Manjerica1
Rock Star
Silver Level
Yes, especially when I start to see my HUD and start to think about what my opponent is thinking about my move and in the manjority of time they were not even thinking. They just look at their cards and to the cards on the board
R
Richard Grant
Rock Star
Silver Level
Ovethinking tell me about it! Not just in poker pretty much everything. Its nice sometimes to do something easy and repetitive so the "thinking" turns off.
Saying that I think thinking a lot and effectively is great as opposed to when all your thinking is taking you down unnecessary paths. So somebody who isn't thinking that much could never make the same ginormous errors that someone who is overthinking does.
You could prob put a lot of the great philosophers in there. Marx is most certainly been wrong and over thought in ways that have been utterly disastrous
Does over thinking nearly always lead to over caution? I'm overthinking this thread aren't I!
Saying that I think thinking a lot and effectively is great as opposed to when all your thinking is taking you down unnecessary paths. So somebody who isn't thinking that much could never make the same ginormous errors that someone who is overthinking does.
You could prob put a lot of the great philosophers in there. Marx is most certainly been wrong and over thought in ways that have been utterly disastrous
Does over thinking nearly always lead to over caution? I'm overthinking this thread aren't I!
moulan7
Rock Star
Silver Level
Yeah, such an important thread.
I find it very hard to deal with very large bets that make little to no sense.
You know that kind of stuff when flop comes like KK5 and you hold 1010 and your opponent overbets the pot or reraises you. And yep he has it. Jeez who is thinking that way.
Classic overthinking situation where your opponent either has no clue and plays straight forward the strength of his hand or... I don't know lol.
Of course many times those kind of situations turn to be bluffs (bad bluffs I dare to say cause they scream ''I'm bluffing now'') but many times they aren't, especially in the micros where I play.
Damn self leveling and overthinking xD.
I find it very hard to deal with very large bets that make little to no sense.
You know that kind of stuff when flop comes like KK5 and you hold 1010 and your opponent overbets the pot or reraises you. And yep he has it. Jeez who is thinking that way.
Classic overthinking situation where your opponent either has no clue and plays straight forward the strength of his hand or... I don't know lol.
Of course many times those kind of situations turn to be bluffs (bad bluffs I dare to say cause they scream ''I'm bluffing now'') but many times they aren't, especially in the micros where I play.
Damn self leveling and overthinking xD.
Katie Dozier
Poker Expert
Silver Level
This is where becoming a reg in a game type is particularly advantageous—because of you play a ton in a specific format then it’s extremely likely that if someone you have never seen before sits down at the table (wether live or online) then they are pretty likely to be a novice player.
In general I tend to assume that much but of course always seek to improve upon a starting assumption—looking for easy to get “clues” such as their preflop raise size as well as aggression. Those that tend to raise to standard sizes and are playing aggressively instead of passively (profitable moves especially in the games I play) get upgraded from me thinking of them as a total novice rather quickly [emoji4]
In general I tend to assume that much but of course always seek to improve upon a starting assumption—looking for easy to get “clues” such as their preflop raise size as well as aggression. Those that tend to raise to standard sizes and are playing aggressively instead of passively (profitable moves especially in the games I play) get upgraded from me thinking of them as a total novice rather quickly [emoji4]
riverlizard3
Rock Star
Silver Level
dont think
I know we can get in a game and have a situation where you put the guy on something.
its important to not just assume that is what he has, as you continue the hand, and even saying i think you have this or that can work to his advantage, so be able to keep that to yourself and be ready to consider the various options.
I know we can get in a game and have a situation where you put the guy on something.
its important to not just assume that is what he has, as you continue the hand, and even saying i think you have this or that can work to his advantage, so be able to keep that to yourself and be ready to consider the various options.
misskrystal4
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Ya I sometimes have to take myself back to a basic mindset like when poker was new to me and The thrill of new wins would happen. If the stakes aren’t too high I try to go with my first instinct. Without overthinking. I was ‘on tilt’ for a long time and took a break from the game for a nice while it helped me improve when I came back.
FoxMS
Visionary
Silver Level
Usually I am very cautious about new players at the table. Sometimes my caution also prevents me from making the right decisions. But I am also convinced that underestimating your opponents is a big mistake. So I prefer a careful and thoughtful game.
moulan7
Rock Star
Silver Level
Guys by overthinking the op means that sometimes we put our opponents play on a higher level than what it is. Some times our opponents play like we can see their cards and we make fancy thoughts and take wrong decisions because we think that they play smart.
The problem is not that we underestimate them but that we overestimate them.
The problem is not that we underestimate them but that we overestimate them.
moulan7
Rock Star
Silver Level
Overestimating them is as bad if not worse xD
Aballinamion
Sleeping with the Dark Lady of the Sith
Loyaler
The Leveling Wars, Episode III: The Revenge of the Fish
Hello there Mikeloti13, how you doing today? Very nice question, and hard to answer.
I use to overthink my game when I am analysing one session that I've played.
When I am at the tables, I try to use the valuable information that I have:
1) Colors to identify players types
2) HUD/Statistics to help my decision making postflop easier
3) I try to adapt to the level of the players.
The last one is the hardest to do: it requires some kind of phycologial reading about the player, plus range and hand reading. Also it requires a good postflop gameplan and decision making (Extreme Hard). Example:
You are playing a MTT and has 12.82 blinds of effective stack and you are in the Big Blind. It comes in gap to the Button, with 10.23 blinds who goes all-in. Folds to SB and it's your time to decide.
You in the Big Blind have AcJs. Should we call? (100% of times?)
Before thinking about odds, about survival in the tournament, about ICM, we must consider who we are playing with: is this BTN player more aggressive? More passive? How many hands do I have played with it?
Let's assume we have 245 hands played with the BTN and it has stats of 8/3/1/3-bet 1.5/fold to 3-bet 0/C-bet flop 25/Fold to c-bet flop 45/ etc
Are we happy to call versus this guy? Probably not
Now let's picture BTN has only 25 hands played with you, and it has stats of 70/48/8 etc
are you inclined to call?
It seems that this type of player the answer is insta-call, but remember, the times you lose your tournament will be at stake. Although it seems a pretty easy call, we don't have a decent sample of hands for decision making.
Cash Games
You are in the BTN, 100 bb stack, and you have AKo, and you raise 3x because you see a recreational player in the blinds who loves to call preflop, VPIP higher than 25 for example. The player in the SB has 97 bb stack, and calls you, BB folds.
The flop comes TK2 the player in the SB checks, what's your action?
The leveling way of thinking is very sophisticated and elegant: many professional players will say that we should C-bet this flop almost 100% of times versus a calling station.
Nonetheless, we must consider that BTN has a pretty wide stealing range, varying from 28% to 50%, depending how good the player is postflop. (also SB calling range is wide)
So, when we open from the BTN and the SB calls, we don't have too much AK, AQ, AA, KK on our range. We have weaker aces, draws, medium and low pairs, etc. If we bet here, we can scary a passive fish and enter a difficult situation versus an aggressive fish.
By cheking back we are giving the SB the chance of hitting something of its huge nonsense calling range vs BTN.
Because we believe that the calling frequency is so high that this player will miss most of flops, and because there's a king in the flop, it could be scary and fold to a C-bet flop.
So we check, and the turn comes a seven (7x) , and the player in the SB donks for pot size.
Well, we have a very strong value hand, considering the calling range, there are no flushes, straights, the better case scenario for SB is if it has two pair or sets, and we don't believe it will have many of these hands.
By checking the flop, a recreational player will think we got scared of the king and gave up of the pot. So it will feel more comfortable to bluff if it hits any part of its huge range.
If we raise the fish in the turn, SB can easily fold worse aces, any Tx, any 7x, etc and we want this player to keep bluffing its Tx, worst Kx and 7x, we want it to build the pot for us!
The river comes a 3 and the player again, bets pot. Should we raise here and get called only by better hands and folds of marginal ones? Nope, we call and the SB shows 87o!
It hits a 7x in the turn and believed it was a good spot for bluffing, since we have checked-back the flop.
I am not saying that we must check a 100% of times our TPTK versus fish out of position, but many times we have a strong value hand versus a calling station, we will be wildly ahead, and we must give it a chance to try to bluff us out of the pot: most of recreational players don't know how to use exploitave game, at least in a profitable manner: any sign of weakness they will explore you to the bones! (by betting and raising a huge nonsense range).
By weakness I mean checking and calling, even some very good players will fall into this trap, for example when we bet flop and check turn with a strong value hand, when we check-flop and check-call or check-raise turn (depending on the board texture), when we c-bet flop, check-call turn and donk river, etc.
It is very complicated, I'm afraid I didn't say anything I wanted but this text is far too long and I don't intend to be boring out of proportion and make our CardsChat's friends to go to sleep.
Regards;
Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
Hello there Mikeloti13, how you doing today? Very nice question, and hard to answer.
I use to overthink my game when I am analysing one session that I've played.
When I am at the tables, I try to use the valuable information that I have:
1) Colors to identify players types
2) HUD/Statistics to help my decision making postflop easier
3) I try to adapt to the level of the players.
The last one is the hardest to do: it requires some kind of phycologial reading about the player, plus range and hand reading. Also it requires a good postflop gameplan and decision making (Extreme Hard). Example:
You are playing a MTT and has 12.82 blinds of effective stack and you are in the Big Blind. It comes in gap to the Button, with 10.23 blinds who goes all-in. Folds to SB and it's your time to decide.
You in the Big Blind have AcJs. Should we call? (100% of times?)
Before thinking about odds, about survival in the tournament, about ICM, we must consider who we are playing with: is this BTN player more aggressive? More passive? How many hands do I have played with it?
Let's assume we have 245 hands played with the BTN and it has stats of 8/3/1/3-bet 1.5/fold to 3-bet 0/C-bet flop 25/Fold to c-bet flop 45/ etc
Are we happy to call versus this guy? Probably not
Now let's picture BTN has only 25 hands played with you, and it has stats of 70/48/8 etc
are you inclined to call?
It seems that this type of player the answer is insta-call, but remember, the times you lose your tournament will be at stake. Although it seems a pretty easy call, we don't have a decent sample of hands for decision making.
Cash Games
You are in the BTN, 100 bb stack, and you have AKo, and you raise 3x because you see a recreational player in the blinds who loves to call preflop, VPIP higher than 25 for example. The player in the SB has 97 bb stack, and calls you, BB folds.
The flop comes TK2 the player in the SB checks, what's your action?
The leveling way of thinking is very sophisticated and elegant: many professional players will say that we should C-bet this flop almost 100% of times versus a calling station.
Nonetheless, we must consider that BTN has a pretty wide stealing range, varying from 28% to 50%, depending how good the player is postflop. (also SB calling range is wide)
So, when we open from the BTN and the SB calls, we don't have too much AK, AQ, AA, KK on our range. We have weaker aces, draws, medium and low pairs, etc. If we bet here, we can scary a passive fish and enter a difficult situation versus an aggressive fish.
By cheking back we are giving the SB the chance of hitting something of its huge nonsense calling range vs BTN.
Because we believe that the calling frequency is so high that this player will miss most of flops, and because there's a king in the flop, it could be scary and fold to a C-bet flop.
So we check, and the turn comes a seven (7x) , and the player in the SB donks for pot size.
Well, we have a very strong value hand, considering the calling range, there are no flushes, straights, the better case scenario for SB is if it has two pair or sets, and we don't believe it will have many of these hands.
By checking the flop, a recreational player will think we got scared of the king and gave up of the pot. So it will feel more comfortable to bluff if it hits any part of its huge range.
If we raise the fish in the turn, SB can easily fold worse aces, any Tx, any 7x, etc and we want this player to keep bluffing its Tx, worst Kx and 7x, we want it to build the pot for us!
The river comes a 3 and the player again, bets pot. Should we raise here and get called only by better hands and folds of marginal ones? Nope, we call and the SB shows 87o!
It hits a 7x in the turn and believed it was a good spot for bluffing, since we have checked-back the flop.
I am not saying that we must check a 100% of times our TPTK versus fish out of position, but many times we have a strong value hand versus a calling station, we will be wildly ahead, and we must give it a chance to try to bluff us out of the pot: most of recreational players don't know how to use exploitave game, at least in a profitable manner: any sign of weakness they will explore you to the bones! (by betting and raising a huge nonsense range).
By weakness I mean checking and calling, even some very good players will fall into this trap, for example when we bet flop and check turn with a strong value hand, when we check-flop and check-call or check-raise turn (depending on the board texture), when we c-bet flop, check-call turn and donk river, etc.
It is very complicated, I'm afraid I didn't say anything I wanted but this text is far too long and I don't intend to be boring out of proportion and make our CardsChat's friends to go to sleep.
Regards;
Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
Aballinamion
Sleeping with the Dark Lady of the Sith
Loyaler
The Leveling Wars, Episode III: The Revenge of the Fish
Hello there Katie Dozier, thank you very much for your professional comments. It help us a lot here. You are right about what you say, if you playing small, mid and higher stakes: at the micros there are new players everyday, and we cannot say they are "bad" indeed, we simply have no information to deal with this guy.
If I am playing 100 NLHE, for example, I know it is a very restricted field, the regulars are there everyday, and everyone knows each other. When it comes a new player in the pool, one I never seen it before, I elect to treat it as a GOOD REGULAR, until the player proves itself the contrary:
Because, if we are playing 100 NLHE, there are other playing 500 NLHE and 1000 NLHE, so it is very easy for this guy to appear from time to time at 100 NLHE "to play", in the sense of kidding. They are monster players and if we don't know that this guy plays mostly higher limits and is just kidding at 100 NLHE we might get into very tricky spots.
Sorry for my candor, I am not an experienced player, I am just a novice and I have a lot to learn, but I simply have to be sincere here:
Many players posted in this thread that we don't need to think at all! As less as we think better, omg, I read very strange words here sometimes!
Now we see why the vast majority of the micro-stakes players (99% at least) are not profitable at all, and will never be: okay let's not think example:
It comes in gap for Hero in the MP with AKo, it raises to 3x and folds, folds, etc and only the BB calls. Both players have 100 blinds effective stack.
the flop comes K32 (very good!) and MP C-bets for 1/2 pot and the BB check-raises. As long as we don't need to think at the micros, it is an insta-call or insta-raise! (I am being sarcastic).
So MP calls, the turn comes another K (Awesome!) and we check for BB to bluff, which it does indeed, by going all in: as long as we don't need to think about position, about player types, about tendencies and vices, about postflop hand reading and range reading it is call 100% of times when BB goes all in in a very dry board like this! BB shows 33, the river is a brick and MP loses 100 BB, because it doesn't need to think about the game!
After all, there were only USD 2, or only USD 10..who cares about thinking, when so much money (money, not blinds!) are involved!
Thank all the Gods and also Karl Marx for players who believes they don't need to think because the micro-stakes is "cheap", "easy" level, when in fact it is not:
99% of the players at the micros are breakeven actually: either they lose a little, which induces them to keep trying, or they win just a little and lose next, so they will keep trying forever, groping in the dark.
Sorry for the long text, I will try to adapt and write less, but sometimes I just can't handle.
Regards;
Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
Hello there Katie Dozier, thank you very much for your professional comments. It help us a lot here. You are right about what you say, if you playing small, mid and higher stakes: at the micros there are new players everyday, and we cannot say they are "bad" indeed, we simply have no information to deal with this guy.
If I am playing 100 NLHE, for example, I know it is a very restricted field, the regulars are there everyday, and everyone knows each other. When it comes a new player in the pool, one I never seen it before, I elect to treat it as a GOOD REGULAR, until the player proves itself the contrary:
Because, if we are playing 100 NLHE, there are other playing 500 NLHE and 1000 NLHE, so it is very easy for this guy to appear from time to time at 100 NLHE "to play", in the sense of kidding. They are monster players and if we don't know that this guy plays mostly higher limits and is just kidding at 100 NLHE we might get into very tricky spots.
Sorry for my candor, I am not an experienced player, I am just a novice and I have a lot to learn, but I simply have to be sincere here:
Many players posted in this thread that we don't need to think at all! As less as we think better, omg, I read very strange words here sometimes!
Now we see why the vast majority of the micro-stakes players (99% at least) are not profitable at all, and will never be: okay let's not think example:
It comes in gap for Hero in the MP with AKo, it raises to 3x and folds, folds, etc and only the BB calls. Both players have 100 blinds effective stack.
the flop comes K32 (very good!) and MP C-bets for 1/2 pot and the BB check-raises. As long as we don't need to think at the micros, it is an insta-call or insta-raise! (I am being sarcastic).
So MP calls, the turn comes another K (Awesome!) and we check for BB to bluff, which it does indeed, by going all in: as long as we don't need to think about position, about player types, about tendencies and vices, about postflop hand reading and range reading it is call 100% of times when BB goes all in in a very dry board like this! BB shows 33, the river is a brick and MP loses 100 BB, because it doesn't need to think about the game!
After all, there were only USD 2, or only USD 10..who cares about thinking, when so much money (money, not blinds!) are involved!
Thank all the Gods and also Karl Marx for players who believes they don't need to think because the micro-stakes is "cheap", "easy" level, when in fact it is not:
99% of the players at the micros are breakeven actually: either they lose a little, which induces them to keep trying, or they win just a little and lose next, so they will keep trying forever, groping in the dark.
Sorry for the long text, I will try to adapt and write less, but sometimes I just can't handle.
Regards;
Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
T
TDTODDY
Rock Star
Silver Level
Think long, think wrong. Lovely adage, not always the case. If you put the whole hand together street by street, and it still makes no sense, I call. I'm at about 50% correct. That's as good as I'm probably going to get. I agree that feel at the table is always the overridding factor on decisions.
GIRFIED
Rock Star
Silver Level
Your problem is lack of confidence in your game, and this confidence is acquired through work, you have to work on your game and practice at the tables, in this way you will develop a solid confidence that will allow you to develop yourself at the tables.
My recommendation is first to build solid preflop ranges and second learn the basics of the postflop game, watching videos mainly, this way you will have a solid foundation to overcome the low limits.
NWPatriot
Rock Star
Silver Level
Overthinking - only always.
I hate this game. The more I study the more my head goes around in circles. I am now at a point where I don't know what to believe any more. A check can be a trap, or a check can mean trash. A big bet can be a bluff or a big bet can be strong value. These are the decisions we have to make, and we better get good at them.
I actually cashed more when I knew less - proof that ignorance is bliss. I think what I am finding is that 90% of the hands we review online or with videos only apply to 5% of the game we actually play. By trying to apply these very uniquely situational concepts to the majority of our hands, we can actually go backwards in our ability. What I mean is, that I used play 95% of my hand just fine, and I may have played the unique 5% poorly. If now i have improved on the 5% of those hands , but now I am misplaying the 95%, then i have gone backwards. This is an exaggeration of course, but I am in the middle of trying to really figure out how to make better decisions all the time.
Man, am I overthinking this, or what?
I hate this game. The more I study the more my head goes around in circles. I am now at a point where I don't know what to believe any more. A check can be a trap, or a check can mean trash. A big bet can be a bluff or a big bet can be strong value. These are the decisions we have to make, and we better get good at them.
I actually cashed more when I knew less - proof that ignorance is bliss. I think what I am finding is that 90% of the hands we review online or with videos only apply to 5% of the game we actually play. By trying to apply these very uniquely situational concepts to the majority of our hands, we can actually go backwards in our ability. What I mean is, that I used play 95% of my hand just fine, and I may have played the unique 5% poorly. If now i have improved on the 5% of those hands , but now I am misplaying the 95%, then i have gone backwards. This is an exaggeration of course, but I am in the middle of trying to really figure out how to make better decisions all the time.
Man, am I overthinking this, or what?