Mucking called losing hands

Lheticus

Lheticus

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I'd like a little perspective, being a player who doesn't manage to play live very often. Online, it seems like the losing hands at showdown are mucked at every chance the client gives--and those chances actually vary a little bit from client to client. But in live play I have no idea how widespread the practice is of mucking a hand that does not beat the current best hand shown. I made another thread a while back asking about what I thought would be a good or at least adequate method of handling this, but how much would it even come up in the first place? I should have tried to figure that out before anyway.
 
OzExorcist

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If you make it to showdown and your opponent shows a better hand than yours, in live poker you're entitled to just muck your hand face down*

Keep in mind though that even if you muck face down, any player who was dealt cards in the hand is entitled to ask to see your cards. As a matter of etiquette it doesn't happen very often, but they're still entitled to do that (in the same way that you can go back and see the content of a "mucked" hand online using the hand replay tool).

* there can be some exceptions - in particular in tournaments in all-in situations
 
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paulsmall007

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Tournament play is about longevity and survival, why give anyone information on your play and why u bet the way u did if u don't have to, If someone was in the hand and asks to see it then you have to. But showing your cards is more of a cash game play to show poeple you bluffed then and to get more action on ur big hands
 
BLACKSOLDIER

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Close to the chest

Why give anybody advantage of seeing your range if I'm using the term correctly?
 
6

6bet me

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At my casino the rules are:
- If you reach showdown in a cash game, the last aggressor shows first. They have the option of either showing or mucking. The other player is not required to show their cards to win the pot.
- In a tournament, all players must show their cards in an all-in situation, but this is not the rule for cash games.
- There is a "show one show all" rule whereby if you show your cards to one player, then you must flip them over for everyone to see.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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At my casino the rules are:
- If you reach showdown in a cash game, the last aggressor shows first. They have the option of either showing or mucking. The other player is not required to show their cards to win the pot.
- In a tournament, all players must show their cards in an all-in situation, but this is not the rule for cash games.
- There is a "show one show all" rule whereby if you show your cards to one player, then you must flip them over for everyone to see.

The last two are pretty standard, but the first one has something that's not the norm: usually you HAVE to show your cards to claim any part of the pot, even if your opponent has mucked and you're the only one left, for game security / anti-collusion reasons.

Incidentally, are you from Melbourne Australia? If so that'd mean you're talking about Crown right?

Technically the last aggressor doesn't have the option of mucking there: the poker room rules state clearly that "the player being called will then expose his/her cards" (12.5.4, https://www.crownmelbourne.com.au/g...wn-Melbourne-Casino-Poker-Rules-V13.pdf.aspx). There's no "unless they want to muck" option, it's just stated that they will expose their cards. It then says that the other player(s) will show their cards if they're holding something of equal or higher value.

Now I know from experience playing there this isn't always what happens: quite often you'll get to the end of the hand and the players will just stare at each other in that "you show - no you show" way, sometimes they'll be even more obtuse and say something like "I've got a pair - so do I how big is yours" and generally waste a bunch of time until the dealer insists that somebody turns over.
 
teepack

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I think in tournaments, if it gets to showdown both players should be forced to show.
 
rflbarreto

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it really depends on the place you are playing at and the rules they have ... it is not the same everywhere
 
MattRyder

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My understanding is that if there are 2 or more players left in play, the last aggressor has to show. If he is not the winner, then the winner has to show (if he wants to claim his winnings of course). They could skip the first step if they want to chat it up first, and they agree that the winner just shows his cards. If everyone has folded to one player, then nobody has to show.

Online - I will never choose to show my cards unless the software shows them automatically. I have the first three Muck/Don't Show options selected in pokerstars - Settings/Gameplay/Show / Muck Cards.
 
tocloc238

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I've been in hands where I'd call an aggressors bet on the river and they don't want to show first. I'd tell them that by the rules they have to show first, but sometimes they would say, "You show then I'll show". Being a nice guy I'd then flip my cards over only to see him quickly muck his cards.

Sometimes, I need to stop being a nice guy at the table, lol.
 
tocloc238

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You have to remember though that sometimes players misread their hand and actually muck the winning hand. I just watched the Phil Ivey hand where he mucked his winning flush, lol.
 
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Reelmookey

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yea this option is totally up to the player, nobody ould look down on a player jsut mucking the losing hand alot of players do this
 
dgospa

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Its up to you would u show or not if i loose i dont show cards almost never. And in client u can set options for auto muck. In live i dont show cards. Why to give someone advateg to see mine cards... Its up ti you. Mine opinion dont show cards!:)
 
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Broon1234

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typically for live if I'm calling I wait for them to show their hand, then if I've lost I will muck. The less information for them the better. Sometimes people will show their hand if they are frustrated or want to show they also had a good hand but it is not required. You'll almost never see a losing hand online unless all-in
 
billbaffles

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One thing to add that I have not read yet but remember reading somewhere is that if there is no action on the river and it checks around then the player in earliest position shows first. I have seen, as mentioned, people muck winners, in the main event, Phil Ivey mucked a pair of 8's that had a flush when his opponent had an ace and lost due to mucking. I also remember Jungleman mucking a wheel to Esfandiari's 8-3 two pair in the heads up championship. The other possibility that I have seen is the last aggressor was bluffing, didnt want to show, mucked his cards, then his opponent turned over an even worse hand, and he tried to get his hand back because it was a winner but it was already in the muck. The other thing ive have seen with mucking is in the Main Event, the dealer mucked some lady's hand when she had called all-in and they were not retrievable from the muck. She said she had AA and only lost her initial raise but was not allowed to continue in the hand. I dont play much live poker but it goes last aggressor and then first position. I guess it depends on house rules but you are required to show your hand to any player who was dealt into the hand at most casino's. I know ACR does not show the cards. You could throw them at the muck and hope they get the wrong cards if you dont want to show. From what I have read, players get upset at other players who ask to see mucked cards a lot. I would never show unless you have to, even bluffs. I would always make them pay to see every time. I would concentrate on making players figure out frequencies and risk it instead of showing a bluff to make them think you have it as much as possible.
 
OzExorcist

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I'll just note again that all those people talking about the "auto muck" feature online, you know the contents of your hands are visible in the hand replayer / hand history every time you go to showdown right? You're not actually hiding your cards - anyone who wants to can click on the "last hand" button and see exactly what you had.

From what I have read, players get upset at other players who ask to see mucked cards a lot.

Yeah, it's generally considered poor form to insist on seeing a mucked hand, especially if you weren't the other player in the showdown (remember, someone who was dealt into the hand and folded preflop has just as much right to see that mucked hand as the player that took them to showdown).

That's not to say that you should never do it, or that it's a mortal sin when someone else does it, but players are generally expected not to "abuse the privilege". Especially if they themselves might like the benefit of mucking their hand unseen from time to time.
 
Lheticus

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I'll just note again that all those people talking about the "auto muck" feature online, you know the contents of your hands are visible in the hand replayer / hand history every time you go to showdown right? You're not actually hiding your cards - anyone who wants to can click on the "last hand" button and see exactly what you had.

Actually, that's not true for most clients I've used--if your hand is mucked, that's reflected in the replay except for just a few clients, I forget which ones even. I mean, not doing that does kind of defeat the purpose of allowing mucks.
 
OzExorcist

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Actually, that's not true for most clients I've used--if your hand is mucked, that's reflected in the replay except for just a few clients, I forget which ones even. I mean, not doing that does kind of defeat the purpose of allowing mucks.

So I haven't spent much time at all on the smaller sites, but it was definitely true the whole time on Full Tilt and unless I'm completely misremembering (it's not a feature I use often myself) it's true on Stars too.

It should be the case that you can do it too. As we've discussed above, players being allowed to see any hand that goes to showdown is one of the fundamental rules of poker and even if it's not used often, it's important to ensure a fair and secure game.
 
Lheticus

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So I haven't spent much time at all on the smaller sites, but it was definitely true the whole time on Full Tilt and unless I'm completely misremembering (it's not a feature I use often myself) it's true on Stars too.

Well there ya go. I'm a US player so I don't use Stars.
 
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freestocks

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It would suck to muck the winning hand. Oops.
 
TeUnit

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muck when you can, show when you have to
 
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Jarod1231

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I've been in hands where I'd call an aggressors bet on the river and they don't want to show first. I'd tell them that by the rules they have to show first, but sometimes they would say, "You show then I'll show". Being a nice guy I'd then flip my cards over only to see him quickly muck his cards.

Sometimes, I need to stop being a nice guy at the table, lol.

That is bad poker etiquette, the last person to bet is required to show first and there is a reason for that... YOU called THEIR bet... The bet THEY made claiming THEY had the best hand... It isn't the responsibility of the person calling to prove they have the best hand, they have made the call being uncertain if they have the best hand or not, the caller never claimed they had the best hand... The bettor has been claiming they have the best hand by betting and therefore needs to prove it by showing first.
 
Bertochi

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That depends... it isn't the same rules everywhere
 
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