Need another opinion

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Even with PT/PAHUD/whatever, ultimately a human is still actually playing the game. Comparing something like PT with using a bot is a ridiculous, self-serving attempt to justify what you're doing.

And, here's the crux of the matter, using bots is against the Terms of Service of the site you're playing on (note also that PT/PAHUD/etc aren't against the ToS). Therefore it is cheating, as the site is providing a service to you, under the agreement that, among other things, you will not use 'bot' software. You are therefore 'cheating' the site, and 'cheating' other players who (a) adhere to the Terms of Service, and (b) expect all others whom they play with to adhere to the Terms of Service.

I see this as undisputable, and any attempt by yourself to somehow classify it as not cheating is in my opinion, as I've already said, just a weak attempt to justify your actions.

 

[Hurricane09]

I'm a programmer by day and I've looked at these bots in the past. You get past the poker rooms because they run on a PC other than the one with the poker software on it. Thats the easy part. If the rest of it was so easy then everyone would do it. There is so much coding involved to create a successful bot that you would have a hard time really making any money. If yours is averaging a blind an hour, then you are doing well, and kudos to you. Personally I've seen a lot of the guys here play online and they have nothing to worry about because I highly doubt the average Joe could program a bot to play every circumstance and I like to make money, so I would welcome them at my table. There is so much more to the game than just position and the cards that are showing. Why dont we propose Freakakanus vs the Bot - we could make a movie!

Mod edit - please do not link to software that is banned by poker sites. ~DM

 

[Beriac]

This is clearly cheating. The first, most obvious, and least disputable reason is that it's against the rules of the major poker sites, and so by definition it's cheating to them, the final arbiters of whether your cash gets confiscated.

You're using tools that are strictly against the rules to give yourself an advantage (correct play that doesn't get tired or go on tilt, or simply the ability to play more tables or play while you're napping or cheating at something else) at the expense of other players.

Honestly, the moral ambiguity required to question whether this is cheating is substantial.

 

[ChuckTs]

I'm actually very profitable online and at the casino. I wouldn't automate bad play. LOL. I'm from another forum but need an opinion without anyone knowing who I am. I don't think it's cheating. It doesn't share card information with other poker bots. It just plays like it would if I was there. It doesn't make much, maybe one big blind per hour. I probably make more as I read players well.

What fish meant was that what you are doing is against the rules at most (if not all) sites.
They will confiscate your bankroll or your winnings if they find out, which they inevitably will.

 

[spore]

I really don't like the idea of these "bots". Computer AI in its current state is not anywhere near the point where it can come close to being able to play poker exactly like you do. There's always those "gut instincts", getting a feel for how other players play, etc.. that human element that computers cannot replicate... and probably won't come close to for a LONG time.

So yeah, you can tell it how to play vague scenarios, it can try and guess what players have by the way they've played previous hands. But in the end, it's just not a good idea. One of the biggest problems with these bots is that it has to log a lot of hands from a lot of players... yes, it gets smarter as it goes. But by that point, you have become a very predictible player to those that have played against "you" for a long enough period of time. They will be able to figure out your thresholds for bets to call. Yes you can just play random tables all the time, but then your bot doesn't have much info to go on.

Apart from all the technical aspects, this method does absolutely NOTHING to improve your game, in fact it is very harmful to your play. OK, if it is working for you and you are making decent money using a bot.. it's hard to not do it. But realize this, you are perpetuating a problem which the poker sites ARE actively seeking to end. You are going to be caught up in the battle of:

1) poker site figures out how to detect your bot, ban you
2) You modify the bot to become undetected again and go to a new site
3) GOTO 1

After enough iterations of this loop, you will be banned from all poker sites. Not a game I wanna play with.

So... bottom line? IF THE BOT IS GOING TO TRY AND PLAY LIKE YOU DO.... JUST SIT DOWN AND PLAY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Easy money never turns out to be quite that.

 

[Bombjack]

Without wanting to sound too much like an old fuddy-duddy, whatever happened to morals? Don't you have any, odds_maker? It seems like you're hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, which you think makes it OK to be a cheat because no-one knows who you really are. But I don't think it makes a difference: it's the same act of cheating as if you were doing it at your home game, and you should be just as ashamed.

It's also very bad sportsmanship.

 

[wsorbust]

Guys, QUIT PLAYING ONLINE. Online is full of players like the guy who started this thread.

Thank you, really, but your first post in a poker forum is telling people not to play? ? ? bah! People might be using them, but they sure as hell don't know how. ...I think I'll play.

whatever happened to morals?

America Lost its morals around the time Britney Spears put out her first video! whoooo!

 

[NANUNANU]

whatever!!

First, the person who started this thread DOES NOT really care about the game of poker. Yes this is cheating!!!! You are cheating the game of poker, and you're cheating yourself. I dont let my buddy gamble with my money online even though he is a very good player and this fool lets some preprogrammed bot play his money. Unless this BOT knows all the hole cards of the other players it will lose more than it wins. Like the reply of the other member AI doesnt hold a candle to a human player. I cant believe someone would admit to this...lol....lol ....unreal. I dont care if people do this pathetic poker bot crap, but it makes me a little mad because I respect the game of poker and so do alot of others and I think it just rubs us the wrong way. Well, gl all that really do play this game...lol

 

[Freakakanus]

Why dont we propose Freakakanus vs the Bot - we could make a movie!

I'm not sure if I should be flattered or insulted....LOL

 

[joosebuck]

1) Poker Site figures out how to detect your bot, ban you

only bots in memory will be found, not one run from another PC as hurricaine said. a lot of cheats for online games run the same way. detectable on the pc, but using packet sniffing software and custom made programs that act on a 2nd box make it nigh-invulnerable to detection

 

[odds_maker]

I'm a programmer by day and I've looked at these bots in the past. You get past the poker rooms because they run on a PC other than the one with the poker software on it. Thats the easy part. If the rest of it was so easy then everyone would do it. There is so much coding involved to create a successful bot that you would have a hard time really making any money. If yours is averaging a blind an hour, then you are doing well, and kudos to you. Personally I've seen a lot of the guys here play online and they have nothing to worry about because I highly doubt the average Joe could program a bot to play every circumstance and I like to make money, so I would welcome them at my table. There is so much more to the game than just position and the cards that are showing. Why dont we propose Freakakanus vs the Bot - we could make a movie!

I did not create the poker bot software, nor am I a programmer. I just pay to use it. It's called ********** and a friend told me about it. The same friend that said it was cheating just like some of you. From what I understand, each member gets there very own exe when they sign up. This makes it harder for the poker software to detect because they don't know what to detect for. It also doesn't have a poker window and runs hidden and they show how to see if it is running in task management. This confused me at first because I didn't know it was running when it was.

There is just too much to comment on, but I do want to say thanks for all your opinions and keep them coming. What's funny is no one is on my side or atleast wants to admit it. I do want to add they plan on adding a Preflop play only, so you configure what you want it to play then you take over after the flop. This will allow me to get more done at work. LOL. Do you guys think this is bad too?

 

[Hurricane09]

Definitely a compliment Freakakanus. Bots suck.

 

[Hurricane09]

Oh, and by the way, odds' last post was the sales pitch. You can find the same type of post all over Google. 'I'm using such and such and making about a blind an hour, blah, blah.'

 

[Jesus Lederer]

odds_maker don´t worry, jesus is on your side (not 100%).
I really don´t see any ethical problem with using a software like that. Like almost every human invention, these things are made to make our life more comfortable and to save time, so why don´t use them if we aren´t harming anyone?

So in my opinion i don´t see the ethical problem with using it, but even if it´s correct according to you and me, we shouldn´t use it. Why? Because of one simple reason: it´s illegal.

The Terms of Service say that you musn´t use those kind of softwares, so when you click on the box that says "i agree with the terms", it means that if you´re using the software then you´re cheating.
If the Terms of Service say that you musn´t sing while you´re playing, then don´t do it, it doesn´t matter if it´s ethical or not.

Personally i wouldn´t use that software even if the Terms of Service allow me to do it, because of the simple reason that i enjoy playing poker.

 

[odds_maker]

The Terms of Service say that you musn´t use those kind of softwares, so when you click on the box that says "i agree with the terms", it means that if you´re using the software then you´re cheating.
If the Terms of Service say that you musn´t sing while you´re playing, then don´t do it, it doesn´t matter if it´s ethical or not.

In my opinion, all software programs should not be allowed. However, I think there are tracking programs allowed in the ToS that help players play against other players. That software hurts players that already know how to track for themselves. And the odds programs helps players that can't even calculate odds for themselves. That hurts players that properly know how to calculate odds. So all these software programs should not be allowed. However, they are used and CAN'T be stopped online. All these programs just make it harder for humans to play against each other because you have full proof tracking and full proof odds calculations. So I PLAY poker at the casino, but I also make $$ online. And by the way, I am a very good limit player and for the person stating the "blah blah blah google blah one big blind blah sh**", one big blind an hour is usually what the limit players make in lower limit stakes. But of course you wouldn't know that.

 

[joosebuck]

getting a "custom" .exe wont make it harder to find, haha. wow. you should really learn something about it before risking (i would say at least) hundreds of dollars playing. i would quit while ahead if i were you.

 

[joosebuck]

just because it is disguised to look like winamp.exe or msn messenger does not mean it will replicate what those programs do in your system memory, which is where and how you will be caught cheating. if you are intent on using these programs you should look into packet sniffing with a networked box doing all of the calculations and having your main pc go through the actions from it.

 

[Stick66]

Oh, and by the way, odds' last post was the sales pitch. You can find the same type of post all over Google. 'I'm using such and such and making about a blind an hour, blah, blah.'

Ahhh! It all makes sense now. Just clever spam.

"It's called -this- and it does -that- and there is a new version coming out soon. What do you think?"

...and I have a sales background. I should have figured it out. Clever, clever. LMAO!

 

[Tammy]

...makes it harder for the poker software to detect because they don't know what to detect for. It also doesn't have a poker window and runs hidden and they show how to see if it is running in task management.

If they have to hide it from being detected by the poker sites, how is it not cheating again? Hmmm...self-delusion is a wonderful thing I suppose.

 

[odds_maker]

This is not a sales pitch. ROFL. You can't talk about anything now adays without looking like spam, especially if it's software. I only stated the name becuase there were numerous references to WinHoldem. That bot software requires multiple computers and also shares card information with other bots. Now that is scary because you could have nine bots at one table making money from the one guy that sits down. I wanted to make it clear I wasn't using that software since others knew what that was.

Now on to the topic. If any software is used against me, ANY, that gives that player an unfair advantage of what he normally would NOT have. Now that I have said that, I know most players online use some sort of program. Well, that is then an unfair advantage. So to me, you are cheating too.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Jesus Christ.

Even with PT/PAHUD/whatever, ultimately a human is still actually playing the game. Comparing something like PT with using a bot is a ridiculous, self-serving attempt to justify what you're doing.

And, here's the crux of the matter, using bots is against the Terms of Service of the site you're playing on (note also that PT/PAHUD/etc aren't against the ToS). Therefore it is cheating, as the site is providing a service to you, under the agreement that, among other things, you will not use 'bot' software. You are therefore 'cheating' the site, and 'cheating' other players who (a) adhere to the Terms of Service, and (b) expect all others whom they play with to adhere to the Terms of Service.

I see this as undisputable, and any attempt by yourself to somehow classify it as not cheating is in my opinion, as I've already said, just a weak attempt to justify your actions.

Oh, and OP, did you really expect anyone to be 'on your side'?

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

odds_maker don´t worry, jesus is on your side (not 100%).
I really don´t see any ethical problem with using a software like that.

JL, didn't you say the other week that you considered deal making at a final table to be 'unethical'?

No offense intended, but you appear to have a somewhat upside-down idea of ethics.

(Edit: Apologies if it was someone else who said this, btw)

 

[Jesus Lederer]

JL, didn't you say the other week that you considered deal making at a final table to be 'unethical'?

No offense intended, but you appear to have a somewhat upside-down idea of ethics.

(Edit: Apologies if it was someone else who said this, btw)

You´re right Chris, i said that and i admit i was wrong. When i said that, i was thinking in the ethic of poker as a sport, so it would be unethical to "surrender" and don´t attempt to win even if that meant to take some risks, but then i realized that this game is about winning money, and that means that if it´s necessary you must leave your ego and the glory to achieve your real goals.

An example of that is that i found unethical using softawares like PT to know your opponent´s style, because in my opinion the essence of the game is to get your own reads and exploit your opponent´s leaks according to them. Anyway i know that PT is extremely useful, it will help you to achieve your goals more easily and it´s legal, so it would be really silly to don´t use it if you can.

Anyway i still defend that there´s no ethical problem with that bots´s software, unless you count the factor of tilting, because even if you get some bad beats the software won´t be affected. Aside from that, it´s the same as if you would be playing (and of course you have the big disvantage of not getting reads), so what´s the problem? It´s just saving your time instead of doing the same moves personally in front of the computer, so i don´t see why that would be cheating. Remember that i know that it´s illegal so nobody should use it, i´m just discussing the ethic part of the problem.

I hope you understood my points. If you don´t agree, please tell me why you think i´m wrong, and you know that you don´t have to apologize. I´ll accept any critics if you tell me solid arguments, and as i showed before i´m able to recognize when i´m wrong (especially since i don´t have too much experience in life).

 

[twizzybop]

Just one minor glitch period... so to speak.. ok I can agree a bot can't be detected by your say. I can dispute it but won't based apon that your ISP can be detected and if you are making loads of money so quickly that can and will be also detected. Poker sites can also detect if the normal human being has been playing 15+ hours which isn't impossible but we need sleep.

So go yadda yadda yadda I have a bot.. if indeed you do which actually you don't cause it is a futile waste of money. You definately wouldn't be bragging about it.. Now if the site you got this bot off from.. you really think they'd sell such an idea to you when indeed they can be making money themselves?? You really think that someone is going to share the wealth.. remember you are using it to cheat and win boat loads.. why in the heck would they share something that is going to make them boat loads ethical or unethical?

 

[odds_maker]

Anyway i still defend that there´s no ethical problem with that bots´s software, unless you count the factor of tilting, because even if you get some bad beats the software won´t be affected. Aside from that, it´s the same as if you would be playing (and of course you have the big disvantage of not getting reads), so what´s the problem? It´s just saving your time instead of doing the same moves personally in front of the computer, so i don´t see why that would be cheating. Remember that i know that it´s illegal so nobody should use it, i´m just discussing the ethic part of the problem.

Thanks Jesus. (that sounded funny)

And you're right, saving time is why I use it not to mention the fact that I make money when I'm unable to play myself.