9's and 10's. I know statistically they are great hands but...

Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

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Remember that there's a good chance that your opponents miss the overcards, particularly one overcard and one opponent.

For example, you raise pre-flop with 99 and only the big blind calls. The flop comes Q 8 3. Most likely you have the best hand. Take advantage of pot control by checking back either the flop or turn. If he bets out instead, then use your position and just call.

These hands are great but require playing some trickier poker :)
 
thatguy6793

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Don't play scared, just because an overcard is on the board doesn't necessarily mean v has it. If you constantly fold when overcards are on the board players paying attention with take note and bet with any overcard on the board. Make good reads and you'll be winning with these hands in no time.
 
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ROYALROAD

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Completely, It depends on the situation of the place.

It sometimes change into a trash hand.
 
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Dhendrixon

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They are easier to play in position then out of position. In position, I will most always Cbet the flop as you would almost be guaranteed to check the turn and see the river card. The hand has some showdown value if you don't improve equity on any street.
 
Shumkoolie

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Remember that there's a good chance that your opponents miss the overcards, particularly one overcard and one opponent.

For example, you raise pre-flop with 99 and only the big blind calls. The flop comes Q 8 3. Most likely you have the best hand. Take advantage of pot control by checking back either the flop or turn. If he bets out instead, then use your position and just call.

These hands are great but require playing some trickier poker :)

Remember that your opponent is also likely to not love that flop either, so it may require having to apply pressure and semi-bluff (you may or may not have the best hand here) your opponent. Don't be afraid to do it, because for sure they will be doing it to you as well.

Don't play scared, just because an overcard is on the board doesn't necessarily mean v has it. If you constantly fold when overcards are on the board players paying attention with take note and bet with any overcard on the board. Make good reads and you'll be winning with these hands in no time.


Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself - some people will pick up on these patterns, so don't be afraid to go for slightly thinner value. You may find yourself winning these pots more often than you think.
 
Einer777

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that varies a lot depending on the position how many players are in the hand if the flop helps you and so on in many other things
 
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fundiver199

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Remember that there's a good chance that your opponents miss the overcards, particularly one overcard and one opponent.

For example, you raise pre-flop with 99 and only the big blind calls. The flop comes Q 8 3. Most likely you have the best hand. Take advantage of pot control by checking back either the flop or turn. If he bets out instead, then use your position and just call.

These hands are great but require playing some trickier poker :)

As usual Collin Moshman is giving some great advice. This hand is a text book example on, how to play these middling pairs with a single overcard on the board. I had 88 rather than 99 or TT, but its still the same idea. Because it was a tournament hand with ICM-pressure (final table) I kept my bets small. In a cash game or early in a tournament you can go a bit larger both preflop and on the flop.

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/624HLXvIv
 
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Holdem Tycoon

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As most have said, it’s about position. Pot control, who your up against, are you running good or bad that day.
 
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fundiver199

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Just want to add, that there are also situations, where its completely fine to just give up. Lets say we open 99 from MP, BTN call, SB call, and we see a flop like KQT or AJJ. Then its totally reasonable to check with the intention of folding to any significant bet from BTN, especially if SB has already called that bet. Against two opponents chances are, we dont have the best hand, and when we are behind, we are either way behind or completely dead already.

On the AJJ board its totally plausible, that someone could have either an A or a J, and if someone have AJ, we can only win by making quads. And on the KQT board we have 6 outs, but they are very much tainted. A 9 give us a set but any hand with a J will make a straight. And a J will give us a straight, but any hand with an A will make a higher straight. And someone could already have flopped a straight with AJ, in which case we need some perfect runner-runner to win or even just chop the pot. So even though we might occationally allow BTN to bluff us out of the pot, we just fold and live to fight another day.
 
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El_Matt

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I would also stress that it is imperative to play them aggressively. If you do not raise enough before flop, too many people will limp into the pot, thus increasing the chance that any of them flops a higher pair!
 
Kennemelo

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I love connectors, sometimes even overestimate them, but I think that a well-played draw is worth a lot!
 
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ruco72

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I think it depends greatly on how the remaining players act/react, after the flop...
 
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Backlash

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Raise it 5x or 6x on preflop to get the riff raff out. Then on the flop assess your opponent(s) and react accordingly with your position.
 
DanS87

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I tend to raise with 9s or 10s and play to at least see the flop. Once there then its all down to the cards in the flop and how the other players are playing their hands.

If the flop is a bunch of lower cards i’ll be more aggressive with my bet/raise.

If it’s one over card and the villain(s) play aggressively I’ll dial it back a bit.

If the flop is all overcards and the villain(s) are throwing out big stacks then I’m out of there and waiting for the next hand
 
pirateglenn

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Yes a standard play

I tend to raise with 9s or 10s and play to at least see the flop. Once there then its all down to the cards in the flop and how the other players are playing their hands.

If the flop is a bunch of lower cards i’ll be more aggressive with my bet/raise.

If it’s one over card and the villain(s) play aggressively I’ll dial it back a bit.

If the flop is all overcards and the villain(s) are throwing out big stacks then I’m out of there and waiting for the next hand

Yes this is the standard and safe play with 9s/10s but for years i have felt these two mid to upper pairs were a source of lost value for myself and may other players so i started to change the way i played these hands after watching a interview with Lex Veldhuis some years ago.
It is without question that many players find it hard to fold paint of any description largely due to the overcard value but also as it holds some mesmeric trance over players who dont fully understand some aspects of poker - not all but some!
With 99/1010 Lex went onto say that these hands whilst reliant often on the flop are worth playing to the bone (river) - now i can where he is coming from there and especially so if you are HU as you have polarised the field somewhat.
My play is very much a combination of things, i will raise and bet out, i will even conti bet a fair majority of the time but if my opponent and his image is what i call a da vinci..(a painter) then i am also looking to pot control and play sensibly.
I changed my play about 3 years ago with these type of hands and my win ratio improved from 43% to 49% so i guess it was worth it.
Lex was right that players who choose to river play hands like AJ/AQ/AK often lose to 99 and 1010.
 
razarach_xD

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Over cards always kill me. Any advice:eek:
Depending on position but .... if the action folds to you and you are first to act ...
Raise preflop....many better hands without position will fold
If reraised . Cold call (catch trips) or better: 3-bet... after all - you were initial raiser !
With raise you are isolating opponent on 1:1 cause usually other players don't interfere (if they don't have premium card) when one player kicks another out of tournament.
If called... you're playing and of course it's a Raise again....
Check= EV - 0
Because he will raise you if you check and you will fold if there's at least one over card on board. HE will 4-bet with Aces and Kings maybe Queens..
And if you do it million times, you will win 3 out of 4 times so you just have to adjust pot size.... it's that easy.

Of course you can run into trips, (but you can get them also), and of course there will be higher pair but playing poker aggressively ... makes you tough to beat.

Since you are new here I also wish you welcome. This is the place where a logo of good things started... and still last !
 
AKQ

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are you guys beating a dead horse in this thread?
 
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fundiver199

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are you guys beating a dead horse in this thread?

Probably yes since the thread was restarted after 15 month, and OP has never made another post in the forum after this one, which was his first and last.
 
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slothi

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You got already good advices in the comments….👍
Maybe you can make some notes on the players and use your experiences with them in different spots. 99‘s and TT‘s are pretty good starthands….but think about the ranges of your opponents (f.e.: what kind of hands would you play in which way in the position your opponent has?)
 
AKQ

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Depending on position but .... if the action folds to you and you are first to act ...
Raise preflop....many better hands without position will fold
If reraised . Cold call (catch trips) or better: 3-bet... after all - you were initial raiser !

With raise you are isolating opponent on 1:1 cause usually other players don't interfere (if they don't have premium card) when one player kicks another out of tournament.

If called... you're playing and of course it's a Raise again....
Check= EV - 0
Because he will raise you if you check and you will fold if there's at least one over card on board. HE will 4-bet with Aces and Kings maybe Queens..
And if you do it million times, you will win 3 out of 4 times so you just have to adjust pot size.... it's that easy.

Of course you can run into trips, (but you can get them also), and of course there will be higher pair but playing poker aggressively ... makes you tough to beat.

Since you are new here I also wish you welcome. This is the place where a logo of good things started... and still last !
Am I having a seizure reading this
or did you have a seizure in the midst of writing it
wait....im on drugs thats gotta be it
just kidding razarach


I seee you have theory and concepts in your thinking

but alot of your theorys need to be panned out with study

isolation is good
I like that tip@!

"Check= EV - 0
Because he will raise you if you check and you will fold if there's at least one over card on board."-razarach

check=EV 0
is just wrong , the only way it could be 0 is if when you check
and then you fold to any bet everytime

having some slowplay and decent check range is how we make EV off these players
#1
you bet
and he folds 80% of the time on the flop
#2 you checking portrays weakness
(and IS PURE weakness when you have no good holdings in your check range)
which induces a bet
he bets 65% of the time
half pot with any 2 cards

thats EV



Making that exact assumption about our opponents betting range is flawed.
If I check
and he bets in position with a 65% cbet
that doesn't guarantee a raise but a frequency

We can take his preflop range and run it against the odds of hitting the flop high card in flopzilla


back to the drawing board for you!!
Keep on thinking!!!
I applaud your effort in this post either way
I have written some stuff before and when I look at it the next day
I am ashamed lol
 
razarach_xD

razarach_xD

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Am I having a seizure reading this
or did you have a seizure in the midst of writing it
wait....im on drugs thats gotta be it
just kidding razarach


I seee you have theory and concepts in your thinking

but alot of your theorys need to be panned out with study

isolation is good
I like that tip@!

"Check= EV - 0
Because he will raise you if you check and you will fold if there's at least one over card on board."-razarach

check=EV 0
is just wrong , the only way it could be 0 is if when you check
and then you fold to any bet everytime

having some slowplay and decent check range is how we make EV off these players
#1
you bet
and he folds 80% of the time on the flop
#2 you checking portrays weakness
(and IS PURE weakness when you have no good holdings in your check range)
which induces a bet
he bets 65% of the time
half pot with any 2 cards

thats EV



Making that exact assumption about our opponents betting range is flawed.
If I check
and he bets in position with a 65% cbet
that doesn't guarantee a raise but a frequency

We can take his preflop range and run it against the odds of hitting the flop high card in flopzilla


back to the drawing board for you!!
Keep on thinking!!!
I applaud your effort in this post either way
I have written some stuff before and when I look at it the next day
I am ashamed lol

Hey m8,
I don't see why would anyone have seizure besides people that don't care about it. And why would I be on drugs and then you reply... does that mean you are on drugs too ?
:)

About isolation.. that is pure my product . Everything else I red somewhere else but when I play and I see the opportunity, I say to myself:" let me isolate this guy 1:1, then we!re on a math field.... and its true.. bet size does matter !


Im kidding a little bit but sorry cause english is not my mother language. I have just wrote it as one of strategies from GTO which can vary up and down. I think I didn't miss the point since you understood and I'm glad that if I am wrong - Im not far away.
I agree that my theory needs to be panned out.. always.. every hand and again.
But you missed my first sentence... depending on position...
of course you wont value bet OOP with polarised board but mostly are condensed, right ?
And with that said and being in position... I think you have fair background for c-bet.
And we do t need flopzillla cause you never mention position.. I wrote that as action folds to me ! As from the post.
And it he bets 65% of the time with half raised pot.... my tens need to be ok for 35% of the time.. so its 1 outta 3...
and about check + 0 EV...
if Im in position and I opened the flop from button (obviously, im in position) with no over-cards .. guy checks - I bet...
cause if i check...I didn't earn anything... right ?
Now you will say he is slow-playing (I already mentioned but I'll clear this again). There will be sloplaying but only 15% of the time which makes bluffs and semiblufs up to 50% (give or take)
They thought me: poker is aggressive game and that is my approach but due to time, stakes, oponnent, pisition etc... I deviate up and down.
again, maybe I'm missing something
 
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