Low numbers of women in poker

[matnautico]

For some reason gambling in general is more attractive to men.

 

[cazual88]

My wife played better then me in this freeroll ($12.4 vs my $5)

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

My wife played better then me in this freeroll ($12.4 vs my $5)

you both cashed so you both probably played well. perhaps she played better or perhaps she ran better....but since you taught her you can be proud either way

 

[Propane Goat]

I wonder how much of an effect the logical/mathematical aspect of poker has to do with the gender imbalance. I finished my engineering undergrad in 2014 and currently teach the same courses while I'm working on my Master's, and almost without exception there will be <10% females in any typical engineering class. I've taken courses with over 30 students, and zero females in the room.

This is true for virtually any engineering department on any campus, while if you look at soft science majors, the gender ratios are reversed but usually not to that extent (except for Child Development/Nursing).

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

To propane goat regarding women in engineering careers: I've done some research on this and the overwhelming educated opinion seems to be that while there is an aptitude discrepancy at the highest echelons of math it cannot account for the phenomenon as a whole. It seems to be a matter of interest rather than aptitude.

http://www.apa.org/action/resources/research-in-action/share.aspx



excerpt from cornell paper which I'll quote below: http://www.human.cornell.edu/hd/ciws/upload/SexDifferencesMathIntensiveFields.pdf

The primary factor in women’s underrepresentation is choices both freely made and constrained by biology and society. Women choose at a young age not to pursue math-intensive careers; few adolescent girls express desires to be engineers or physicists, preferring instead to be medical doctors, veterinarians, biologists, psychologists, and lawyers. Females make this choice despite earning higher math and science grades than males throughout schooling. Although women earn a large portion of baccalaureate degrees in all fields of science, including mathematics, disproportionately fewer enter graduate school in these fields, preferring biology, social sciences, law, medicine, and the humanities—even when they possess math ability comparable to males. Of those who enter graduate school in math-intensive fields, more women than men drop out or change fields, and of those who complete doctorates, fewer women apply for tenure-track positions. Women drop out of scientific careers—especially math and physical sciences—after entering them as assistant professors at higher rates than men, and this remains true as women advance through the ranks. Although the reasons for this attrition are not well understood, it appears to have less to do with discrimination or ability than with fertility decisions and lifestyle choices, both freely made and constrained. The tenure structure in academe demands that women having children make their greatest intellectual contributions contemporaneously with their greatest physical and emotional achievements, a feat not expected of men. When women opt out of full-time careers to have and rear children, this is a choice—constrained by biology—that men are not required to make.

I found the bolded portion most interesting.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

But I think we can all agree that the level of math required to be successful at poker is barely highschool level math...an most of it is grade school level math. At these levels girls have an equal aptitude to boys, though they frequently outperform the boys in a classroom setting.

So again...not the math itself but perhaps the perception that "math is hard. And math is required" is off putting to some girls.

I'm amazed how often people find out I play poker and they want to know if I can count cards...they think it's like this magical math brain thing that just mean you're a genius. Well, yes I can count cards and it's really easy and it doesn't apply in poker...

 

[Propane Goat]

But I think we can all agree that the level of math required to be successful at poker is barely highschool level math...an most of it is grade school level math. At these levels girls have an equal aptitude to boys, though they frequently outperform the boys in a classroom setting.

So again...not the math itself but perhaps the perception that "math is hard. And math is required" is off putting to some girls.

I'm amazed how often people find out I play poker and they want to know if I can count cards...they think it's like this magical math brain thing that just mean you're a genius. Well, yes I can count cards and it's really easy and it doesn't apply in poker...

Thanks for your thoughts, I've also read about the gender differences in spatial reasoning ability but there seems to be many conflicting opinions on whether this is nature vs. nurture, or even exists at all. We exercise this an awful lot, especially in electrical engineering, because nearly everything we deal with is either completely invisible or occurs on an extremely small scale.

From what I've noticed personally, there is little to no difference between male and female students in my classes, although the sample size is so small that it's meaningless. I've had some female students who have done really well and some who had to come back again next semester, no different than male students.

I also wonder how much "social acceptability" of the activity or career choice comes into play, take for example a heavily female-dominated field such as nursing and look at the negative perception many male nurses encounter (gay, deviant, effeminate, not smart enough to be a doctor, etc.). If you reverse that, I wonder how much of the relative absence of female engineers, poker pros, commercial airline captains, etc. has to do with the perception that those are just not things that women should be spending their time on.

 

[Nutcracker69]

But I think we can all agree that the level of math required to be successful at poker is barely highschool level math...an most of it is grade school level math. At these levels girls have an equal aptitude to boys, though they frequently outperform the boys in a classroom setting.

So again...not the math itself but perhaps the perception that "math is hard. And math is required" is off putting to some girls.

I'm amazed how often people find out I play poker and they want to know if I can count cards...they think it's like this magical math brain thing that just mean you're a genius. Well, yes I can count cards and it's really easy and it doesn't apply in poker...

How many decks/shoes?

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

How many decks/shoes?

It doesn't matter because I just use a simple hi/lo count system. I can count 8 decks as easily as 1 deck but it's a more useful skill the more decks there are (more time to exploit once you ID a good shoe)

Seriously simple. much easier than poker math.

 

[Nutcracker69]

It doesn't matter because I just use a simple hi/lo count system. I can count 8 decks as easily as 1 deck but it's a more useful skill the more decks there are (more time to exploit once you ID a good shoe)

Seriously simple. much easier than poker math.

Are you willing to publicly state how much you've taken the casino for in blackjack?

If not, PM me.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Are you willing to publicly state how much you've taken the casino for in blackjack?

If not, PM me.

I had a relatively small net loss over 10 years of playing/counting.

 

[rifflemao]

Regarding all the hot pictures of girls laying on the felt etc, they're naturally appealing to us men, but I find myself somewhat disappointed for the women in poker doing that. I mean looking as attractive is possible is perfectly understandable, but but basically stripping down? Yeah thanks, nice to see you but I take you less seriously now, even if I shouldn't.

I realize it serves an advertisement purpose though and probably helps bring more young men to poker.

 

[Nutcracker69]

Regarding all the hot pictures of girls laying on the felt etc, they're naturally appealing to us men, but I find myself somewhat disappointed for the women in poker doing that. I mean looking as attractive is possible is perfectly understandable, but but basically stripping down? Yeah thanks, nice to see you but I take you less seriously now, even if I shouldn't.

I realize it serves an advertisement purpose though and probably helps bring more young men to poker.

If d*ck pics weren't reviled as all that is wrong with the Internet and interpersonal connection... and were instead revered as being so sexy they could help marketing efforts...

You still might see men champs posing with their trophy and money. But right next to it would be his d*ck pic.

LMAO

 

[Nutcracker69]

I had a relatively small net loss over 10 years of playing/counting.

So you're like a reverse rainman?

 

[TulasMoreno]

I think that a new "moneymaker" will come in the future.

 

[TimovieMan]

And hate to burst your bubble again (because I like your thoughts and generally agree with them) but I can speak professionally about your money management point. You didn't outright say it, but in MANY contemporary relationships, the woman handles the finances. Just ask TimMovieMan who had to get staked to start playing for real because his wouldn't let him deposit. She pays the bills and makes sure that most of the finances are in line. VERY FEW guys are as dumb as I was to COMPLETELY turn over my income which resulted in having no say whatsoever in how money was spent.

Please don't drag my personal situation - which you know NOTHING about - into your argument.

Getting staked had nothing to do with the missus handling the finances as we do that together, but had everything to do with me keeping the peace since the missus hates gambling and poker.

 

[Nutcracker69]

Please don't drag my personal situation - which you know NOTHING about - into your argument.

Getting staked had nothing to do with the missus handling the finances as we do that together, but had everything to do with me keeping the peace since the missus hates gambling and poker.

I repeated something that you posted on this forum, stating nothing but the truth. If you want to try and pretend that I was wrong in my statement, go ahead. If you want to be upset that YOUR OWN STATEMENT was repeated elsewhere on the forum in a COMPLETELY RELEVANT manner, you can go suck a a banana.

You seem to have really gotten on my ass pretty regularly since I pointed out that your early hands posted in your own rail thread indicated that you were playing terribly and making terrible decisions. You seem to forget, or not care, about the fact that I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you made significant progress in a short amount of time. Also, the other major point is that I think the VAST MAJORITY of people who play this game are absolutely terrible. I'm watching replays of pokerstars Sunday Millions and feel as though AT BEST one of the final 9 players is actually halfway good. Even though they all just made 10k-140k for their efforts, none of it seems to be based on good play and good decisions.

 

[xboxerdude]

brain structure, same reason as why there are more men in math

 

[thechamp5]

I just want to add to this discussion because it is very insightful. I am glad more and more women are playing and are successful. I am disappointed to see the sexualization in advertising, but I am often disappointed with advertising. I want to add to each of your points.

I read somewhere that women often ask for less money on average. But I think that it points toward the Gender/Culture argument you made. A lot of territory has opened up for women to explore that was socially unacceptable or they were unable to previously and so things are unknown and intimidating. This goes with your aunt example and how it took time for interest to develop. Two factors, one you (a generic not specific you, meaning the average woman) have no idea that its a possible interest because you never considered it. And the other being that it interests you but you might be intimidated to go against norms.
I do notice more women online which I am glad. I am glad that it takes the sting out of being a minority and I hope that the female portion of the community continues to grow.

 

[TimovieMan]

I repeated something that you posted on this forum, stating nothing but the truth.

Where? A quick search only lead to my quote "Depositing is out of the question (the missus would kill me)" which says NOTHING about how we handle our finances, nor that "she wouldn't let me" (where that would be hyperbole as "she doesn't want me to" would be more correct - like I said: it's more about keeping the peace).

If you want to try and pretend that I was wrong in my statement, go ahead.

I didn't find the exact quote, but I'm not saying you were wrong. I am saying you at least pulled it out of context and/or twisted my words, though.

If you want to be upset that YOUR OWN STATEMENT was repeated elsewhere on the forum in a COMPLETELY RELEVANT manner, you can go suck a a banana.

It was repeated in a thread I had no involvement in whatsoever. Not cool, dude.

You seem to have really gotten on my ass pretty regularly since I pointed out that your early hands posted in your own rail thread indicated that you were playing terribly and making terrible decisions.

Really? I thought it was pretty much since your very first post.

Anyway, should I be concerned about your apparent interest in stuff I posted months before you started posting regularly?




Now get this thread back on-topic.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

If d*ck pics weren't reviled as all that is wrong with the Internet and interpersonal connection... and were instead revered as being so sexy they could help marketing efforts...

You still might see men champs posing with their trophy and money. But right next to it would be his d*ck pic.

LMAO

I know you're joking about this....but seriously though if we were going to design a series of poker marketing campaigns to appeal to women, I don't know what they would look like...but I highly doubt it would be sexualized in any way.

I'm not saying that women aren't interested in sex....but it just doesn't seem to be used often in marketing to women. Perhaps this is because as a woman, any time you want sex in the world you can get it pretty easily....so it isn't much of a "carrot" to dangle in front of us. The motivation is different.

Romantic themes "sell" to women much more than sexual themes. As well as bonding/experience themes. Perhaps depicting a woman outplaying a man and then that man falls in love with her (but how do you do that in a print ad?) or perhaps depicting a group of well dressed business women playing poker together and having a good time....like a modern twist on ladies night out...

 

[Nutcracker69]

I know you're joking about this....but seriously though if we were going to design a series of poker marketing campaigns to appeal to women, I don't know what they would look like...but I highly doubt it would be sexualized in any way.

I'm not saying that women aren't interested in sex....but it just doesn't seem to be used often in marketing to women. Perhaps this is because as a woman, any time you want sex in the world you can get it pretty easily....so it isn't much of a "carrot" to dangle in front of us. The motivation is different.

Romantic themes "sell" to women much more than sexual themes. As well as bonding/experience themes. Perhaps depicting a woman outplaying a man and then that man falls in love with her (but how do you do that in a print ad?) or perhaps depicting a group of well dressed business women playing poker together and having a good time....like a modern twist on ladies night out...

Well, yeah, I was joking. But on the real, there are studies that show that, especially now that Internet Porn is free an anonymous, women seek and view it almost as frequently as men. First of all, I found this VERY hard to believe (even though most women I've been with are regular with porn and self-satisfaction) just because of how regular this is for most dudes.

And, although there are exceptions, most porn is basically POV of the dude and focuses on the woman and plenty of it doesn't even show the dude's face. (Which, let's be real, wouldn't there be more sex if it could happen without the dude's face? lol) Don't know what that says, just saying that's an observation of sorts.

To your point, do we need to get Fabio in on these Marketing efforts? Before his involvement in "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" he was the best at selling "Romance Novels"

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Well, yeah, I was joking. But on the real, there are studies that show that, especially now that Internet Porn is free an anonymous, women seek and view it almost as frequently as men. First of all, I found this VERY hard to believe (even though most women I've been with are regular with porn and self-satisfaction) just because of how regular this is for most dudes.

And, although there are exceptions, most porn is basically POV of the dude and focuses on the woman and plenty of it doesn't even show the dude's face. (Which, let's be real, wouldn't there be more sex if it could happen without the dude's face? lol) Don't know what that says, just saying that's an observation of sorts.

To your point, do we need to get Fabio in on these Marketing efforts? Before his involvement in "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" he was the best at selling "Romance Novels"

I just find that really hard to believe and I'd like to see that research about porn audience, and even upon viewing that research I'll be highly skeptical of their methodologies.

Maybe if you're comparing number of men vs. number of women who have EVER watched porn even once in their life, the numbers would be close...but if you're going based on quantity or frequency of consumption it won't even be close.

I'd believe something like 95% of men have seen porn at least once and and 85% of women have seen it at least once. But in terms of quantity I'd bet that the "average" man has sought out porn at least 200x more often than the "average" woman.

 

[Nutcracker69]

I just find that really hard to believe and I'd like to see that research about porn audience, and even upon viewing that research I'll be highly skeptical of their methodologies.

Maybe if you're comparing number of men vs. number of women who have EVER watched porn even once in their life, the numbers would be close...but if you're going based on quantity or frequency of consumption it won't even be close.

I'd believe something like 95% of men have seen porn at least once and and 85% of women have seen it at least once. But in terms of quantity I'd bet that the "average" man has sought out porn at least 200x more often than the "average" woman.

The one I was referring to I believed looked at number of days in a year that porn was viewed. My last ex has DEFINITELY viewed (and used) it wayyyyyyyy more than I ever have, and that is saying something!

They're just usually more on the DL about it. NOT HER though. lol

 

[S3mper]

According to the stats I found. I didn't look too deeply though. Men are 543% more likely to watch porn than women.

http://www.covenanteyes.com/pornstats/