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007Leon
Rock Star
Silver Level
J
jorgejarapy
Rock Star
Silver Level
I try to never mix things up, and I also prefer not to talk to anyone about religious and political issues because many times the person you talk to before listening to you wants you to think like him, and one ends up getting tired and bored of the combersacion. provided you play for fun and without hurting anyone I don't think it's against religion
Phoenix Wright
Legend
Loyaler
I do believe poker is highly about statistics and risk management (as well as psychology and many other elements), but this isn't my "excuse"
Also, you didn't specify which religion, so I assuming it isn't Hinduism, or Taoism or something like that since you mention the Bible. Personally, I am a Christian. If what I say doesn't align with the Bible, then please correct me and I'll listen. With this said, I don't see where the Bible is against "gambling" inherently.
Here is my human opinion on it. Obviously, the Bible wouldn't mention "poker" by name because poker wasn't invented yet, but I see the problems not with poker (or even gambling), but with the way that people often approach these things; I argue that it is their flawed approach in mindset that is considered sinful in the Bible - not the game itself. Let me elaborate:
The Bible mentions in many places to put your trust in God and in many places it mentions the problems with temptation. It is really obvious to see how many poker players might be demonstrating their sinful nature because they play as get-rich-quick schemes, love of money and putting their lives to something else in an idol-istic manner.
One passage I am thinking of is the following, "But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs." - 1 Timothy 6:9-10
Another passage that seems relevant comes from the book of Luke, "Then he said to them, 'Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.'" - Luke 12:15
Personally, I play poker because I enjoy psychology and the people-orientated game of poker is a great means to challenge this ability of mine. I like it as a game and for something to work harder to slowly improve at. With this said, sure I might consider playing for money if I become good enough (so far it is just freerolls and homegames for me), but the temptation of getting rich isn't really in the forefront of my mind. Naturally, I wouldn't mind the extra money I may win (may lose money too; it is a game after all) - but this isn't the focus for me, nor does someone playing poker for money become inherently sinful in my eyes. I think the problem is if the person is controlled by this greed and love of money; I should note that many poker pros (religious or not) donate a lot of money for charity and give a lot of their winnings for other positive causes. Phil Hellmuth has donated a lot and so have other pros who have since become ambassadors for the game of poker. Obviously these professionals make a living at their talent, but it sounds like a strawman argument for some to claim that all poker players are drowning in greed (although sadly many players are - especially many recreational players).
Everyone is different, but when I was growing up: I never cared for poker. I knew the rules of the game (vaguely learned from a friend in elementary school one time), but poker was just another card game like go fish or crazy 8s (obviously we didn't gamble with money) and the game never interested me. I wasn't against poker from a moral standpoint, but it just didn't appeal to my interests and I didn't hold it against anyone who did play it. It wasn't until just a few months ago (I am in my 20s now), I literally woke up one morning and thought, "I bet I could be good at poker"
Really that is how I started learning the game somewhat more formally and I've learned a lot. I like to think the psychology element is the strength of my game, but this meant nothing without the fundamentals and some basic math I am learning; poker can be a rewarding game - not just financially.Anyway, this is my long-written opinion on the subject; I am open to hearing what others may contribute.
You know, a lot of televised poker events give the illusion that pots are many millions of dollars and high stakes pros are unimaginably rich; this couldn't be further from the truth in many cases. Why do you think so many pros go bankrupt - even multiple times! Yes, the pot you watched them play on tv may be several million dollars in size, but that isn't what the player is taking home that night. First of all, chip denominations are not always 1:1 on the currency. Also, even if it is - you can't always just get up and leave with your money. In a cash game you might be able to do so, but in MTT events on tv, they are usually only leaving when they win or when they bust (research ICM calculators to calculate how much each chip may be worth in equity terms). Secondly, there is rake, taxes, money to pay others since many pros are staked for the money and so on.
Many pros have strong bankroll management skills and slowly win more money little by little. Legendary poker pro Chris Ferguson says he doesn't usually like to spend anymore than 1% or his bankroll on any given event/night. This is smart because variance (due to the math underlining poker and its payout structures) is a very real thing and one can easily go bankrupt - so bankroll management is a net to make it more likely you can survive downswings. It isn't really a get-rich-quick scheme for many of these players who play professionally for a living.
I know I've got a long post here, but Proverbs is one of my favorite books of the Bible, so I have to end with a verse from here
"Dishonest money dwindles away, but whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow." - Proverbs 13:11
From my perspective, people who cheat to earn their money will have it dwindle, but long-term poker players usually have really good bankroll management and try to increase little by little - this can hardly be classified as falling into temptation and greed: which I think are the true sinful elements at play here, but this isn't limited to poker as a game though. It has to do with the mindset of the one playing poker and where they choose to place their values.
NWPatriot
Rock Star
Silver Level
This is an interesting discussion. I myself am a Christian and I have struggled with this a little bit myself. I have rationalized it to the point that I do play and feel OK about it. As Christians we are taught to not harm anyone or take advantage of them. We should always represent our Lord in all things we do.
If I win a game of poker against an individual, have I harmed them or taken advantage of them? We both chose to "play a game" within a given set of rules, so I have to say, no.
What about if that person has a gambling problem and I exploit them for their money? I would have to say yes, that is harming another human being. Of course when we all sit down to play, we do not know this about our opponents, but if we intentionally target a vulnerable gambling addict, then I would have trouble with this. This then becomes greed. What about exploiting some random guy at the table? This is a fine line, isn't it? Are we back to the basic fact that we both agreed to play the game within its rules? Well, yeah, we are.
Cheating to win a buck is a pretty clear issue - this is greed above all else. The deception behind a bluff is within the rules, so though it may be deceptive, it is a part of the game. If a person cannot separate the game from the rest of his life and he becomes deceptive by nature away from the table, then he has really lost the big game.
Lastly, I will never verbally abuse another player at the table. I recognize that this is a part of some players game. If I determined that the only way to win was to abuse another player, i would probably have to find another hobby.
This all sounds like just a bunch of poor rationalizations and justifications, and maybe they are. I enjoy the challenge of the game and also enjoy the psychological aspect of the game. But my representation of Christianity at the table is more important than winning.
Good luck to all and God bless.
Jim Rivas
Visionary
Bronze Level
We live in a world to experience and observe the results of each religion, each game, each type of policy, each technology, etc., the important thing is to enjoy and learn from each without judging them. From everything that exists in the world the best can be extracted.
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Auswa
Enthusiast
Silver Level
The bible doesn't forbid poker or gambling as such. It warns of trying to get rich quick and the love of money. A lot of poker players love money and even say it. Same can be true about people working at a job always trying to earn more money by working overtime.
There's nothing wrong with working 16 hours a day but the motive can't be for money. Same goes for playing poker. I treat poker like it's a race and try and win the tournament I play in. I'm not thinking I'm going to make $100,000 if i win this tournament. I'm focused on competing and playing my best. Also while I'm at work I'm not thinking I'm making x amount of dollars today I'm thinking how can I be of more service today. I'm looking for ways to be better than my competitors by providing better service. If I have to work 14 hours a day to do that then so be it.
There is times when you have money either when someone pays you for your service or product you provide them (in poker your of service to the house and other players and the house pays you if you do a good job and or things go your way). Once paid then the focus is on managing that money wisely by sharing it with people that might be in need, providing for your family and yourself. There is a whole art and science to that in itself and there isn't any guarantee that your going to be wealthy even if you seem to do things correctly. Just like there isn't a guarantee your going to win a poker tournament every time you play one.
There's nothing wrong with working 16 hours a day but the motive can't be for money. Same goes for playing poker. I treat poker like it's a race and try and win the tournament I play in. I'm not thinking I'm going to make $100,000 if i win this tournament. I'm focused on competing and playing my best. Also while I'm at work I'm not thinking I'm making x amount of dollars today I'm thinking how can I be of more service today. I'm looking for ways to be better than my competitors by providing better service. If I have to work 14 hours a day to do that then so be it.
There is times when you have money either when someone pays you for your service or product you provide them (in poker your of service to the house and other players and the house pays you if you do a good job and or things go your way). Once paid then the focus is on managing that money wisely by sharing it with people that might be in need, providing for your family and yourself. There is a whole art and science to that in itself and there isn't any guarantee that your going to be wealthy even if you seem to do things correctly. Just like there isn't a guarantee your going to win a poker tournament every time you play one.
A
AS7777777
Enthusiast
Silver Level
So where in the Bible is this forbidden? What sin is this?
Academico
Rock Star
Platinum Level
very well thought out excuse hehe
W
WellAA
Visionary
Platinum Level
Patriot, may I call it Christian poker or what? You just stood out some "Christian" interesting points!
nerobs9
Legend
Bronze Level
I like your thought process 😂
Aballinamion
Sleeping with the Dark Lady of the Sith
Loyaler
I think this is an inflammatory question that will lead us nowhere. Well, I’m Christian and Jew and I must say to you that although gambling is forbidden, poker is not a gambling game, per se.
In poker we are not dealing with money but with blinds. Gambling is just of the aspects of the game, and we all know for sure that poker is a science not a slot machine having absurd odds.
The illegal gambling is forbidden, the addiction to gamble is prohibited for the Bible and for any serious poker room.
The point of poker is not to raise a sick society that bets on impulse and invest more that they can afford to lose!
As anything in life we must use the golden rule which is called common sense.
Now, I hope this thread doesn’t get too much hot.
78mariusz
Rock Star
Bronze Level
Moreover poker for me is a sport like all others - sport is not forbidden in any bible. There is a random element in poker but skills and strategy are more important in long term
Aballinamion
Sleeping with the Dark Lady of the Sith
Loyaler
Thank you for your point of a view mate. I think it this way as well. Greed and pride are not only Christian concepts but a bad thing in any area of living.
Dailon Arroyo Blandon
Legend
Bronze Level
Well... it's a controversial issue where there are many points of view depending on the beliefs of each person... for that reason it's very delicate... in my personal case I'll just say that they don't go hand in hand...