Negreanu String Bet at WSOPE?

Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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I've never been to impressed with ESPN's wsop coverage. It's spotty and filmed more like a reality show than a sporting event. I guess I watch it more to keep up with who's who in poker than to actually learn anything. That said, it can be occasionally entertaining when something unusal happens. I was up late last night watching the WSOPE on ESPN2 and I caught a hand which I thought was very interesting.

This hand occurred between Daniel Negreanu and Shawn Deeb. The table folds around to Daniel holding 77 in the Small Blind. Shawn Deeb raises with K9o in the BB and speculates that Daniel will call as usual. Daniel in his usual a jovial spirit says something to the effect of. "Well, I'm going to Pound you back", and then clearly puts his raise in in two seperate motions. Deeb immediately calls Daniel out as making a "string Bet" as he never used the word "RAISE" and did not put his chips in in one motion.

Of coure Daniel protests in his always friendly manner but Deeb insists on a ruling from the floor. Daniel argues that it was obvious that his intention was to raise but instead of using the words "Pound you Back" he sneakily replaced it with "Pound you UP" and explains that there are many different (more colorful?) ways of declaring a raise. All the time Deeb remains silent and excepts the floors ruling to "Let it stand" without argument and promptly folds his hand.

Ater the FM leaves the coversation continues with Deeb obviously frustrated by the ruling. It seems obvious to me that Daniels intent was to raise as that is exactly what I expected to see when he said "I'm going to pond you back" and there was no real delay between the two motions. Also, given Daniels character, I don't see him attempting any funny business, but who knows. He is facing a raise out of position with a vunerable hand which he'd prefer not to see a flop with.

IMO this was a poor ruling and have to wonder whether Daniel was cut some slack based on his star power. As Deeb later pointed out, this ruling makes it too easy for somone with less integity to shoot an angle by making some cute remark about "Ginning it up" or "Buttering it up" and then taking back the raise based on his opponents reaction arguing that he never actually used the word RAISE and it would be hard for the floor to rule against him.

Watch the video and tell me what you think. The hand in question occurs about 4:15 into the clip.

YouTube- WSOPE 2009 Main Event Episode 4 Part 5/5 World Series of Poker Europe E4 ESPN 2010
 
Snowmobiler

Snowmobiler

Legend
I saw this also and was surprised the way the floor ruled.I do think that Danial intended to raise with his comment,but it wasnt as clear as saying raise or saying an amount and 2 motions with the chips made it a string raise to me,since he wasnt clear of his intentions.I think, If I did the exact same thing at my local casino that it would be ruled a string raise,but I dont know for sure.As you said it was quite interesting.

I cant see Danial angle shooting,but the rules should be the same for all and this could be taken advantage of as you said.


Snow :cool:
 
Mortis

Mortis

Legend
Dude needs to quit whining and just play poker.. obviously Daniel's intent was to raise, and he did, regardless of what exactly he said.. he had both hands with chips out in front of him when he raised.

Though, that was a pretty sneaking change of words there with "back" and "up"... that could have made the difference in the floor decision.
 
L

LizzyJ

Legend
This is really borderline. Daniel knew what he meant, the floor knew what he meant and that's where the confusion starts. When you start using regional vernacular and start implying what you meant, that gets you into trouble. Leave all that for your local casino or home game where everyone knows what you meant. Something like the WSOP where you have people from out of state, out of the country or where english might be their 2nd, 3rd or 4th langauge, then being straight forward is a must.
 
moeraj

moeraj

Rock Star
This is a bad ruling. Any catch phrase like that can easily be misinterpreted. It is also bad for wsop because it looks like the ruling was made because of who Daniel is. I also noticed that Daniel lied about the words he used and it may have affected the ruling.
 
TheUndertaker

TheUndertaker

Rock Star
I agree with Mortis he knows Daneils' intention was to raise when he said i gonna pound you back anybody could interpret that as a raise.
 
J

Jbdrmaster

Enthusiast
This is clearly a raise on all accounts. He said verbally that it was going to cost him more, and put in his call and raise in two separate stacks with maybe about 1 second in between them hitting the felt. There was no angling or intention to get more information about the hand by how the raise was put in. It was counted out, verbally acknowledged, and put out with an insignificant time in between the two stacks hitting the table. Deep was just angry he made a dumb raise against somebody who clearly knew he had the best hand and got caught. He'll get over it eventually.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
This was clearly a raise. I don't even know why there is discussion. The guy just didn't like the way negreanu raised.

He got offended.

LOL

:)
 
R

Ranny

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This is an american run tournament in an English casino.

This would have been ruled as a string bet in most tournaments over here.

We all know daniel meant to raise but its how its done that shawn is querying, what the rules will be, as we all know there are no international rules.

Shawn is a top player and whilst not in daniel's league had 5 cashes in the WSOP in the summer.

I was actually in the casino whilst this happened but think I might ahem have been in the bar at the time.
 
L

luckyhearts

Rock Star
I agree that it is not what you MEANT, but what you SAID...how many times u see people say call and throw in more chips, well they meant 'raise'. It doesnt matter what they meant, they said 'call'..bad ruling on the floor, happens all the time.(just usually not with cameras rolling)
 
natsgrampy

natsgrampy

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I saw this too and he clearly meant a raise. He had, in one hand, the chips to cover the raise by Deeb, and in the other, his raise. What did Deeb think "pound you back" meant? Kind of bush league to call for a floor manager.
 
Steves22

Steves22

Rock Star
Dude needs to quit whining and just play poker.. obviously Daniel's intent was to raise, and he did, regardless of what exactly he said.. he had both hands with chips out in front of him when he raised.

Though, that was a pretty sneaking change of words there with "back" and "up"... that could have made the difference in the floor decision.

yeh i noticed he changed the words right away very smart of him im suprised the whiner didnt complain about that. But string raising is such a dumb rule anyway in my opinion. But I have to agree with whiner I don't like live poker either online is so much better. But he should quit Whining anyway he sounded like a girl on live tv
 
jaymfc

jaymfc

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This is really borderline. Daniel knew what he meant, the floor knew what he meant and that's where the confusion starts. When you start using regional vernacular and start implying what you meant, that gets you into trouble. Leave all that for your local casino or home game where everyone knows what you meant. Something like the WSOP where you have people from out of state, out of the country or where english might be their 2nd, 3rd or 4th langauge, then being straight forward is a must.

agreed

This is clearly a raise on all accounts. He said verbally that it was going to cost him more, and put in his call and raise in two separate stacks with maybe about 1 second in between them hitting the felt. There was no angling or intention to get more information about the hand by how the raise was put in. It was counted out, verbally acknowledged, and put out with an insignificant time in between the two stacks hitting the table.

agree with this too but understand deebs point and agree with lizzy .
 
P

Pokerdude420

Rock Star
put the chips into 2 piles..and was staring at the guy and said im gonna hit u back or wtv....obv a raise
 
dwolfg

dwolfg

Visionary
"Dealers will be responsible for calling string bets/raises. All players at the table are encouraged to assist in calling a string bet/raise if a
dealer fails to identify it. String bets/raises called by a player must be verified by a floor person. A string bet/raise is defined as attempting a
bet or raise in multiple movements that include a return to a player’s stack without a prior verbal declaration of intent or visual deception
intended to induce action out of turn before a player’s action is complete."

A quote from the wsop rules on the subject. IMO, based on the wording of the rule, this was not a string bet. I don't tink anyone thinks Daniel meant to deceive in order to induce action out of turn. I believe the "Pound you back" is a verbal declaration that Daniel wanted to raise.
 
Grossberger

Grossberger

Cardschat Elite
I agree that it is not what you MEANT, but what you SAID...how many times u see people say call and throw in more chips, well they meant 'raise'. It doesnt matter what they meant, they said 'call'..bad ruling on the floor, happens all the time.(just usually not with cameras rolling)
Bad example if you say "call" then that is binding just as if a player raises and you say "I'll see your bet and raise you" that is just the same as a call in this instance Daniel saying I'll pound you back or up could not be construde as a call its obvious a raise. Just as if he said I'm gonna re-pop ya would be a raise.

[x] Boarder line
[x] Obvious intent to raise
[ ] bad ruling
 
joe steady

joe steady

Rock Star
^^^+1. Deeb had been losing chips from the moment he sat down at that table. Frustration on his part, but wtf are you thinking raising Negreanu from the BB w/K9!!???!!??
 
L

LOVEANGEL1212

Rising Star
not a string raise, deeb is wrong. clear intent on raise.
P.gif
 
DINGO8MYBABY

DINGO8MYBABY

Rock Star
I'm not necessarily a Negreanu fan, and even I don't have a problem with what he did. Daniel may be a pirate, but he's a pretty ethical pirate. And there are plenty of terms for raise. When someone makes a fourth bet on a stud street they can say "cap". When someone makes a smoke raise they can say "smoke". Watch High Stakes Poker sometime for all the different ways one can announce a raise.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
FWIW, pros string bet all the time. I view it a lot like the travel rule in professional basketball - as long as the pro in question does something cool afterwards it's generally ignored.

This hand really hinges on the individual tournament rules. If the rule dwolfg has posted above is the one that applies then the ruling is correct. It only requires a verbal declaration, without specifying the form it has to take, and Daniel didn't return to his stack so he didn't violate that portion of the rule.

Some other tournaments will specifically require the player to say "raise" and will rule this a string bet though. If Deeb hasn't studied the specific rules for the tournament then it's not unreasonable for him to think this could be a string bet, and the point about this opening up loopholes for angle shooting is a valid one in any case.
 
salim271

salim271

Legend
These are the facts as I see them:
  • Negreanu meant to raise
  • Deeb knew that he meant to raise
  • Deeb didn't want him to raise
  • Deeb tried to block the raise on a technicality

^This, I wonder what would have happened if it was Phil Hellmuth against Deeb...?
 
dg1267

dg1267

Cardschat Elite
I think Daniel was fine there. It was a little awkward but I'm positive "I'm gonna pound you back" means he's raising. I think he should have made a single motion, but the floor manager seemed to think it was alright and he should know that there's gonna be a camera on Daniel.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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I read all the comments till here till I watched the video, and I cant see any reason to think Daniel was intending anything but the raise. Yes, it was two separate movements, but unless you want to rule against on a technicality, I cant see how anyone could question the intent to raise. And the "Im gonna pound you back a little" put in context with the conversation shortly before, when Daniel comments about the raise being meant seriously, and then chuckling saying silly children, its just obvious. The silly child was just whining.......
 
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