Low numbers of women in poker

Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
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I know I've started a thread like this before, but it's been a couple years and the topic has come up again not just here on the forums, but on twitter and in real life etc.

There have been those who have suggested another poker "Boom" like the chris moneymaker effect simply cannot happen until more women start to become interested in poker. To me, that makes a lot of sense but I don't know how to make that happen.

I am basically starting this thread to move a current conversation out of a hand analysis thread that we were derailing. If you want to read the beginning part of the conversation, you can find that thread here: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tou...nlhe-mtt-turbo-wsop-crazy-296903/#post3131889

But basically I am responding to Nutcracker69, and anyone else who is interested.

I'd like to see more females getting involved with the "sport"

Psychologically speaking, you would think that the averge - above average female would RELISH the opportunity to take significant sums from men based on outperforming them, especially if even any of those said men are disrespectful to them during the process.

In the "normal world" women complain about various stats (that I can counter if need be) that suggest they make 70 cents on the dollar vs. men in the same position. This goes "all the way up the chain" to Jenifer Lawrence and Kelly Cuoco despite the fact that they're the highest paid actresses in their medium (JL - movies; KC - TV). And the argument is ALWAYS that, to be fair, if they perform at or above the level of comparable men then they should be rewarded with AT LEAST equal pay.

OK.

So now, here is an opportunity for you to put up the same amount of initial buy-in (10k, forgetting for a minute sattys, etc.) and, logic would indicate that IF YOU DO perform at or above your male peers you WILL be rewarded with larger sums as a result. Unless I'm missing something, isn't this an arena that provides women with exactly what they think is missing from MOST of the rest of the world?

NOW, I realize I'm preaching to the choir here because you play regularly and you get it. I'm not sure, maybe you, personally, don't want to see more women, since, on average, they are better players than men and therefore your EV on any entry would decline.

But I don't get it. If there is a suggestion that they don't have a firm enough grasp of the game to enter significant events... ok. BUT, look at the (what seems like) million men around the world who have a rudimentary understanding of the game. Probably less than half of them actually do what those same women who feel overmatched which are always talked about here: coaching, reading, studying, videos, and LOTS of "practice" play.

To me, it should be that simple. And yet it isn't and I don't know why.

It is NOT the "gambling" aspect, I know that FOR SURE. Stats show that while monetarily men risk more than women, I think that is due to being skewed by the high rollers who apparently have no problem losing 100 million on baccarat or chinese poker or whatever. But in terms of the gender of the average gambler across all forms/venues it is pretty even. They have no problem spending tons of time at slots machines or dropping their families entire disposable income for the month on either just big game lottery or also the scratch offs. In my time spent in Casinos, I've seen some groups of women mosey over to a blackjack table, roulette or craps. But they seem to have better control (or less patience I don't know) than guys I know who will sit there all night until it's all gone.

I guess my point is, if you're already willing to gamble, why not do it in an arena where (over the long term) your results will be based on your ability?

No one, including successful poker pro coaches I've had in the past have been able to explain this social "phenomena" to me. Their final answer was basically "oh well, more for me?"

Can you explain it or perhaps show where my logic/thinking is misguided?


I think the low numbers of women in poker is multi-faceted. And I think very little of it has to do with biology (though probably more than 0%) and mostly has to do with culture, soceital norms, expectations, traditional gender roles, opportunities etc.

INCOME DISPARITY/ OPPORTUNITY COST
First, you posit that although women reportedly earn 30% less than men, poker is a venture where the playing field is leveled and women can use it as a "proving grounds" that they can perform at levels equal to or better than men. That is one way of looking at it. But isn't another way of looking at it to say that since women earn 30% less than men, the buy in is effectively 30% HIGHER for women? I know that the cost is exactly the same in real dollars. But when you look at it in terms of percentage of expendible income....the buy in is more significant to the group who earns less.

For example, if you were to compile a list of the 10 richest and 10 poorest countries and compare those lists to wsop entrants from all countries....I'll bet you'd find that "rich" countries are represented at much higher rates than "poor" countries. It is not to suggest that people in those poor countries are any less smart or capable of doing well at poker....simply that the relative expense of entering those events is higher for people who earn less money.

But, even if the income disparity is a real reason it would only account for up to 30% fewer females than average...and we KNOW the actual numbers of females is much smaller (between 5-15% on average). So there is clearly something else going on here.

CULTURE, GENDER and COMPETITION

I think a bigger factor is cultural expectations and gender roles. Society does not generally promote a positive and optimistic view of competitive women....though it is slowly changing it wasn't that long ago that even high school sports offered nothing to girls aside from cheerleading. My aunt tried to start the first female basketball team in her high school in 1972 but they had less than the minimum 5 girls needed to play. It took until 1974 before she found 4 other girls willing to play (her junior year) and they played all 4 quarters with no subs and travelled long distances to find other female basketball teams to play against and there was virtually no funding from the school district. And this was a highschool with hundreds of students.

So yes, that is all changing but not overnight. Now, 40 years later we do have equal numbers of female sports as male sports offered in schools and colleges (only due to Title IX legislation) but after college there is almost zero opportunity for female professional athletes. So even females who are encouraged to pursue competitive sports and excel at them have a deep understanding that it will always just be a "hobby" and not a career. This may seem trivial....but actually it frames the way those women will view sports and competition for their whole lives.

GENDER NORMS AND FEMININITY
OK, aside from money and aside from competition there is the entire idea of femininity. Many women are concerned with seeming attractive to potential partners and husbands and therefore pursue more traditionally "feminine" things.



DOUBLE STANDARD in PARENTING and MOTHER'S GUILT
And then there is motherhood. We know that women are mothers at roughly the same rate as men are fathers, but the roles are treated very differently by society and even by ourselves. It is a well known phenomenon amongst women that mom's feel guilty for taking any "me" time, and dad's rarely feel the same way. And these can be very good dads too. If a man works 40 hours a week and only has saturday and sunday to spend with his family, he thinks nothing about spending half of saturday golfing with his buddies and spending Sunday afternoon watching sports and hiding in his "man cave". I know that's how it was in my family growing up. Meanwhile, the mom in the same family might take a ladies night or a spa day every few weeks, but she will feel at least some level of guilt for "abandoning" her children (even if she is the primary caregiver).

This "mother" complex extends beyond just mothers too. I know that I do feel some level of guilt when I go and play, but I get past it and juggle my priorities as best I can. But I am honestly shocked how often I am questioned at the table about "who is watching" my children or "what does your husband think about you being at the casino while he's watching the kids?" Now, usually these men aren't trying to imply I'm a bad mom, they are just making small talk and are genuinely curious about how a poker playing mom makes it work. But I have never heard any type of similar questions asked of the male poker players who are fathers (which is most of them). Presumably, most of the players in the poker room have "abandoned their children" but only the female poker players are questioned about it and made to feel like it is a deviant or questionable use of their time.


MARKETING WORKS IN EVERY OTHER BUSINESS, AND IT WORKS IN POKER TOO
Then there is poker marketing....it is almost exclusively marketed to men. Most of the time when a woman is shown in any kind of advertisement or promotion having to do with poker she is some scantily clad buxom beauty who is clinging to some man who is a poker "winner". Example: The royal flush girls. When women poker players ARE featured in an article or magazine it is frequently in some kind of sexy pose or in a sexy outfit where her male counterparts would be photographed smiling with a pile of chips or trophy in front of them. WHO is that marketed towards? Do you think female poker players are extremely interested in the cleavage and midriff of other female poker players?

GAMBLING TENDENCIES
You make a good argument that women "gamble" or frequent casinos in roughly the same numbers as men. I don't know if that is actually true....but in just looking around the casino it certainly "seems" true and yet women tend to gravitate towards the slot machines and men tend to gravitate more towards games of "skill". Why is this? I honestly don't know but if I had to guess, I'd say intimidation. Slot machines are not nearly as intimidating as sitting at a table full of strangers (men) who all seem to know what they are doing and you are just learning. Add to that fact that you stick out like a sore thumb so it's even tougher to "blend in" and seem like you know what you are doing....women just get WAAAAAAY more attention at the poker table.

I also find it interesting that among casino patrons, their average annual income is significantly higher than the national average...so you would assume since men earn more than women, that men would frequent casinos more often...so I'd infer from that data that women may treat casinos as casual entertainment and men treat it more of a "thrill" and the more they are risking the more "thrilling" it becomes....I don't know about that last part...just kind of a guess.

MONEY MANAGEMENT:
I find it interesting that even though women earn reportedly 25-30% less than their male counterparts, women tend to save MORE money in their 401-Ks than their male counterparts. And this is NOT adjusted for the income disparity. So they are overcoming the income gap and actually saving more than the men, so in essence they are saving 30+% more than their male counterparts. What does this suggest for gambling? I don't know really, but I find it interesting that women and men can approach their finances so differently. Maybe women feel more of a need for security than males do?




Now, I'm not really complaining about these things. It obviously hasn't deterred me and I'm the kind of person who has always enjoyed being different, and the attention that accompanies being different. But if we're talking about women in general....it adds a lot of pressure to be SO CONSPICUOUS in a situation compared to your competition. My sister, for example is a pretty decent online poker player but has to spend weeks gathering her courage every time she wants to go play in a casino. And even though she usually wins or breaks even at the casino she doesn't enjoy it like she enjoys online...she feels anxious and exposed and vulnerable the whole time.

ok....that's enough long winded rambling for now. I've got more but....
 
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Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Awards
6
eye candy
 

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Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Awards
6
And a few shots of female poker players. Please note I'm not judging or shaming these women at all. I look up to and adore most of them, and I say if you got it, flaunt it! Enjoy your time in the sun and squeeze every last dime out of your endorsement deals ladies! If I'm ever lucky enough to be featured in a poker photo shoot you can bet your ass I'm going to try and look as attractive as I can.

The only point I'm making is about poker advertising and marketing, we all know that sex sells. it just appears that poker marketers think men are the only customers....that's all.
 

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Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Awards
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and a few more for good measure. you're welcome! :)
 

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N

Nutcracker69

Visionary
I know I've started a thread like this before, but it's been a couple years and the topic has come up again not just here on the forums, but on twitter and in real life etc.

There have been those who have suggested another poker "Boom" like the chris moneymaker effect simply cannot happen until more women start to become interested in poker. To me, that makes a lot of sense but I don't know how to make that happen.

I am basically starting this thread to move a current conversation out of a hand analysis thread that we were derailing. If you want to read the beginning part of the conversation, you can find that thread here: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tou...nlhe-mtt-turbo-wsop-crazy-296903/#post3131889

But basically I am responding to Nutcracker69, and anyone else who is interested.




I think the low numbers of women in poker is multi-faceted. And I think very little of it has to do with biology (though probably more than 0%) and mostly has to do with culture, soceital norms, expectations, traditional gender roles, opportunities etc.

INCOME DISPARITY/ OPPORTUNITY COST
First, you posit that although women reportedly earn 30% less than men, poker is a venture where the playing field is leveled and women can use it as a "proving grounds" that they can perform at levels equal to or better than men. That is one way of looking at it. But isn't another way of looking at it to say that since women earn 30% less than men, the buy in is effectively 30% HIGHER for women? I know that the cost is exactly the same in real dollars. But when you look at it in terms of percentage of expendible income....the buy in is more significant to the group who earns less.

For example, if you were to compile a list of the 10 richest and 10 poorest countries and compare those lists to WSOP entrants from all countries....I'll bet you'd find that "rich" countries are represented at much higher rates than "poor" countries. It is not to suggest that people in those poor countries are any less smart or capable of doing well at poker....simply that the relative expense of entering those events is higher for people who earn less money.

But, even if the income disparity is a real reason it would only account for up to 30% fewer females than average...and we KNOW the actual numbers of females is much smaller (between 5-15% on average). So there is clearly something else going on here.

CULTURE, GENDER and COMPETITION

I think a bigger factor is cultural expectations and gender roles. Society does not generally promote a positive and optimistic view of competitive women....though it is slowly changing it wasn't that long ago that even high school sports offered nothing to girls aside from cheerleading. My aunt tried to start the first female basketball team in her high school in 1972 but they had less than the minimum 5 girls needed to play. It took until 1974 before she found 4 other girls willing to play (her junior year) and they played all 4 quarters with no subs and travelled long distances to find other female basketball teams to play against and there was virtually no funding from the school district. And this was a highschool with hundreds of students.

So yes, that is all changing but not overnight. Now, 40 years later we do have equal numbers of female sports as male sports offered in schools and colleges (only due to Title IX legislation) but after college there is almost zero opportunity for female professional athletes. So even females who are encouraged to pursue competitive sports and excel at them have a deep understanding that it will always just be a "hobby" and not a career. This may seem trivial....but actually it frames the way those women will view sports and competition for their whole lives.

GENDER NORMS AND FEMININITY
OK, aside from money and aside from competition there is the entire idea of femininity. Many women are concerned with seeming attractive to potential partners and husbands and therefore pursue more traditionally "feminine" things.



DOUBLE STANDARD in PARENTING and MOTHER'S GUILT
And then there is motherhood. We know that women are mothers at roughly the same rate as men are fathers, but the roles are treated very differently by society and even by ourselves. It is a well known phenomenon amongst women that mom's feel guilty for taking any "me" time, and dad's rarely feel the same way. And these can be very good dads too. If a man works 40 hours a week and only has saturday and sunday to spend with his family, he thinks nothing about spending half of saturday golfing with his buddies and spending Sunday afternoon watching sports and hiding in his "man cave". I know that's how it was in my family growing up. Meanwhile, the mom in the same family might take a ladies night or a spa day every few weeks, but she will feel at least some level of guilt for "abandoning" her children (even if she is the primary caregiver).

This "mother" complex extends beyond just mothers too. I know that I do feel some level of guilt when I go and play, but I get past it and juggle my priorities as best I can. But I am honestly shocked how often I am questioned at the table about "who is watching" my children or "what does your husband think about you being at the casino while he's watching the kids?" Now, usually these men aren't trying to imply I'm a bad mom, they are just making small talk and are genuinely curious about how a poker playing mom makes it work. But I have never heard any type of similar questions asked of the male poker players who are fathers (which is most of them). Presumably, most of the players in the poker room have "abandoned their children" but only the female poker players are questioned about it and made to feel like it is a deviant or questionable use of their time.


MARKETING WORKS IN EVERY OTHER BUSINESS, AND IT WORKS IN POKER TOO
Then there is poker marketing....it is almost exclusively marketed to men. Most of the time when a woman is shown in any kind of advertisement or promotion having to do with poker she is some scantily clad buxom beauty who is clinging to some man who is a poker "winner". Example: The royal flush girls. When women poker players ARE featured in an article or magazine it is frequently in some kind of sexy pose or in a sexy outfit where her male counterparts would be photographed smiling with a pile of chips or trophy in front of them. WHO is that marketed towards? Do you think female poker players are extremely interested in the cleavage and midriff of other female poker players?

GAMBLING TENDENCIES
You make a good argument that women "gamble" or frequent casinos in roughly the same numbers as men. I don't know if that is actually true....but in just looking around the casino it certainly "seems" true and yet women tend to gravitate towards the slot machines and men tend to gravitate more towards games of "skill". Why is this? I honestly don't know but if I had to guess, I'd say intimidation. Slot machines are not nearly as intimidating as sitting at a table full of strangers (men) who all seem to know what they are doing and you are just learning. Add to that fact that you stick out like a sore thumb so it's even tougher to "blend in" and seem like you know what you are doing....women just get WAAAAAAY more attention at the poker table.

I also find it interesting that among casino patrons, their average annual income is significantly higher than the national average...so you would assume since men earn more than women, that men would frequent casinos more often...so I'd infer from that data that women may treat casinos as casual entertainment and men treat it more of a "thrill" and the more they are risking the more "thrilling" it becomes....I don't know about that last part...just kind of a guess.

MONEY MANAGEMENT:
I find it interesting that even though women earn reportedly 25-30% less than their male counterparts, women tend to save MORE money in their 401-Ks than their male counterparts. And this is NOT adjusted for the income disparity. So they are overcoming the income gap and actually saving more than the men, so in essence they are saving 30+% more than their male counterparts. What does this suggest for gambling? I don't know really, but I find it interesting that women and men can approach their finances so differently. Maybe women feel more of a need for security than males do?




Now, I'm not really complaining about these things. It obviously hasn't deterred me and I'm the kind of person who has always enjoyed being different, and the attention that accompanies being different. But if we're talking about women in general....it adds a lot of pressure to be SO CONSPICUOUS in a situation compared to your competition. My sister, for example is a pretty decent online poker player but has to spend weeks gathering her courage every time she wants to go play in a casino. And even though she usually wins or breaks even at the casino she doesn't enjoy it like she enjoys online...she feels anxious and exposed and vulnerable the whole time.

ok....that's enough long winded rambling for now. I've got more but....
Jesus Christ, do you write a fking blog or something? lol

I actually appreciate that this has probably been the best/most interesting conversation I've been a part of on here thus far.

I've got no counterpoint to the fact that marketers have an agenda. Generally speaking, most advertising is really, really stupid. At least 75% of it comes out of New York and the average New York Ad Man hasn't evolved from Don Draper EVEN IF HE'S GAY. They think that America consists of 2 groups of people. 1) People from New York and 2) Everyone else who wishes they lived there (and could "make it there"). It disgusts me to no end, because I'm in Chicago and we're constantly AT BEST the 2nd city (except in things like murders and gun violence, we dominate that - oh and 3 out of the last 6 Stanley Cups but Hockey ratings are some of the lowest in sports). Even the VERY PROMINENT Ad company here sells out to "new york ideals" and this bullshit of what the ads should ..........fkkk it I'm done with this cuz I hate this topic but yeah poker marketing in general is atrocious and the WPT is the WORST offender. But look at the people running that ship and it's not hard to see why.

Next, to the mommy/daddy argument, you're a little off. Especially in today's "new school" environment where the major success is from 20 somethings, they are nowhere near fatherhood. Esfandiari finally did it at what? 44? and after he secured his place in the world with the One Drop win. Nice to see Mercier getting engaged, but we all know that an engagement can be anywhere from a week to 10-20 years sometimes it seems before a kid enters the picture (if at all). Also, no offense to her, I'd assume she's an awesome person, but seems to me like he made the "smart" play going for actual important relationship qualities rather than the hottest girl he could find (looking at YOU Tom Brady). That is, of course, because we all know that all women are on a graph with crazy on one axis and hot on the other. They're more than highly correlated. I tried the smart play in my marriage too and it blew up in my face. So yeah, I actually find that I'm one of the few dads in the room live and more than not, they're like me with tethered or no relationship with their kids at all (usually not by their chosing, although, historically stats show more choice there for average black fathers). So someone could try and give me sht about why I'm playing the WSOP instead of spending time with my son and I will at least be "relieved" from play that year if not banned because they're getting a serious beat down.

And hate to burst your bubble again (because I like your thoughts and generally agree with them) but I can speak professionally about your money management point. You didn't outright say it, but in MANY contemporary relationships, the woman handles the finances. Just ask TimMovieMan who had to get staked to start playing for real because his wouldn't let him deposit. She pays the bills and makes sure that most of the finances are in line. VERY FEW guys are as dumb as I was to COMPLETELY turn over my income which resulted in having no say whatsoever in how money was spent. (Can you tell I really loved my marriage?) But back to the point of my rebuttal. In the half-decade I spent as a Financial Advisor I can tell you that the 401k, etc., savings stats are skewed. There are SOME independent women who chose to save/invest at appropriate times in their lives/careers well before a suitable mate has arrived (if that's the end game). BUT, the amounts stocked away by these women is marginal, at best. It only SEEMS significant because, like me, almost every 20 something guy well before marriage is on the table views his current job and income as a stepping stone to what's next and better. So, sure, I could save whatever like 2-5% of my salary in a 401(k) that gets 100% company matching (once vested) to start planning for the future. But two problems there: 1) If you're smart, you should be able to take that same "investment" and get significantly better returns elsewhere (especially since most programs limit your "investment" choices) and (2) Congratulations! You've just stocked away money that you can't touch until your 60s without significant tax penalties (with minor exceptions). All that being said, I've had 2 401(k)s. In both instances, I was mostly trying to use my company's match as "free money" and made ALL my own investment choices. I have an MBA in Financial Analysis and Investments. As a kid, even if the dumbest kids in the school were put on my team, we always won the stock market challenge. When I was still able to run my fund, we were one of 2 funds that outpaced the S&P and other placemarkers for 10 straight years. The other fund was run by Bernie Madoff. LMMFAO. Sht it's late and now I'm way off topic. Long story short, the stats seem to show greater 401(k) and other savings from women for two reasons. In a relationship, the main breadwinner being a man is going to have "his" money used to pay for most of living expenses and every stupid fking extracurricular their dumb kids try every year. The woman's money, which is significantly less, is freed up to be "smart" and do things like invest in 401(k)s. That's not to say this wouldn't have been possible more organically. I had a client who put away maybe $25 or $50 into a dogsht fund every month because she was fresh out of college and basically made no money. Yet she was much easier to convince that she ought to start with SOMETHING rather than her 20 something counterparts who saw "investing/saving" as taking away from their weekend beer money with friends. (And not to sound even more shovanistic but IMO, especially in the club scene where I spent my young adult life guys couldn't leave the house with less than $100 (or double) if they wanted to enjoy themselves at all. My girl friends flaunted the fact that they either left the house with NO MONEY AT ALL or they essentially hid some in their tiny purses for emergencies and then proceeded to have their whole nights paid for them.) Point being the stats back it up but it's a misnomer and an externality rather than simply a character/gender difference.

Now again, speaking to general differences in exposure to the game. We all know about the MANY successful millionaires (unless they got shtty 70/30 or worse staking deals like Dave likes) who played in school, but quit before graduating and now play full time. You hear a lot less of this from women. Maria Ho, who has arguably the best showing in the WSOP Main in recent years for women not only did school first, but American Idol, Amazing Race and like 100 other things while grinding lower levels. Hell, Selbst became a lawyer first. Comparatively speaking, you hear ALL THE TIME about dudes (who probably had no shot at getting laid that night) getting a group together to have a poker night. Part of the "intimidation" your talk about mostly with your sister is actually felt by almost all newbies. Average guys just have the advantage of having started with their friends to give them the hubris to step to the table.

I don't fault your logic that if they're unfortunate enough to have 30% less funds, the entry fee is proportionally more for them. But you also concede that it clearly doesn't account for the entire difference. Also, we're not really talking about high roller events. Even the MAIN is still only the same 10k it was YEARS ago. There are plenty of chances to win a bracelet with an entry of just a few hundred dollars. And while I'm in that lovely 10% that can't afford it, most can, it's just a matter of taking that "chance."

By the way, your totally valid point about "competitive" women in sports can kiss my ass. Because of stupid ass Title IX, I had to wait until my junior year of HS to be able to play volleyball. I didn't start until I was a Senior and then I was all-state. But volleyball, like runway modelling is for tall people. I would only be tall if I traveled to some Asian countries. So, the VERY FEW full ride scholarships to college for GUYS to play volleyball were NOT EXACTLY seeking out right-side hitters like me, especially since about 95% of teams went with a 2 setter and/or setter and backrow specialist and NO right-side hitter, including my team when I was a junior. So I started as a backrow specialist and happened to get really good at backrow defense, but was basically forbidden from getting a chance to ever approach the net (where I later DOMINATED the next year -- I'm short but I had pro-sized hops). So I had to go and "try out" for the Club team at my college, because like most colleges and universities Men's Volleyball was not a sanctioned sport. I was the last to get cut which feels exactly the same as bubbling a major poker tourney. Turns out the guys on the team were typical douchebags so I would've been playing to play and not for anything social.
Sorry, I'm still bitter about how Title IX stole my happiness. :)
I honestly think a more valid point is competitive women in business, rather than sports. Because at least in sports Olympic stars are given "some" due even if their counterparts earn more. In business, just look at Carly Fiorina. Granted, she almost single-handedly destroyed what was once a very viable business model. But a man with an attitude/temper/opinion can be viewed as a strong leader (even if he's an asshole like Steve Jobs) but a woman with any fire is just seen as a bitch. And that's at all levels of the workforce.
But that actually kinda makes my original contention that these "bitches" should want to put up or shutup and put the men in their place by taking down their precious tournament. Kathy Laney (sp?) seems to take this approach.

Then you have your point about femininity. I see it, but don't really buy it. I thought Vanessa Ruosso was attractive until I saw Ebony Kenney. (1) I don't prefer short-haired girls and (2) I'm not being racist, just honest that I've generally been attracted to less black (any %) girls than most other races. Yet, like most men in the poker world, I would clearly not throw her out of bed. That being said, despite the fact that I'm normally somewhere between attractive and "hot" that situation is NEVER happening. Point is, you can be a "girl's girl" or "girly girl" and still have no problem raking in the chips. To your later point, it certainly doesn't hurt for sponsorship deals if you find success in the game. Although you may find that the 12 hour a day grind leaves you preferring to wear a hat which, in normal life, is not a symbol of femininity or male preference. But it's poker where traditionally the majority of players opt for caps. Myself, included... despite having an awesome hair faux hawk. I say that gently, noticing your cap in your profile pic. No offense intended. Caps for everyone!

So now we've both typed out a lot of information here (and I look forward to your reply) but I don't think that even combined we have scratched the surface, gotten to the root cause, or been enlightened with any solutions. Do I need to link you to that other thread on here currently? I did my best to rip those guys a new one because it was typical woman-bashing nonsense about how women poker players are absolutely terrible. These idiots think that because there has only been one Barbara Enright that that somehow proves that women are inferior players. In many tournaments, the % of cashing women is greater than the % of women entrants. So, yeah, it basically proves that they're better.

You guys think that a "pro" is incapable of being rattled or "tilted" in any way. Put me in a game with whoever you think the best right now is.... Brian Rast, Doug Polk, Jason Mercier and given an opportunity to prepare some material and then cards to beat them down even a little I GUARANTEE I get in their heads. Rast is easy because he's honestly a lucky fk donkey. Simply pointing that out and then beating him in enough marginal spots would easily do it since he was so rattled by the notion that he was bluffed off a big pot at the WPT A8 Vegas FT suggesting his opponent turned 22 fh counterfeited by 3rd ace into a bluff on the river when Rast had a middle PP... when in fact his opponent had quad aces and never showed. Polk I'm not sure I have material yet. Mercier might lose his cool (at least a little, he's pretty cool/calm) if i can crack his aces at least once and then remind him of the millions he missed out on ALL those A8 appearances getting felted holding aces.

What's my point? Put me up against ANY female intermediate to pro and I basically have no chance of rattling them. It's like their immune. Where we can easily get hung up on the previous hand, it's like they immediately move on to the next one until there is no next one. I'd take a wild guess that Phil Helmuth would react slightly differently to this runout than Jen Harman did:

 
poketcardz

poketcardz

Enthusiast
yea we need c more ladies at the tables more girly faces in steed of all the dudes when any one can play just as good there are so many styles of way ppl play and can change it up and would fell better a girl takeing my chips /cash any day lol
 
N

Nutcracker69

Visionary
yea we need c more ladies at the tables more girly faces in steed of all the dudes when any one can play just as good there are so many styles of way ppl play and can change it up and would fell better a girl takeing my chips /cash any day lol

I don't want anyone taking my chips. Ever. I want to win every pot. I don't even like when I have 1-3 outs to win and end of splitting because it's half a loss and I never learned how to share.

I started this conversation by saying we need more women in poker. I continued it by saying they're better than us on average.

That doesn't mean I actually want them taking my chips though. #ZeroSumGame
 
N

Nutcracker69

Visionary
Hey like 80% or more of those of us born before probably 1985, I was hit by my mom. Therefore, women are terrible at poker.
 
milka1605

milka1605

Legend
Awards
2
Women generally do not perceive poker as a worthy occupation for wasting time.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Awards
6
In response to nutcracker69, regarding the femininity I'm not talking about women who are already poker players, and how feminine or not feminine they choose to dress/behave. I'm talking about appealing to the masses of non-poker playing women; poker can seem "unfeminine" and therefore unattractive to women (as a potential hobby) if they care about that sort of thing.

e·mo·tion·al in·tel·li·gence
noun
the capacity to be aware of, control, and express one's emotions, and to handle interpersonal relationships judiciously and empathetically.
"emotional intelligence is the key to both personal and professional success"

With regards to tilt; I think you actually bring up a very good point. Of course all humans are capable of tilting or "being rattled" if you push their buttons just right. But it does seem, in my extremely biased opinion, the women poker players tend to handle needling/berating/bad beats etc much better at the poker table than the male population on average.

In all my years of playing I've only seen 1 female player have an emotional outburst at the table. But I've seen countless men go on tilt, lose their cool, attack, revenge punt their stacks, berate and intimidate other players. I'm not suggesting that it's all men, but it does seem to be more prevalent that male players have a more difficult time controlling their emotions in poker.

it's funny because I hear people (males) frequently say that women "are too emotional" to be as good of players as men...it's a surprisingly common assumption. I have no clue where that comes from. Do men forget that anger, rage, jealousy, frustration, humiliation are all emotions? I think men associate "emotion" to mean "crying" and they are conjuring up the wrong memories.

I do think it is more common in arguments in regular life for women to be brought to tears and for men to rage and yell and boom. But at the poker table I've never seen a woman cry; I have seen a man cry at the poker table though (WSOP main event bust out hand of Matt Afleck).

So, I do not think women are more or less emotional than men as a whole, but I do think women have higher emotional intelligence (on average) than men. And I don't believe this is entirely biological either. From an early age women are encouraged or at least allowed to express and process their emotions, and to talk about them and learn from the process....which means as they age they have greater and greater ability to quickly identify and process their emotions in real time so as to have a minimum impact on their life.

Men, by contrast are encouraged to repress and hide their emotions from an early age. Expressing or talking about their feelings is often viewed as a sign of "weakness". Just this morning my 7 year old son was crying out of frustration about something and my husband ridiculed and shamed him for "acting like a girl". I don't condone this type of parenting, but we're not perfect parents and we're learning as we go. I can only assume that most boys as they grown into men experience a similar spoken or unspoken pressure to "bottle it all up" and "act like a man" which works fine until it doesn't. A lot of these men have a complete or partial inability to process difficult emotions in stressful situations.

And I think primarily this emotional intelligence is learned, but possibly a portion of it might be biological. Throughout history women have been the ones raising the family and keeping the household together in relative peace while men were the ones "protecting" and "hunting" and generally dealing with conflict. Women seem to be more capable of taking an injustice in stride and making the best out of a bad situation.
 
lorres1991

lorres1991

Rock Star
I know that I'm personally turned off from playing live poker because of how men often act at the table towards women. Many men have awful social awareness, and like unwanted flirting at work, unwanted flirting at the poker table is similarly annoying. I get the feeling some of these guys don't talk to women much.

Even wearing my wedding ring I'll have guys trying to get me drinks (even when they are free, gee thanks I couldn't order myself if I wanted one), making weird comments, and so on. When guys talk to each other at the poker table, they chat about sports, politics, whatever. A certain percentage of guys will start talking to me like we are on a speed date even when I'm trying to join in on the sports/current events/whatever chat that the table is having. It can really ruin the experience.
 
S

Streethawk71

Enthusiast
5 out of 16 of the players at my local game are female.
I hope this increases - not because I want to see "girly faces" but because I'd like to see more players of any sex. Some of us are rich, some of us like sport, some of us can cook, some of us can bear children. I have a belief that if you concentrate on those things that make us different then, even if you're actively trying to level the field, you can't change any perceptions because you are still focusing on the differences.
I play with 15 other poker players that love a good, friendly, cut-throat game and THAT is what we have in common.
 
N

Nutcracker69

Visionary
In response to nutcracker69, regarding the femininity I'm not talking about women who are already poker players, and how feminine or not feminine they choose to dress/behave. I'm talking about appealing to the masses of non-poker playing women; poker can seem "unfeminine" and therefore unattractive to women (as a potential hobby) if they care about that sort of thing.

e·mo·tion·al in·tel·li·gence
noun
the capacity to be aware of, control, and express one's emotions, and to handle interpersonal relationships judiciously and empathetically.
"emotional intelligence is the key to both personal and professional success"

With regards to tilt; I think you actually bring up a very good point. Of course all humans are capable of tilting or "being rattled" if you push their buttons just right. But it does seem, in my extremely biased opinion, the women poker players tend to handle needling/berating/bad beats etc much better at the poker table than the male population on average.

In all my years of playing I've only seen 1 female player have an emotional outburst at the table. But I've seen countless men go on tilt, lose their cool, attack, revenge punt their stacks, berate and intimidate other players. I'm not suggesting that it's all men, but it does seem to be more prevalent that male players have a more difficult time controlling their emotions in poker.

it's funny because I hear people (males) frequently say that women "are too emotional" to be as good of players as men...it's a surprisingly common assumption. I have no clue where that comes from. Do men forget that anger, rage, jealousy, frustration, humiliation are all emotions? I think men associate "emotion" to mean "crying" and they are conjuring up the wrong memories.

I do think it is more common in arguments in regular life for women to be brought to tears and for men to rage and yell and boom. But at the poker table I've never seen a woman cry; I have seen a man cry at the poker table though (WSOP main event bust out hand of Matt Afleck).

So, I do not think women are more or less emotional than men as a whole, but I do think women have higher emotional intelligence (on average) than men. And I don't believe this is entirely biological either. From an early age women are encouraged or at least allowed to express and process their emotions, and to talk about them and learn from the process....which means as they age they have greater and greater ability to quickly identify and process their emotions in real time so as to have a minimum impact on their life.

Men, by contrast are encouraged to repress and hide their emotions from an early age. Expressing or talking about their feelings is often viewed as a sign of "weakness". Just this morning my 7 year old son was crying out of frustration about something and my husband ridiculed and shamed him for "acting like a girl". I don't condone this type of parenting, but we're not perfect parents and we're learning as we go. I can only assume that most boys as they grown into men experience a similar spoken or unspoken pressure to "bottle it all up" and "act like a man" which works fine until it doesn't. A lot of these men have a complete or partial inability to process difficult emotions in stressful situations.

And I think primarily this emotional intelligence is learned, but possibly a portion of it might be biological. Throughout history women have been the ones raising the family and keeping the household together in relative peace while men were the ones "protecting" and "hunting" and generally dealing with conflict. Women seem to be more capable of taking an injustice in stride and making the best out of a bad situation.

WOW. I know you made valuable points but I can't get past the fact that you, who I have come to have great respect for in a short amount of time, would chose to marry a man for a long enough period of time to have a 7 year old boy who he reacts to this way.

Honestly, I'm kinda shocked. Family/Kids/etc. are OFF LIMITS on poker discussions, I know that, so I won't belabor the point. AND I'll add that I made a horrendous decision in who to marry that led to a kid that is now a moot point.

Sorry if I offend, but I was really taken aback to read that. ...even though, at least for a certain generation, (not mine) that is totally commonplace.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Awards
6
WOW. I know you made valuable points but I can't get past the fact that you, who I have come to have great respect for in a short amount of time, would chose to marry a man for a long enough period of time to have a 7 year old boy who he reacts to this way.

Honestly, I'm kinda shocked. Family/Kids/etc. are OFF LIMITS on poker discussions, I know that, so I won't belabor the point. AND I'll add that I made a horrendous decision in who to marry that led to a kid that is now a moot point.

Sorry if I offend, but I was really taken aback to read that. ...even though, at least for a certain generation, (not mine) that is totally commonplace.

He's not a perfect dad or husband and I'm not a perfect wife or Mom but we talk about these things; we're both open to improving and I don't think you throw people away or break up families because they do some things you disapprove of. It's s recipe for being alone and disappointed.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Awards
6
On a more positive note we have TWO female chip leaders in the WSOP main event right now half way through day 4.

Melanie weisner and Maria ho are in 1st and 2nd with Louise francoeur, Jennifer shahade and gaelle bauman not too far behind all with above average stacks!!
 

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N

Nutcracker69

Visionary
He's not a perfect dad or husband and I'm not a perfect wife or Mom but we talk about these things; we're both open to improving and I don't think you throw people away or break up families because they do some things you disapprove of. It's s recipe for being alone and disappointed.

Yeah that wasn't my point. It was more about how you seem to be very intelligent, have great judgment and are good at expecting outcomes. I doubt that only pertains to your poker life, because I see that in how you act/interact on here too. So I guess it is more to do with the fact that I seriously doubt you wanted this trait in your mate, but there it is. AGAIN, I am the WORLD'S WORST without question when it comes to relationship choices. So this is NOT the pot calling the kettle black. I just assumed you were better than me, and you likely are. But this seemed like an "interesting" wrinkle. ;)

carry on
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

Visionary
Awards
4
as a room manager I do everything i can to make the women feel comfortable and try to get them coming back, I kiss their asses and afford them more opportunities for live list placement, and seat changes - far more than I do for the guys even if they are diehard regs.

I also encourage women to become dealers, and have even trained them, some for free if they are going to work for me. I do whatever I can because we need more female dealers as well as players
 
N

Nutcracker69

Visionary
as a room manager I do everything i can to make the women feel comfortable and try to get them coming back, I kiss their asses and afford them more opportunities for live list placement, and seat changes - far more than I do for the guys even if they are diehard regs.

I also encourage women to become dealers, and have even trained them, some for free if they are going to work for me. I do whatever I can because we need more female dealers as well as players

This will sound strange since I'm so pro-female players, but i generally don't care for most female dealers I've come across. The sense that I get is they're so used to borderline sexual harassment at their jobs that they had REALLY bad attitudes. I ask for a seat change button (which the casino allows to anyone at all times) and they have a hissy fit like I just asked them to go down on me while they deal. Hate to break it to you ladies, but not everyone at the table is objectifying you. Get over yourself and do your job. ALSO, on average, they tend to get "caught" actively rooting for one player over another far too often. IMHO, that sht has no business in a respectable establishment.
 
thetick33

thetick33

Legend
Awards
4
In response to nutcracker69, regarding the femininity I'm not talking about women who are already poker players, and how feminine or not feminine they choose to dress/behave. I'm talking about appealing to the masses of non-poker playing women; poker can seem "unfeminine" and therefore unattractive to women (as a potential hobby) if they care about that sort of thing.

e·mo·tion·al in·tel·li·gence
noun
the capacity to be aware of, control, and express one's emotions, and to handle interpersonal relationships judiciously and empathetically.
"emotional intelligence is the key to both personal and professional success"

With regards to tilt; I think you actually bring up a very good point. Of course all humans are capable of tilting or "being rattled" if you push their buttons just right. But it does seem, in my extremely biased opinion, the women poker players tend to handle needling/berating/bad beats etc much better at the poker table than the male population on average.

In all my years of playing I've only seen 1 female player have an emotional outburst at the table. But I've seen countless men go on tilt, lose their cool, attack, revenge punt their stacks, berate and intimidate other players. I'm not suggesting that it's all men, but it does seem to be more prevalent that male players have a more difficult time controlling their emotions in poker.

it's funny because I hear people (males) frequently say that women "are too emotional" to be as good of players as men...it's a surprisingly common assumption. I have no clue where that comes from. Do men forget that anger, rage, jealousy, frustration, humiliation are all emotions? I think men associate "emotion" to mean "crying" and they are conjuring up the wrong memories.

I do think it is more common in arguments in regular life for women to be brought to tears and for men to rage and yell and boom. But at the poker table I've never seen a woman cry; I have seen a man cry at the poker table though (WSOP main event bust out hand of Matt Afleck).

So, I do not think women are more or less emotional than men as a whole, but I do think women have higher emotional intelligence (on average) than men. And I don't believe this is entirely biological either. From an early age women are encouraged or at least allowed to express and process their emotions, and to talk about them and learn from the process....which means as they age they have greater and greater ability to quickly identify and process their emotions in real time so as to have a minimum impact on their life.

Men, by contrast are encouraged to repress and hide their emotions from an early age. Expressing or talking about their feelings is often viewed as a sign of "weakness". Just this morning my 7 year old son was crying out of frustration about something and my husband ridiculed and shamed him for "acting like a girl". I don't condone this type of parenting, but we're not perfect parents and we're learning as we go. I can only assume that most boys as they grown into men experience a similar spoken or unspoken pressure to "bottle it all up" and "act like a man" which works fine until it doesn't. A lot of these men have a complete or partial inability to process difficult emotions in stressful situations.

And I think primarily this emotional intelligence is learned, but possibly a portion of it might be biological. Throughout history women have been the ones raising the family and keeping the household together in relative peace while men were the ones "protecting" and "hunting" and generally dealing with conflict. Women seem to be more capable of taking an injustice in stride and making the best out of a bad situation.

first wanting to say think woman care more than a gambling man on lifehood and goods. They are told must have a good home family be a pillar of community. A man goes out plays poker etc.. he is blacksheep accepted but how many girls 20 years old can go to family and say hey im quitting college and playing poker for a living? How many families would get behind that? Mens families am sure are plenty ok he will get it out of his system in a couple years than go to work:) So is obvious disparity on how everything is viewed.

I bolded the bold cause ive found it much easier to tilt females professional ones especially than men in the past. They play too aggressive a majority of the time and also have expection imho of just handing them everything.

Perfect example was full tilt clonie gowen I played her a lot in 2008-2009 and she would get bitter and id tilt her and shed start playing badly. I would warn her I have pro skills so stop trying to run me over etc.. but 8 out of 10 nights played with her id get her riled where she would lose a stack to me or others.

Everyone has weaknesses though phil hellmuth was same way to get off his game but he plays a way every time so knowing that to play back at him drives him insane was a pretty easy tell lol

Poker is not an accepted business profession and would seem to be looked at a lot worse for a woman than a man.

I hope for more woman and I think the ones I play online are very good players. Yet how many play each game and believe they are destined to win that game?

I think even though havent played yet I am destined to win wsop and some wpt events. But if I dont I am ok not getting there to.

For me poker is a love is not about money.
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

Visionary
Awards
4
This will sound strange since I'm so pro-female players, but i generally don't care for most female dealers I've come across. The sense that I get is they're so used to borderline sexual harassment at their jobs that they had REALLY bad attitudes. I ask for a seat change button (which the casino allows to anyone at all times) and they have a hissy fit like I just asked them to go down on me while they deal. Hate to break it to you ladies, but not everyone at the table is objectifying you. Get over yourself and do your job. ALSO, on average, they tend to get "caught" actively rooting for one player over another far too often. IMHO, that sht has no business in a respectable establishment.

This boils down to bad management and training.

The female dealers I know around Detroit, Las Vegas and Tampa can handle most situations with ease because more often than not if a player acts up against them the player will be removed (as in my case above). Now, I do know a few that will lash out more at the players for acting up, do not confuse this with being a hissy fit, they are just fighting back, something a lot of male dealers do not do (and should) because you can NEVER let the inmates run the asylum, and once they think they can it becomes a nightmare.

Management has to get tough on bad mouth players, we do not stand for it at my rooms and do not 'need' those players present to be successful, we are not afraid to kick people out and even ban them for bad behavior.

All dealers need to be trained to handle bad situations, and with more and more poker rooms opening worldwide, there is a great need for good trainers as well as good dealers, I see a lot of rooms hiring anyone just to have someone in the box - which is becoming a big problem especially during the Vegas summer series's, even if they have no previous live experience. I bet you will see a boom in training schools across the land - I am even trying to open a new one in Michigan to serve the Mid-West, the 2 schools we have in Michigan are a joke.
 
N

Nutcracker69

Visionary
This boils down to bad management and training.

The female dealers I know around Detroit, Las Vegas and Tampa can handle most situations with ease because more often than not if a player acts up against them the player will be removed (as in my case above). Now, I do know a few that will lash out more at the players for acting up, do not confuse this with being a hissy fit, they are just fighting back, something a lot of male dealers do not do (and should) because you can NEVER let the inmates run the asylum, and once they think they can it becomes a nightmare.

Management has to get tough on bad mouth players, we do not stand for it at my rooms and do not 'need' those players present to be successful, we are not afraid to kick people out and even ban them for bad behavior.

All dealers need to be trained to handle bad situations, and with more and more poker rooms opening worldwide, there is a great need for good trainers as well as good dealers, I see a lot of rooms hiring anyone just to have someone in the box - which is becoming a big problem especially during the Vegas summer series's, even if they have no previous live experience. I bet you will see a boom in training schools across the land - I am even trying to open a new one in Michigan to serve the Mid-West, the 2 schools we have in Michigan are a joke.

Again, asking for a seat change button which is allowed at all times in this particular casino is VERY FAR from "acting up"... there is no call for the reaction I get. Just do your fcking job and shut the fck up.
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

Visionary
Awards
4
Again, asking for a seat change button which is allowed at all times in this particular casino is VERY FAR from "acting up"... there is no call for the reaction I get. Just do your fcking job and shut the fck up.

Agreed. This is where bad management comes in, when dealers do this type of stuff they need to be reprimanded and re-trained (or trained for that matter). As a player, do not feel bad complaining to the floor about the dealers, its the only way they will learn to not act like that. They either started dealing this way from the start or became this way do to treatment from players - either way both are a management problem, and I believe have absolutely nothing to do with sex, I see BS action from both male and female dealers almost equally.

Players and dealers alike need to step up and 'save the game' so to speak. There is nothing wrong with criticisms and complaints, if done correctly and have merit (not like the idiot who complains food is bad just to get a discount on the bill - even though it was just fine). Avoid saying anything in front of other players if possible, react CALMLY and have details of the wrong doing. Dont just say 'dealer (or player) was acting like a jerk'. Players are paying to play, and dealers are getting a good amount of money for a job - they both need to do the right thing or face consequences. If this is not happening then perhaps find a different room, because it will only get worse. (although during Vegas summer series you will run into a ton of bad dealers - not much we can do here until a new generation of GOOD dealers are trained)
 
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cazual88

cazual88

Visionary
I taught my wife the basics of Hold'em. And I continue to give her advice. And she was pretty well played. Today, she decided to take a deposit to participate in the freeroll with a million in prize money. We are both in it to participate, in the same room for different computers. On the results of her game, I will write in this topic :)
 
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