables to work on your thought process, use long sessions to work on grinding and playing solid poker, etc. Really depends on what you're working towards.

Just remember that the most benefit in terms of training effect that happens when working out occurs when under the toughest circumstances - in the case of weight lifting that's the end of your set. When it's the toughest you have the most to gain. Mentally it's the same way and you have to fight for it, just like you would those last few reps. Then make sure you rest. The adaptations in the brain or in the muscles happens when you rest - the workout is simply saying what you want.

This makes great sense TY

 

[wrung24]

Hey Jared.

I made a new thread with a problem I'm having and Poker-orifice gave me the good idea of posting it here. Here is the entire post :

Well guys today is the day I found out i'm pretty bad at poker. I haven't played a very big amount of hands but I just know it, but i'm almost sure that it's not just a pure poker problem.

I study the game quite hard, maybe too hard sometimes, i'm always on the lookout for a new concept to add to my game.

My biggest problem is by far a mental problem, I just cannot have a 200 hand session (1 or 2 tables) that doesn't contain a couple of very big and obvious mistakes, I don't know where it comes from and it's just really annoying. I don't think it's really a patience problem, I can go for quite a while without playing a hand and it doesn't really bother me.

I'm starting to think that your mindset in everyday life has a huge impact on how you act at the poker table but I just can't find the link between the two, I'm a fairly happy guy with maybe a bit of a pessimistic attitude. Are all of you good players out there happy and calm people ? Do your log on to your room thinking you could beat anybody ?

How come I still make that bad call with TPTK even when I'm 99% certain that he has an overpair (an example). I mean sometimes I just start laughing so hard when I review my hands, i'm like wow thats a bad play, but I still go out and make similar mistakes the very next session.

I just started playing not too long ago so maybe I should just give it some time so that I can slowly stop making the mistakes I clearly see but can't seem to fix.

Are there any CCers out there that really have managed to get a firm grasp on the mental side of poker who have a few tips ? Any insight on how to get in the zone (if that zone exists) would be welcome. Also how do you guys actually use what you see during reviews on the table the next time ?

BTW I play 2nl almost all the time so i'm maybe thinking I could get away with a few more mistakes playing SNGs so maybe I should try that with the very little bankroll I have left (didn't deposit, up to ~22$, now down to about 6$)

Thanks in advance

 

[Makwa]

Great stuff, I love visiting this thread, txs Jared! :hello:

(BTW lots of questions/problems get answered here, I don't really need to add any now... )

 

[Jared Tendler]

Hey Jared.

I made a new thread with a problem I'm having and Poker-orifice gave me the good idea of posting it here. Here is the entire post :

Well guys today is the day I found out i'm pretty bad at poker. I haven't played a very big amount of hands but I just know it, but i'm almost sure that it's not just a pure poker problem.

I study the game quite hard, maybe too hard sometimes, i'm always on the lookout for a new concept to add to my game.

My biggest problem is by far a mental problem, I just cannot have a 200 hand session (1 or 2 tables) that doesn't contain a couple of very big and obvious mistakes, I don't know where it comes from and it's just really annoying. I don't think it's really a patience problem, I can go for quite a while without playing a hand and it doesn't really bother me.

I'm starting to think that your mindset in everyday life has a huge impact on how you act at the poker table but I just can't find the link between the two, I'm a fairly happy guy with maybe a bit of a pessimistic attitude. Are all of you good players out there happy and calm people ? Do your log on to your room thinking you could beat anybody ?

How come I still make that bad call with TPTK even when I'm 99% certain that he has an overpair (an example). I mean sometimes I just start laughing so hard when I review my hands, i'm like wow thats a bad play, but I still go out and make similar mistakes the very next session.

I just started playing not too long ago so maybe I should just give it some time so that I can slowly stop making the mistakes I clearly see but can't seem to fix.

Are there any CCers out there that really have managed to get a firm grasp on the mental side of poker who have a few tips ? Any insight on how to get in the zone (if that zone exists) would be welcome. Also how do you guys actually use what you see during reviews on the table the next time ?

BTW I play 2nl almost all the time so i'm maybe thinking I could get away with a few more mistakes playing SNGs so maybe I should try that with the very little bankroll I have left (didn't deposit, up to ~22$, now down to about 6$)

Thanks in advance

Hey Wrung,

The problem you're having here is a common one among new players who try to learn too much too fast. When you overload the brain with too much new stuff, it requires you to think about too much when your actually playing, and there are guaranteed to be times when you can't think about it all, or you can't pull the trigger to fold when you know your beat. Everyone has a limit to how much you can think about when their playing, it isn't just you. The way that you are able to think over more, and why better players are better, is that they have knowledge trained to a level where they are automatic. It's become an ingrained habit and it's guaranteed to show up all the time.

If you are instead cramming your brain full of information, trying to constantly learn new things over mastering what you are currently working on, they you overwhelm yourself with too much and don't know which way is up. When you master the basics, it provides the foundation for you to easily add to it with new stuff.

My advice is to slow down, identify you biggest mistakes, and spend a week on each one. Make sure that each time you play you correct that mistake. If they mistakes are more complex you may need longer, or more basic you may need shorter amount of time. But no matter what the end results will show you where that knowledge is in the process of being learned. If it doesn't show up, if you make that mistake again, you have not learned it yet. Analyze the hand to find out why you made the mistake, what details were missed, etc, take notes, and study it. Only when the correction to that mistake happens consistently and under difficult situations for you (tired, big pot, tilting, etc) can you prove that you've learned it.

Learning is a process with mastery being the finish line. If you focus on too much too soon, some skills fail to reach the finish line causes all the mental game issues you're experiencing now.

Does this all make sense?

 

[Jared Tendler]

Great stuff, I love visiting this thread, txs Jared! :hello:

(BTW lots of questions/problems get answered here, I don't really need to add any now... )

Thanks for saying so Makwa!

 

[wrung24]

Hi Jared,

It does indeed make sense and I understand what you're telling me. I have this problem in a few parts of my life, the amount of information that you get on the internet these days is just crazy.

I'll try to take my poker game and what i'm adding to it slowly from now on. I guess the key is to understand the thought process and not the raw information that is given, a tip that I here from some good players on this site but that I just can't use properly yet.

Thank you very much for the all the advice you give on this thread.

 

[dg1267]

Jared, I'm having volume issues. I'm getting coached and I'm supposed to be playing 75 games per week (sng's). That's not that many. But when I'm winning, I can play 130 per week. When I'm losing, I have a tough time getting 50 per week.

I get in the mood to play poker and tell myself I'm not leaving until I do 3 sets of 6 games. But after the first set I just can't make myself load up another 6. I'll get up away from the desk and grab a drink, go to the bathroom, whatever and tell myself I'm coming back to play. But as soon as I sit down I go to Cardschat or Facebook or check my email and never get around to playing again.

I know sng's are a game of volume and that the more volume I put in the better off I'll be, but I just can't make myself do it. How can I make it to where I'm more apt to set a goal and stick with it? It feels like my attempts at trying to quit smoking. I really want to do it, I just can't do it.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Hi Jared,

It does indeed make sense and I understand what you're telling me. I have this problem in a few parts of my life, the amount of information that you get on the internet these days is just crazy.

I'll try to take my poker game and what i'm adding to it slowly from now on. I guess the key is to understand the thought process and not the raw information that is given, a tip that I here from some good players on this site but that I just can't use properly yet.

Thank you very much for the all the advice you give on this thread.

You'll get it, just keep working with it. It's a process and one that works better with continual attention, rather than large infrequent chunks. Meaning you'll get WAY more out of doing 15min 6 days a week than 2 hours one day. Even if you are playing, just continually thinking is a form that the brain is much more receptive to. Otherwise you're cramming and hoping the important stuff sticks, when the stuff that sticks has more to do with what's interesting to you at that time and not what's more important.

You're right the amount of info on the web in general is intense. I have a theory that for many people Attentional problems are related to being overloaded with information and not enough of an ability to decide what to focus on, rather than a pure neurological disorder as ADD is. Anyway, random thought.

Yw, glad to hear my advice is helpful to you.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Jared, I'm having volume issues. I'm getting coached and I'm supposed to be playing 75 games per week (sng's). That's not that many. But when I'm winning, I can play 130 per week. When I'm losing, I have a tough time getting 50 per week.

I get in the mood to play poker and tell myself I'm not leaving until I do 3 sets of 6 games. But after the first set I just can't make myself load up another 6. I'll get up away from the desk and grab a drink, go to the bathroom, whatever and tell myself I'm coming back to play. But as soon as I sit down I go to Cardschat or Facebook or check my email and never get around to playing again.

I know sng's are a game of volume and that the more volume I put in the better off I'll be, but I just can't make myself do it. How can I make it to where I'm more apt to set a goal and stick with it? It feels like my attempts at trying to quit smoking. I really want to do it, I just can't do it.

Hey DG, can you explain more about what goes through your mind when losing and when trying to get yourself back to play. Are you demoralized? Hopeless? Angry? etc...at a deeper level. Obviously you want to do it, but it's a fight, and to win the argument we need to better understand what you're up against.

 

[dg1267]

I think demoralized and angry could pretty much cover it. Especially when I keep running into the top of their range or their hitting runner runners against me.

The other day I loaded 6 games up first thing in the morning. By the end of them I had been runner runner'd 4 times to either be knocked out or crippled. After that I didn't play the rest of the day. And I know SnG's are a volume game, but I'm running really close to busting out now and it's just tough going through the downswings. And getting beat by good hands or good plays doesn't bother me. It's when they either shouldn't be in the hand at all or was just being a station and got lucky that I tend to go off the handle.

 

[pat3392]

Hello Jared! I really admire your line of work, have always been interested in how the brain works and how I can use that knowledge to become more efficient at tasks, I'm a not so serious perfectionist(or maybe that's another way of saying a high achiever?) Anyway, thanks for this opportunity! I've got a few questions I hope you don't mind.... Luckly a lot of them where answered by reading through this thread

A little while back I was playing at the biggest live tournament I had ever been in. I decided to play tight early to develop reads, then change gears and abuse my tight image. Eventually a rather loose/semi spastic player decided to play back at me via a expensive bluff; I managed to see through it though and called with my marginal hand. I felt incredibly proud about this since I knew the old me would have folded here. The other players at the table were also impressed and this made me feel quite proud; my father used to put a lot of pressure on me to succeed and basically called me stupid. Because of this I'm insecure/egotistical, although it's something I'm working on.

With my quiet analytical persona at the table, my confused opponents that now realized it would be hard to bluff me, the players at the table became scared of me. Not so long afterwards I managed to double up with the other big stack which made me a huge chip leader. I was in complete control of the table and felt immensely proud, to the point that I was becoming cocky. I felt so happy, probably because I've put a lot of effort into becoming good at poker. The chips I had where rewarding because they are a reflection of the good plays I made(I'm still result orientated, I don't completely understand variance yet; it's one thing to understand the theory and another to actually understand it) and hence are a ego-booster. I've had this type of feelings a few times with poker but they have always been when I have actually won the tournament. I don't know if I felt invincible, but I definitely felt superior poker wise. I knew that this would influence my decisions and wasn't sure how to control it and how much it would influence them. There was a break in 20 minutes so I decided to tighten up to avoid making a mistake, which in turn was a mistake because I missed out on lots of opportunity's to out-play my opponents.


Sometimes when I am in the deep stages of the tournaments I make seemingly less than optimal folds when I probably should have pushed. I am not certain if the fold is optimal so a simple solution would be to study the push/fold math. However, even though I'm fairly sure that the push is still best I fold, I think due to fear, uncertainty has nurtured the fear though. This fear only arises in not so clear decisions, usually when every action I take will be -EV. Maybe I'm afraid of making the wrong move because I am not scared of shoving garbage if I know it is +EV.

I think I'm more intimated by certain players. I play live with bad players who don't understand the math of the game; they play their cards and don't understand why I push with garbage. This misunderstanding is greeted with all sorts of negative remarks/gestures; I probably have a fear of looking bad. I used to be harassed a fair bit as a child. Because of this, I have probably associated negative criticism as a thing to avoid and fear may be the way it is associated, if that makes sense.

I'm more intimidated by the players who will call me lightly, either the ones who are naturally very loose, or the ones who constantly remind me that they will call me shoves lightly(they say this due to my reputation) So basically I don't mind pushing with garbage if I know their calling range is tight, just when it is uncertain I am a bit scared.

Now that I think about it a bit more, I think I know the main reason why. When I first started playing poker I was fairly timid and would blind of every game. This was a huge error in my game and the main reason I was met with initial bad results, which used to bother me because my friend who I always thought was much worse than me was doing a lot better. Being blinded of follows feelings of hopelessness; I know that I'm most likely not going to get any good cards but don't think there is anything else I can do. I learned to steal blinds via shoves so that I would not blind of and consequently, avoid those bad feelings.

When I think I'm going to be call lightly I don't think I can push. I don't know what else to do and the fear starts to arise. There's a obvious solution here(learn more) and am not sure if there are any magical words you can give. It doesn't matter that much if you can't; I find that if I understand the way I do such things I get over them.


I'm not that good at concentrating for large periods of time(actually I'm fairly good but have high standards for myself =/) and am planning to go the local casino to play poker from about 9 PM to 5 AM, mainly due to it's reputation for having reckless drunks gambling there at that time. Any general advice for staying with my A game?


If I'm feeling fairly tired but have a game coming up soon(let's say about 45 mins), should I rest my eyes for a bit?



Sorry for making the post so long. Thanks in advance!!

 

[Jared Tendler]

I think demoralized and angry could pretty much cover it. Especially when I keep running into the top of their range or their hitting runner runners against me.

The other day I loaded 6 games up first thing in the morning. By the end of them I had been runner runner'd 4 times to either be knocked out or crippled. After that I didn't play the rest of the day. And I know SnG's are a volume game, but I'm running really close to busting out now and it's just tough going through the downswings. And getting beat by good hands or good plays doesn't bother me. It's when they either shouldn't be in the hand at all or was just being a station and got lucky that I tend to go off the handle.

Well if you're close to busting out it makes sense why you're under so much pressure to win right now, and why every think that shouldn't happen causes so much frustration. So it sounds like those are the two parts, is it practical or possible to make adjustments to the stakes your playing or to get staked? Easing some of the pressure is an important part.

The second - when things that 'shouldn't' happen do happen - comes down to how you deal with the unexpected. Sounds like in general you do fine when what is supposed to happen does, but when not, you have major trouble. Sometimes this can be related to a confidence thing where the unexpected makes you question your ability - like you should be able to know. Or it can be an anxiety thing where the uncertainty makes you feel dumb, stupid or hopeless like you'll never figure this game out. They are all somewhat related so some overlap is probable.

The bottom line is that it's impossible to predict poker with 100% certainty. Logically of course you know this, but your emotions are trying to protect against the previously mentioned underlying problems. Dealing with uncertainty is much easier the more that your doing everything you can to reduce it. I'm guessing these losses are affecting how you work on your game, and at a minimum if you can do more work rather than wallow in the loss, then you are taking control of something you can actually control, and reduce the desire to predict something you can't.

 

[dg1267]

Well if you're close to busting out it makes sense why you're under so much pressure to win right now, and why every think that shouldn't happen causes so much frustration. So it sounds like those are the two parts, is it practical or possible to make adjustments to the stakes your playing or to get staked? Easing some of the pressure is an important part.

The second - when things that 'shouldn't' happen do happen - comes down to how you deal with the unexpected. Sounds like in general you do fine when what is supposed to happen does, but when not, you have major trouble. Sometimes this can be related to a confidence thing where the unexpected makes you question your ability - like you should be able to know. Or it can be an anxiety thing where the uncertainty makes you feel dumb, stupid or hopeless like you'll never figure this game out. They are all somewhat related so some overlap is probable.

The bottom line is that it's impossible to predict poker with 100% certainty. Logically of course you know this, but your emotions are trying to protect against the previously mentioned underlying problems. Dealing with uncertainty is much easier the more that your doing everything you can to reduce it. I'm guessing these losses are affecting how you work on your game, and at a minimum if you can do more work rather than wallow in the loss, then you are taking control of something you can actually control, and reduce the desire to predict something you can't.

I do try not to think about how close I am to busting, but that's tough. Getting staked is probably not an option, as I don't have enough volume/winnings yet to make someone comfortable doing that. I could move down in stakes, but right now I'm playing $2 SnG's and really don't have any want at all to move to the $1 stakes. I think that would take a big, fat crap on what little confidence I do have (hello pride). But it's also a matter of my coaching deal.

But I do find it much harder to get any study time when I'm sucking eggs. I bought SnG Wizard and haven't even really tried much on learning to use it. I've also pretty much stopped watching strat vids as well. When I get pissed, the easiest thing is to just get away from the computer and watch tv. But I'll work on that and try to get into a habit of studying instead. I've had some offers from members here to teach me how to use Wizard, but just haven't been in the mood to do it. I'll get that done asap as well and see how it goes.

Thanks again for your time, Jared.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Hello Jared! I really admire your line of work, have always been interested in how the brain works and how I can use that knowledge to become more efficient at tasks, I'm a not so serious perfectionist(or maybe that's another way of saying a high achiever?) Anyway, thanks for this opportunity! I've got a few questions I hope you don't mind.... Luckly a lot of them where answered by reading through this thread

A little while back I was playing at the biggest live tournament I had ever been in. I decided to play tight early to develop reads, then change gears and abuse my tight image. Eventually a rather loose/semi spastic player decided to play back at me via a expensive bluff; I managed to see through it though and called with my marginal hand. I felt incredibly proud about this since I knew the old me would have folded here. The other players at the table were also impressed and this made me feel quite proud; my father used to put a lot of pressure on me to succeed and basically called me stupid. Because of this I'm insecure/egotistical, although it's something I'm working on.

With my quiet analytical persona at the table, my confused opponents that now realized it would be hard to bluff me, the players at the table became scared of me. Not so long afterwards I managed to double up with the other big stack which made me a huge chip leader. I was in complete control of the table and felt immensely proud, to the point that I was becoming cocky. I felt so happy, probably because I've put a lot of effort into becoming good at poker. The chips I had where rewarding because they are a reflection of the good plays I made(I'm still result orientated, I don't completely understand variance yet; it's one thing to understand the theory and another to actually understand it) and hence are a ego-booster. I've had this type of feelings a few times with poker but they have always been when I have actually won the tournament. I don't know if I felt invincible, but I definitely felt superior poker wise. I knew that this would influence my decisions and wasn't sure how to control it and how much it would influence them. There was a break in 20 minutes so I decided to tighten up to avoid making a mistake, which in turn was a mistake because I missed out on lots of opportunity's to out-play my opponents.

You also protected your ass from making it worse. You chose the lesser of the two mistakes and that is not a mistake, that's sound rationale. Ideal - no - but given the reality of your mindset and your current ability to manage it - it actually was ideal.

Sometimes when I am in the deep stages of the tournaments I make seemingly less than optimal folds when I probably should have pushed. I am not certain if the fold is optimal so a simple solution would be to study the push/fold math. However, even though I'm fairly sure that the push is still best I fold, I think due to fear, uncertainty has nurtured the fear though. This fear only arises in not so clear decisions, usually when every action I take will be -EV. Maybe I'm afraid of making the wrong move because I am not scared of shoving garbage if I know it is +EV.

I think I'm more intimated by certain players. I play live with bad players who don't understand the math of the game; they play their cards and don't understand why I push with garbage. This misunderstanding is greeted with all sorts of negative remarks/gestures; I probably have a fear of looking bad. I used to be harassed a fair bit as a child. Because of this, I have probably associated negative criticism as a thing to avoid and fear may be the way it is associated, if that makes sense.

I'm more intimidated by the players who will call me lightly, either the ones who are naturally very loose, or the ones who constantly remind me that they will call me shoves lightly(they say this due to my reputation) So basically I don't mind pushing with garbage if I know their calling range is tight, just when it is uncertain I am a bit scared.

Now that I think about it a bit more, I think I know the main reason why. When I first started playing poker I was fairly timid and would blind of every game. This was a huge error in my game and the main reason I was met with initial bad results, which used to bother me because my friend who I always thought was much worse than me was doing a lot better. Being blinded of follows feelings of hopelessness; I know that I'm most likely not going to get any good cards but don't think there is anything else I can do. I learned to steal blinds via shoves so that I would not blind of and consequently, avoid those bad feelings.

When I think I'm going to be call lightly I don't think I can push. I don't know what else to do and the fear starts to arise. There's a obvious solution here(learn more) and am not sure if there are any magical words you can give. It doesn't matter that much if you can't; I find that if I understand the way I do such things I get over them.


I'm not that good at concentrating for large periods of time(actually I'm fairly good but have high standards for myself =/) and am planning to go the local casino to play poker from about 9 PM to 5 AM, mainly due to it's reputation for having reckless drunks gambling there at that time. Any general advice for staying with my A game?


If I'm feeling fairly tired but have a game coming up soon(let's say about 45 mins), should I rest my eyes for a bit?



Sorry for making the post so long. Thanks in advance!!

Hi Pat, thanks for respect. I work hard to bring more credibility to my field, and it's great to talk with players already convinced of it's merits.

The ending of your post sounded somewhat time sensitive, but it's clear to me that the bulk of what you've written is ongoing. Also these lines..."There's a obvious solution here(learn more) and am not sure if there are any magical words you can give. It doesn't matter that much if you can't; I find that if I understand the way I do such things I get over them." suggest to me that a little perspective can go a long way.

The solution here is to resolve the past. When you find yourself in spots where the answer isn't 100% certain - it exposes your difficulty dealing with the unknown or being unsure. Yes, you can solve this specific spot with more learning, but once you do that, the issue gets moved to the next spot you don't know. Learning is continual. The next thing you need to learn is how to become more comfortable not knowing.

Part of that comes from your high expectations. Most certainly created from the past you described - being called stupid or made fun of. As a way of compensating for this you worked harder and harder. It's clear that you've turned these negative experiences into a positive, which can only happen when these negatives are just a small part of your overall childhood. Of course they standout because it hurts and now because you're getting into smaller and smaller edges in poker - the presence of this old emotion is getting in the way for how you handle the unknown.

If you'd like to post more specifically on why you have trouble with it, feel free. My suspicion at this point is that it is born from an expectation that you should have already known the right answer. That if you already knew, you would have avoided ridecule, and in poker would always have the right answer. The fundamental reason this is flawed is that it believes that there is a fixed point where you can arrive a permanent perfection. Where you have it all figured out forever. What you described early on about the build up of your tournament play, fits with this perfectly. You are playing perfect poker - or damn near close to it, but then you start to elevate into a realm where you no longer have to be as diligent in focusing - because when your moving towards that kind of perfection it's illogical for you to need to.

Does this fit for you?

Btw - made one note in the above, bc I thought it was important to challenge your logic.

 

[Jared Tendler]

I do try not to think about how close I am to busting, but that's tough. Getting staked is probably not an option, as I don't have enough volume/winnings yet to make someone comfortable doing that. I could move down in stakes, but right now I'm playing $2 SnG's and really don't have any want at all to move to the $1 stakes. I think that would take a big, fat crap on what little confidence I do have (hello pride). But it's also a matter of my coaching deal.

But I do find it much harder to get any study time when I'm sucking eggs. I bought SnG Wizard and haven't even really tried much on learning to use it. I've also pretty much stopped watching strat vids as well. When I get pissed, the easiest thing is to just get away from the computer and watch tv. But I'll work on that and try to get into a habit of studying instead. I've had some offers from members here to teach me how to use Wizard, but just haven't been in the mood to do it. I'll get that done asap as well and see how it goes.

Thanks again for your time, Jared.

Trying to put it out of your mind completely is tough for sure. Make me think about Tiger Woods and his divorce. So much was made about how he used to be able to block so many of the on course distractions out, but with the heavy emotional stuff in his personal life, he couldn't do it and the impact on his golf is huge.

Obviously what you're trying to block out is very different, my point is simply that trying and doing are two totally different things. My advice is to develop a routine designed to create a bubble around actually playing poker where you remind your mind that it can just focus on playing. The threat of busting is real, and the BEST way that you can confront it head on is by playing as well as you can, AND keeping your emotions in check as best as you can when poker is shitting on you. The same holds for your study time.

Basically all of your actions in the second paragraph indicate that you are giving up control of your game when poker gets hard. If you really want to make this work, you have to fighting your way through. There is no other way. Take it head on and make small progress every day. You can't take it all on, but if you work on your game for 30min more than usual, or play one more SnG and control your emotions slightly better, that's progress and progress you can build future progress on.

 

[dg1267]

Oh cool, so I'm the Tiger Woods of poker? (just kidding) I do understand and even after my last post I kind of had it figured out what you would say. I had one of the better SnG Wizard "wizzes" help me understand the program and show me a few filters I could use to better my game.

This is helping and I'm finding myself actually enjoying my study time for the first time ever. But again, I appreciate your help in this thread immensely. You are great at what you do, and to give your time away for free to help our members is just great.

 

[pat3392]

You also protected your ass from making it worse. You chose the lesser of the two mistakes and that is not a mistake, that's sound rationale. Ideal - no - but given the reality of your mindset and your current ability to manage it - it actually was ideal.

Very true; still, by being aware that it is going to influence my decisions I don't think it would have done so dramatically, particularly if I took my time whenever deciding to do anything. I say this because I was moved to a much, much tougher table after the break



Hi Pat, thanks for respect. I work hard to bring more credibility to my field, and it's great to talk with players already convinced of it's merits.

The ending of your post sounded somewhat time sensitive, but it's clear to me that the bulk of what you've written is ongoing. Also these lines..."There's a obvious solution here(learn more) and am not sure if there are any magical words you can give. It doesn't matter that much if you can't; I find that if I understand the way I do such things I get over them." suggest to me that a little perspective can go a long way.

heh it sure does

The solution here is to resolve the past. When you find yourself in spots where the answer isn't 100% certain - it exposes your difficulty dealing with the unknown or being unsure. Yes, you can solve this specific spot with more learning, but once you do that, the issue gets moved to the next spot you don't know. Learning is continual. The next thing you need to learn is how to become more comfortable not knowing.

Part of that comes from your high expectations. Most certainly created from the past you described - being called stupid or made fun of. As a way of compensating for this you worked harder and harder. It's clear that you've turned these negative experiences into a positive, which can only happen when these negatives are just a small part of your overall childhood. Of course they standout because it hurts and now because you're getting into smaller and smaller edges in poker - the presence of this old emotion is getting in the way for how you handle the unknown.

If you'd like to post more specifically on why you have trouble with it, feel free. My suspicion at this point is that it is born from an expectation that you should have already known the right answer. That if you already knew, you would have avoided ridecule, and in poker would always have the right answer. The fundamental reason this is flawed is that it believes that there is a fixed point where you can arrive a permanent perfection. Where you have it all figured out forever. What you described early on about the build up of your tournament play, fits with this perfectly. You are playing perfect poker - or damn near close to it, but then you start to elevate into a realm where you no longer have to be as diligent in focusing - because when your moving towards that kind of perfection it's illogical for you to need to.

Does this fit for you?

Btw - made one note in the above, bc I thought it was important to challenge your logic.

Wow, very insightful. These words hit hard, it's kind of amazing really that from a few words you understood so much.

I think your suspicion is basically spot on, it all fits in very well, not just with poker but other things as well. However, I'm not sure if the main drive behind it all is to avoid ridicule; that is a big motive but I think I also have something to prove, to myself and others.

I remember when I won this live tournament I felt immensely proud. Now that I look back that night was a changing point in my game; basically, I learnt to read people that night, which allowed me to abuse the hell out of the final table. I won a ton of cash, told by a respectable player that I played very well and a bunch of other trivial things happened.

The reason why I felt proud is the same for why I feel bad when I'm faced with ridicule and why I felt superior in that other tournament. This "ego" part of me is creating leaks. Should I not allow myself to be proud, since all it's doing really is fueling my ego? It's silly how I feel proud for playing well/getting good cards; in reality, I played well because I put a lot of time into getting better and I had no control over the cards.

Maybe when I'm feeling proud or even ashamed, I should analysis why. Go over the factors that made me do well/bad. At that point if I still feel good/bad I should accept it, as long as I'm aware of the factors that influenced whatever happened. This should(hopefully) help stop me from having a unrealistic view of my abilities and any potential tilt problems that may arise. What's your opinion on this?


Thanks a lot for the great response!

 

[Jared Tendler]

Oh cool, so I'm the Tiger Woods of poker? (just kidding) I do understand and even after my last post I kind of had it figured out what you would say. I had one of the better SnG Wizard "wizzes" help me understand the program and show me a few filters I could use to better my game.

This is helping and I'm finding myself actually enjoying my study time for the first time ever. But again, I appreciate your help in this thread immensely. You are great at what you do, and to give your time away for free to help our members is just great.

Lol! Thanks DG, I work really hard and knowing my advice is helpful is great to hear. I'm honestly not giving my time away - I learn a lot from doing these threads - communicating with people in a different format, testing my assumptions, synthesizing my program - on top of the opportunity to make an impact on players games and build my reputation in the poker community. The goal is for this to be a win/win - and it's great to know what that goal has been met.

 

[belerophon]

Jared, thanks for this interesting and helpful thread, I'm slowly making my way through it.

I noticed a common theme of tilt where you need a some amount of info to assess the root cause of that individual's behavior.

I've been finding that just being introspective enough to ask myself these questions has been leading me to the cause of my behavior but I don't know if I like the answers I'm giving myself.

My basic answer is that I tilt because I blame some higher power for screwing me over time and again during a bad spell. I can handle losing when it's my mistake but when I get it in good and lose repeatedly I have trouble handling it.

Now strangely.. I'm kind of ok with my tilt with regards to my poker playing. I normally stop and pet the cat and go and relax for awhile when it's bad. I've learned to accept it as a leak I need to work on. Yesterday however and it's been building for awhile I was physically mad.... spewing obscenities and hitting my chair.
This is really unlike me and I've noticed on bad days that the anger lingers and has me concerned.

I've been wondering if I'm not mentally preparing myself ahead of time for the possibility of a bad day. FYI I win more than I lose and am in my 3rd year of playing.
Are there general methods or questions out there that I should look into utilizing before a poker session?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Wow, very insightful. These words hit hard, it's kind of amazing really that from a few words you understood so much.

I think your suspicion is basically spot on, it all fits in very well, not just with poker but other things as well. However, I'm not sure if the main drive behind it all is to avoid ridicule; that is a big motive but I think I also have something to prove, to myself and others.

I remember when I won this live tournament I felt immensely proud. Now that I look back that night was a changing point in my game; basically, I learnt to read people that night, which allowed me to abuse the hell out of the final table. I won a ton of cash, told by a respectable player that I played very well and a bunch of other trivial things happened.

The reason why I felt proud is the same for why I feel bad when I'm faced with ridicule and why I felt superior in that other tournament. This "ego" part of me is creating leaks. Should I not allow myself to be proud, since all it's doing really is fueling my ego? It's silly how I feel proud for playing well/getting good cards; in reality, I played well because I put a lot of time into getting better and I had no control over the cards.

Maybe when I'm feeling proud or even ashamed, I should analysis why. Go over the factors that made me do well/bad. At that point if I still feel good/bad I should accept it, as long as I'm aware of the factors that influenced whatever happened. This should(hopefully) help stop me from having a unrealistic view of my abilities and any potential tilt problems that may arise. What's your opinion on this?


Thanks a lot for the great response!

Yw! Great to know I hit the mark. I honesty enjoy the challenge of trying to deduce the underlying causes of issues from players' posts, so really it's the accumulation of that skill and a deeper understanding of the underlying issues that allows me to do that. It's really no different than what you're able to do in putting players on hand ranges, and I mention my deal, because I think you are really close to the points you made in your last paragraph.

The first step is to begin understanding why it is logical that you would make those mistake - either feeling too proud or ashamed. The next step is not just to accept how you feel, it's to break the faulty logic that allowed these mental game errors to occur. Very often the what causes you to feel too good, and too bad is the same issue, just emerging in two different ways based on the circumstances. My suspicision is that it has to do with believing that your skill had more to do with the outcome than it actually did. So if you believe good variance is you - your confidence/pride is inflated. If you believe bad variance is you - your confidence/shame is deflated.

The key then is to improve 1) Recognizing specifically what makes you a skilled player, 2) Subtle variance, 3) Your opponents skill level.

All players already have skill in these three areas - the question is how strong is it. They all work together, and I've been looking for a good name for them - any ideas?

Let me know if this helps.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Jared, thanks for this interesting and helpful thread, I'm slowly making my way through it.

I noticed a common theme of tilt where you need a some amount of info to assess the root cause of that individual's behavior.

I've been finding that just being introspective enough to ask myself these questions has been leading me to the cause of my behavior but I don't know if I like the answers I'm giving myself.

My basic answer is that I tilt because I blame some higher power for screwing me over time and again during a bad spell. I can handle losing when it's my mistake but when I get it in good and lose repeatedly I have trouble handling it.

Now strangely.. I'm kind of ok with my tilt with regards to my poker playing. I normally stop and pet the cat and go and relax for awhile when it's bad. I've learned to accept it as a leak I need to work on. Yesterday however and it's been building for awhile I was physically mad.... spewing obscenities and hitting my chair.
This is really unlike me and I've noticed on bad days that the anger lingers and has me concerned.

I've been wondering if I'm not mentally preparing myself ahead of time for the possibility of a bad day. FYI I win more than I lose and am in my 3rd year of playing.
Are there general methods or questions out there that I should look into utilizing before a poker session?

Thanks in advance.

Your welcome, I'm glad to know that it's been helpful and I think your strategy to go through and use the questions I've posed others is a great.

What you're describing is what I call Injustice Tilt. Where basically poker is unfair and your cursed by some higher power and if feels as though the end results are out of your hands no matter what you do.

In explaining why you have the blow up(s) where you act way beyond how you do normally, the basic reason is that it's the consequence of continually stuffing your anger away - eventually the pressure builds and builds and it blows up. The reason I say that you're stuffing it away, is that while stopping and relaxing eases your experience of the anger in that moment, it's not a solution to the problem. It's a temporary way of dealing with it, but it doesn't solve your anger problem.

While we can isolate the issue to feeling cursed, that doesn't mean the solution is obvious. Diagnosing the problem and knowing the solution are two completely different things.

The solution is to resolve the underlying reasons why you feel cursed. When those leaks are fixed, leaks that you have mastered - you're highly skilled at feeling this way - your reaction to getting coolered, or 2 outed is automatically lower. Getting to that point is complex. So to start out just describe in more detail, why you feel cursed or unlucky? What are some of the specific things you said during that blow-up session (this is the really good stuff that helps me to understand the nature of your leak)? What are the warning signs that you're beginning to feel this way normally (checking results, become more aggressive, heat in your head, etc)?

Preparing yourself for the possibility of losing, is a decent strategy if you choose not to answer the above questions. Right now, the solution you imagine to this problem is based on your current understanding and your current understanding of the problem doesn't go far enough to achieve the results you want.

Happy to help you work through this.

Jared

 

[LuckyChippy]

I really would like to get something for myself from this thread as reading through it has shown how much of a help you've been to others and I know mental game is perhaps the biggest part of poker. I'm just going to ramble, bear with me.

I feel I'm quite in control of myself when it comes to tilt, I generally don't get affected by suckouts, but do occasional find myself with subtle tilt. This can either be either from winning or losing and I am getting lots better at figuring out when I'm feeling like this. Sometimes this builds though into that slow burn inside you. I can often get stuck say 6 buy-ins, slight tilt is there, I need to leave, but just one more hand.

The biggest contributing factor all this is when I play bad and lose money. Sometimes I can be doing ok, I'm getting unlucky couple coolers and suckouts, I'm down a few buy-ins but the fish are here and I'm playing fairly well. Boom. I just tried a stupid bluff and now I'm down ANOTHER buy-in and it's through a stupid mistake. I can feel it building and now I'm stuck. I can often break this and leave the session, and I don't go on rampage tilt, not for more than one buy-in anyways, and there's no red mist. Just that itch, that feeling in your stomach, the tapping foot, the quicker breathing. Not good.

I often find when I do something that is obvious tilt, like completely spewing pre-flop, I can make myself leave, I know I need to and there's no point playing anymore. I find dealing with the emotion above difficult though. Any techniques or ideas to move past it or avoid it would be amazing. Or techniques to become more aware if it even.

Sorry about the ramble, I wasn't even sure what I was going to say but it came out ok. I haven't even mentioned my extreme laziness when it comes to playing poker, maybe we can go over that another time haha, it would benefit every area of my life lol. Thanks again.

 

[belerophon]

Thank you for responding. I've read and re-read your response and I'll try my best to provide the detail your asking.


I'm not sure I can accurately express why I feel cursed. I can state emphatically that this is an occasional problem and given time I can remind myself that I am a winning player from a profit perspective.
You asked me about specific things I said during my blow up last week and aside from a long random string of expletives I don't believe I said anything in particular towards my feelings. I was really just beside myself with the number of beats I absorbed over the last few days. In my head I'm wondering a combination of how someone could make such a dumb call and asking myself if I should be more conservative with only a 70% chance of doubling up. I feel I deserve, based on quality decisions, to have quality results. I feel duped and swindled when I suffer a bad beat. I have not placed in the money in my last 17 tournaments.


Only as an example I will share my very last beat which was me with JJ and I lose to QJ after hitting trips on the turn. A 95% shot of winning that hand with one card to go and naturally when the second queen hits on the river... how can he have a boat? odds are so improbable.


Now in and of itself one bad beat does not bother me but I convince myself (sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly) that I could review the bad beats and win some kind of award for them.


But it's more than that. I play an aggressive game but not a loose one. In micro's small balling gets almost zero respect so when I have a 65-70% shot post flop and I know they will ship it with that inside straight draw I can learn to live with those beats. The ones I have trouble with is when I re-raise all in with qq with the second largest stack and the biggest stack insta calls with k-3 off and hits a king or when I have Aces and call someone else's all in. They show Q-rag and hit two pair etc... Again they seem to come in bunches and this has been a bad month. Lifetime however I show a profit on these tournaments. Last month my ROI was around 80% so why can I not focus on that?


I think one of the reasons is my understanding of some of the odds and how some of these bad beats can be so unlikely and yet they come in such long strings.


Maybe I don't truly appreciate how odds work. Maybe if I understood it better... nah... I just get really irate when people make calls that are so out of line of even basic logic.


You asked me about warning signs so I sat down today as I suffered a bad beat and tried to recognize any. Mostly I get a shortness of breath and a dread of seeing cards come down as the suck out continues. I say the f word under my breath once or three times and need to stand up and walk away from the screen. I get some but not a lot of adrenaline but definitely more than I should and I do not know where to direct it. I get extra mad at myself during these times if I make a bad enough mistake to knock me out of a tournament.
I fully recognize also that I've much to learn about my style of play. I know there are trouble points that lead me into these situations.


I'm going to cut myself off here. It's a long answer and maybe I'm going down the wrong path. I feel in answering that I'm basically just complaining about my string of bad luck and not getting anywhere with it but maybe you can provide me with some more insight.


Thank-you so much for taking the time and trouble to read over this. If you can help me get over my bad mood after a bad session my girlfriend will be very happy not to mention myself.

 

[pat3392]

Yw! Great to know I hit the mark. I honesty enjoy the challenge of trying to deduce the underlying causes of issues from players' posts, so really it's the accumulation of that skill and a deeper understanding of the underlying issues that allows me to do that. It's really no different than what you're able to do in putting players on hand ranges, and I mention my deal, because I think you are really close to the points you made in your last paragraph.

The first step is to begin understanding why it is logical that you would make those mistake - either feeling too proud or ashamed. The next step is not just to accept how you feel, it's to break the faulty logic that allowed these mental game errors to occur. Very often the what causes you to feel too good, and too bad is the same issue, just emerging in two different ways based on the circumstances. My suspicision is that it has to do with believing that your skill had more to do with the outcome than it actually did. So if you believe good variance is you - your confidence/pride is inflated. If you believe bad variance is you - your confidence/shame is deflated.

The key then is to improve 1) Recognizing specifically what makes you a skilled player, 2) Subtle variance, 3) Your opponents skill level.

All players already have skill in these three areas - the question is how strong is it. They all work together, and I've been looking for a good name for them - any ideas?

Let me know if this helps.

I knew there was something I forgot to do! Sorry for taking so long to reply

I think you are 100% correct; whenever I play a game I go over what happened and if ran really well I rarely, if ever, consider the fact that I had good variance.

I've been thinking that for me to become stronger in this regard I should study the math behind the game more so that I am more aware when I'm getting good/bad variance. This will allow me to be able to critical analysis if I'm running good or not. If the game is important to me afterwards I should go over what happened; for example, I got better than average hands, won more flips than lost, made good reads against this player, double barreling didn't work against this player and try to deduce why etc. Hopefully this will give me a more objective viewpoint that will help me control tilt and give me a better understanding of table dynamics

The best I've came up with after a week or so is "objective scrutiny" or "objective awareness; they're fairly self explanatory but not creative. I've been thinking making it a 3 letter name and make each letter= one of the skills; for a rather bad example, "SAV", where S=scrutiny, A=awareness and V=variance or maybe "EIV-aware", where E=externally, I=internally and V=variance(this would have to be a different word though, variance aware doesn't sound correct)

To be frank I don't think my suggestions are particularly good but maybe they'll inspire some better ideas.