Rules question

M

mrkeses

Rising Star
HI all

Well as a thread says its about rules.
Its :
Cash game.
No limit.
10 players table.

Lets make question on this way.
Every player have his number on the table.
Now dealer is at player 3.
So small and big blind must be players 4 and 5.
But player 9 betting before players 6,7,8.
He betting 1500$.
But dealer asking player 8 would he call big blind or raise.
Player 8 raise 800$.
Now player 9 got his bet of 1500$ on the table.

Should he pull out his bet and leave just 800$ what raise player 8 or he have no right to pull out his bet but to give 100$ more for re-raise that make 1600$

My view is that chips what once pass a lane cant be pulled back, same is for cards.
So by me player 9 can give 100$ more what make reraise of 1600$ or he can fold his cards and leave that 1500$ in the pot.

whats your view of this situation ?
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
It depends entirely on the house policy and which rule set you're using, because poker abhors standardised rule sets as much as nature abhors a vacuum :p

Let's start with the relevant rule from Robert's Rules (section 3, Betting and Raising, #10):

Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn may be ruled binding if there is no bet, call, or raise by an intervening player acting after the infraction has been committed.

That doesn't actually tell you how to fix this. It may be ruled binding if there was no bet, call or raise by an intervening player after it happened, but there was a raise. So... it depends?

I also checked the rules from my local casino, which are a good deal more comprehensive:

6.18.2: If a player who should have acted prior to the out of turn player chooses to bet more than the out of turn bet, the player who acted out of turn can either make up the difference to call, or take back his/her bet and fold or re-raise.​

That's a bit more helpful, though it still doesn't cover this situation because Player 8 bet LESS than Player 9's out of turn bet.

If I'm Player 8, by the way, I'd want to be getting a ruling on what the status of Player 9's bet would be before I acted. As played it's just weird: did 8 make it $800 expecting that the $1500 would stand? If so then they're just going to have to make it $1500 total when the action gets back around to them anyway. Did they expect Player 9's bet to be reduced to $800? I don't know why they would, but if that was the case I assume it would've been worked out ahead of time and you wouldn't be asking this question. Or did they expect Player 9's bet to be taken back, and them be given the option to call raise or fold as if they'd never bet out of turn? I don't get it.

If this was a genuine / one-off mistake, I'd be inclined to just remind Player 9 not to act out of turn in the future, take the bet back and then act of the hand based on the $800 bet to him.

Side note: unless the big bling is less than $100, then $1500 should be a legal raise amount. If blinds were $50/$100, and player 8 raises to $800 then his raise is $700 (or less, if the blinds were higher - which I'm guessing they were based on the bet sizes). Subsequent raises then have to be at least $700. $800 + $700 = $1500.

Which is a roundabout way of getting to the point that if you do rule that Player 9's out of turn bet stands, it should stand at $1500. There's no reason he should have to make it $1600.
 
M

mrkeses

Rising Star
OzExorcist thank you for your time and effort to help in here.
Ofc there is many rules and it depends of house.
Unfortunately this local house didnt set a such a rule so Im asking for other angle of view on this situation.

Blind was 50-100
Raise of player 8 was 800.
Next player usually need to re-raise double of total amount of last player, or to play all in if has not enough chips
but want to play hand.So, player 8 raise 700$ on big blind 100, what was 800 in total.
Player 9 cant bet less than 800 and cant raise less than 1600.Player 10 cant re-raise less than 3200 ....

Now we are in situation to player 9 bet isnt enough for re-raise and he want to pull back his 700 to make call to the player 8 bet of 800.

I make complain about it, since betting on that way is a way of pressure on the other players.
Maybe player 6,7,8,10,1 and 2 would play a hand or at least to see a flop for 200$, 300$ or so ... but if they see already placed bet
of 1500$ they wouldn't throwing their bet of 200$ or so !?

Thats a reason why I plead for that player 9 cant pull back his bet, just cause made pressure to other player on the table.
Means he must take some consequence of his acting.

Player 8 made his bet on purpose, and make it exactly to player 9 dont have enough for re-raise.
If player 9 was serious in placing his bet of 1500$ paying 100$ more for re-raise wouldn't make big difference since
he already give 1500$ but he want to pull back his chips to the amount of player 8 raising, what was 800$.


How would you acting as a player if you see already 1500$ on the table, and would you allow to the player 9 to
pull back his chips after created pressure to other players ?
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

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A few things.

Is this a home game? I cant imagine a card room not having a rule about this.

Either way, a majority of rooms will use the Out Of Turn action rule as Oz described. If you act OOT then if the player that was skipped decides to bet or raise, then you can change what you want to do. This is the fairest thing you can do. Any other rule would be non standard. Player 9 has the right to change their mind if the action before them is changed.

As far as the raise rule:
Blinds are 50/100
Raise is completed to 800, a +700 raise.
Any reraise must be +700, so a raise to 1500 IS a legal raise and can happen. There is no reason to think player 8 raise of 800 was to make player 9 raise illegal.
 
M

mrkeses

Rising Star
No, its not home game. Its new local casino and it has a rules, but unfortunately it doesn't have rules about specific situation above. Rules are copied from some casino and I have read it, it has not a rules about this situation.

Ok, I dont want to we miss point cause blind+raise.

What happend if player 9 make 1400$ OOT, and player 8 raise to 800 ?
Hope you see it now.


Either way, a majority of rooms will use the Out Of Turn action rule as Oz described. If you act OOT then if the player that was skipped decides to bet or raise, then you can change what you want to do. This is the fairest thing you can do. Any other rule would be non standard. Player 9 has the right to change their mind if the action before them is changed.
This is totally unfair to rest of player who arent OOT.
Player who raise OOT make pressure to non OOT players with placing high amount of chips. Hence that he can destroy almost every hand with it, its unfair to he can pull back his OOT.

From my angle of view, OOT cant pull back his chips.
If player 8 make raise to 800
and player 9 OOT 1400
then player 9 must give 100 more for proper re-raise or he can fold it.



Ok, but what if we have 5 OOT players .... do you see mess in pulling back his bets, confusion on the table to go into a hand, what if players make like this


player 1 OOT 500$
player 3 OOT 300$
player 4 small blind
player 5 big blind
player 6 fold
player 7 fold
player 8 raise 800
player 9 OOT 1400

very messy hand , you must admit
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
What happend if player 9 make 1400$ OOT, and player 8 raise to 800 ?
Hope you see it now.

If, as mentioned above, you follow the sensible rule where Player 9 takes their bet back and can either call, raise or fold as they see fit, then it doesn't matter whether it was $1400 or $1500 or $1600 because it's brand new action.

If they did want to raise, it would need to be to $1500 minimum though.

I know some games (usually home games or pub poker - I've never heard of a real-money casino using it) do use the rule where the minimum raise is double the total of the previous bet. But it's a terrible "rule", and usually only applied by people who think it's too hard to do the math on working out the size of the previous raise.

This is totally unfair to rest of player who arent OOT.
Player who raise OOT make pressure to non OOT players with placing high amount of chips. Hence that he can destroy almost every hand with it, its unfair to he can pull back his OOT.

OK, this goes to one of the other things I brought up: was this a genuine one-off mistake by Player 9 or not?

If it was a genuine one-off mistake then he's not "destroying almost ever hand" with it. If it is more than a one-off, then player needs to receive a warning or penalty, which is something that the floor person will rule on.

From my angle of view, OOT cant pull back his chips.
If player 8 make raise to 800
and player 9 OOT 1400
then player 9 must give 100 more for proper re-raise or he can fold it.

Again in the event of a genuine mistake by one player acting OOT, detroitjunkie is absolutely right: they should be allowed to pull their bet back and call, raise or fold as they see fit. It's the fairest resolution, because while yes they are at fault for acting out of turn, their initial bet was made based on incorrect information (ie: that all the players acting before them had folded).

If it's a pattern, or you have reason to think the player is deliberately angle shooting, then the floor should make a ruling on whether some additional penalty should apply (though likely the in-hand remedy will still be they take their bet back and choose to call/raise/fold, and the penalty happens after the hand).

Ok, but what if we have 5 OOT players .... do you see mess in pulling back his bets, confusion on the table to go into a hand, what if players make like this

player 1 OOT 500$
player 3 OOT 300$
player 4 small blind
player 5 big blind
player 6 fold
player 7 fold
player 8 raise 800
player 9 OOT 1400

very messy hand , you must admit

Erm... yeah, if I follow what you mean by that then yes it's a very messy hand. But I don't see how something like that actually happens in real life.

I mean did all the players just decide to throw random amounts of chips into the pot as soon as the dealer finished dealing hole cards?!? Did they think the action went counter-clockwise?

It's not a realistic situation. If it did somehow happen (because everyone at the table is an idiot, one assumes) the correct remedy depends on exactly what order the OOT players acted.
 
M

mrkeses

Rising Star
I know some games (usually home games or pub poker - I've never heard of a real-money casino using it) do use the rule where the minimum raise is double the total of the previous bet. But it's a terrible "rule", and usually only applied by people who think it's too hard to do the math on working out the size of the previous raise.
Not home poker but local casino / club.

OK, this goes to one of the other things I brought up: was this a genuine one-off mistake by Player 9 or not?

If it was a genuine one-off mistake then he's not "destroying almost ever hand" with it. If it is more than a one-off, then player needs to receive a warning or penalty, which is something that the floor person will rule on.
Its not a mistake, he think that OOT is a way of playing.
Its player with enough cash to play almost every evening, but he is asshole when he loosing a money.
So, he even do not check his cards and do OOT.
Ofc other players fold then we have hand with 2-3 players of 10.
Mostly he pull back his OOT bet or just call big blind.

Again, we are not talking about mistake, we are talking about rude player and missing rules how to solve action of constant OOT betting.
As I said, he make pressure on to other players with OOT on purpose , Im already pissed of with talking about it LOL.

He make high "OOT bet" with knowing and guessing that most of players will fold, so he "fishing" players who took him chips .... mostly he pull back his OOT bet if player who took him a money do not enter a hand or simple after many players fold he just call.

My wish and point is to OOT on purpose cant be back at any way.
If players make OOT then other players already see bet/raise and can act by that information.

How I think :
If he make OOT of 2000$ for 10 times, 8-9 hands he will ruin but 1-2 hands of that 10 some player/s must have JJ or KK or AA or AK or whatever and he will pay for playing like that, but he must be NOT allowed to pull back his OOT bet from a table.
 
M

mrkeses

Rising Star
It's not a realistic situation. If it did somehow happen (because everyone at the table is an idiot, one assumes) the correct remedy depends on exactly what order the OOT players acted.

Idiots on the table is allowed, but house must have rules for idiots.
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

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Idiots on the table is allowed, but house must have rules for idiots.


Yes they have rules for this and its called kicking the player out of the room. You just cant change rules around to compensate for angle shooters, the rules are what they are, if people abuse them they get a penalty or just get kicked out. If anything else, the constant OOT angle shooters hand can be called dead. Forcing them to make the bet is wrong especially since we do not know if it will help them in the angle, which is why we have penalties and ejections.

As far as multiple OOT actions, well there are other rules to deal with this as well, if two or more (room dependent) players act before the skipped player has an opportunity to act, then the skipped player may lose their right to act in that position altogether, this is situational and is room dependent, but a player only has so much time to speak up and say they were skipped.

I am wondering where this casino is that has no rule on this, seems like a pretty standard situation that occurs very often.
 
pescaofish

pescaofish

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Back home that player will be kick out of the room before the players hit him.

I t should not be Tolerated at all !
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Yes they have rules for this and its called kicking the player out of the room. You just cant change rules around to compensate for angle shooters, the rules are what they are, if people abuse them they get a penalty or just get kicked out. If anything else, the constant OOT angle shooters hand can be called dead. Forcing them to make the bet is wrong especially since we do not know if it will help them in the angle, which is why we have penalties and ejections.

^ this. Exactly this.

If this is a recurring problem with this player then the floor needs to take some other kind of action. It doesn't change the in-hand remedy.
 
XXPXXP

XXPXXP

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ask a question:

if 1500 is all the chips that player have , but act in blank before his turn.
so would that 1500 be back to him?

I checked some rules in wiki, it says, in this situation, his 1500 consider to be all in, which is not a legal size of reraise, but because of his stack is all in, so it is fine?

thanx
 
BobGrayling

BobGrayling

Rock Star
I have played in rooms where they would NOT let you pull the bet back. Not entirely sure what the ruling would be if the amount was not a "legal reraise". But, I do know that a lot of rooms aren't going to let him keep doing it.
 
M

mrkeses

Rising Star
OUT OF TURN QUESTION

Thanks to all !

No, there is not casino who gonna let a player to doing such a thing, but if its small local casino, rule must be modified a little to hold a player but to protect other players and house.
In small local casino problem is number of players.
There is not 1million players as in Las Vegas but about 100. So every player is important to hold him in.

I will suggest to OOT player cant pull back his bet.
If his OOT bet isnt enough for proper raise , he cant pull back chips to just call but must put in more chips for proper re-raise or he must fold it.

EXP 1
Small blind - 10
Big blind - 20
Raise to - 40
OOT 55

OOT must put in 5 more to re-raise or must fold it. Cant pull back 15 to make call of 40.
On that way he wont have feeling that house punished him with kicking from a table, or skipping 2-3 hands or whatever ....

EXP 2
Small blind - 10
Big blind - 20
OOT 55

In this situation OOT has no right to pull back his bet amnd make call of 20.
His OOT betting will be taken as a raise to 55.

Also every player would be allowed to make OOT by mistake once per night/day.
Every second OOT will be treated as a OOT on purpose and will be used rules EXP 1 and EXP 2

what you think is this OK to other player ?
 
Last edited:
M

mrkeses

Rising Star
ALL IN QUESTION

ask a question:

if 1500 is all the chips that player have , but act in blank before his turn.
so would that 1500 be back to him?

I checked some rules in wiki, it says, in this situation, his 1500 consider to be all in, which is not a legal size of reraise, but because of his stack is all in, so it is fine?

thanx

If im not a wrong, ALL IN is always allowed.
 
diego farfan

diego farfan

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This question is very similar to a question tes InterPoker what usually happens the most recommended is not risk all your chips unless you have a 98% chance of winning and sometimes taking 98% lose but very rarely
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
ask a question:

if 1500 is all the chips that player have , but act in blank before his turn.
so would that 1500 be back to him?

I checked some rules in wiki, it says, in this situation, his 1500 consider to be all in, which is not a legal size of reraise, but because of his stack is all in, so it is fine?

You're confusing two rules here - acting out of turn, and going all in for less than a minimum raise.

If they go all in out of turn then it depends on the action. If one of the in between players makes a bet, then the player who went all in out of turn takes their bet back and has the option to fold, call or raise.

That has nothing to do with the rule on going all in for less than a minimum raise - which is yes, you can raise less than the minimum if you're raising all in.

Idiots on the table is allowed, but house must have rules for idiots.

The house shouldn't change the rules to the detriment of all other players just because there are idiots though. They should enforce the rules fairly and correctly, and penalise or evict the idiots as appropriate.

No, there is not casino who gonna let a player to doing such a thing, but if its small local casino, rule must be modified a little to hold a player but to protect other players and house.
In small local casino problem is number of players.
There is not 1million players as in Las Vegas but about 100. So every player is important to hold him in.

At the end of the day I guess it's their card room and they can do whatever they like. But I think this is amazingly short-sighted.

They're making a bad decision on rules just to keep one player in the game paying rake. That bad decision has the potential to lead to very unfair outcomes for other players making innocent mistakes in the future. And unfairly penalising people for making innocent mistakes is a pretty good way of making them not want to play in your card room any more. So no, I don't think it's OK for the other players.

I also don't see how ruling the way your card room has makes a difference to anything. If this idiot is deliberately acting out of turn, he's giving free information to the players still to act in the process. They can act on their hands knowing he wants to make a big raise when it's his turn to act.

Whether you (correctly) take his bet back and give him the option to fold, call or raise, or whether you make his bet stand, the other players know he wants to make it 1500. And if he's doing that without even looking at his cards then yes it's high variance but it's good for the players who know what they're doing - DUCY?
 
M

mrkeses

Rising Star
I also don't see how ruling the way your card room has makes a difference to anything. If this idiot is deliberately acting out of turn, he's giving free information to the players still to act in the process. They can act on their hands knowing he wants to make a big raise when it's his turn to act.

Whether you (correctly) take his bet back and give him the option to fold, call or raise, or whether you make his bet stand, the other players know he wants to make it 1500. And if he's doing that without even looking at his cards then yes it's high variance but it's good for the players who know what they're doing - DUCY?
You see, nobody would forbid him to play OOT, with seeing or not his cards, but is it really mathematically possible to he won every hand, or every second one ?
No its not.
So whats would hapanned in there ?
He would lose alot of his money!
Many players will be happy cause it!
Many players will come again to fishing a "fish"
Fish will learn on hard way to CANT make pressure on to other players.

House need to make rules what protect house and most player on the table.
Simple let "monkey" to bet what he want, but he cant pull it back at any way, and almost every player can make him to double OOT if regular player has good cards ...
Soon or later we will got what he doing and how much money he are loosing on that way of playing ...

We all need "fish" on the table ?
So lets make rules to "fish" get catched on ......
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
We all need "fish" on the table ?
So lets make rules to "fish" get catched on ......

OK I've just got one more thing to say then I'm giving up:

This guy will still be a fish, regardless of whether the room changes the rules. And let's be honest, he's pretty unlikely to stop playing just because the floor makes him bet in turn. Degens gonna degen, after all.

Changing the rules for this one fish has the potential to be hugely unfair to every other player in the room though.

At the end of the day it's their card room and they can make whatever rules whey want. But making this ruling, especially for this reason, is objectively stupid.
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

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1. No card room needs one player, especially one that shoots angles all the time, keeping this guy around will surely lead to other players not coming back, so absolutely no need to keep this player around.

2. The rule you propose doesnt make any sense logically. If the player who was skipped wanted the OOT player to still raise, then they would just check, the OOT raise would still have to play, then the player that was skipped would re-raise on the their next action - boom, angle averted.

3. There have been rumors that casinos outside the U.S.A. can have some strange rules. The one you want may actually exist somewhere out there. It would be a very non-standard rule.

4. Allowing someone to act OOT all the time is terrible for the game, it does not make any sense, and will drive players away. The same can be said for changing rules just for certain people. Its crazyness.
 
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