inquisitive question about "chasing"

player7000

player7000

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Hey all,
I want to throw something out here and get some responses because I have struggled with this in the past!I know there are a million scenarios but just respond in a general sense. Let's say you are at a mtt. You are mid way to the $. You have the average amount of chips that are in the tourn. You are in mid position! You are dealt K,10 of hearts. You raise pre-flop to 3 times the big blind. 2 callers. 1 behind you in early position and the small blind. The flop comes Jh,2c,3h. The early position bets 1/2 the pot.Do you call?My real question here is,at what point do you determine whether to chase your flush? Is it pot percentage(if so what %)? Is it position?Or is it odd percentage of hitting your hand?

I also thought about this for straights too!But I know it would be different for open end straights,belly busters,or double ended ones!


Please reply because I am very interested in your thoughts.Again I tried to make this as detailed a hand as I could but will also like to hear about this type of hand in general!

I hate this hand!!!!!!!!!!!! :jh4: :jc4:
 
Kenzie 96

Kenzie 96

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Try folding pre flop.
 
zachvac

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Although Kenzie's right about folding PF (if it were late position this may be a nice steal hand, but in mid position you really don't want to mess around with that type of hand, but you hit a nice flop.

At this point we can only hope that one of the 2 opponents does not have Ax of hearts, as at that point we may as well be drawing dead. If they don't (which is overwhelming majority of the time), you have 9 outs to the flush, and possibly 3 outs with the K. Half pot gives you 3:1 odds to call, meaning you need at least a 25% to call. If you're just chasing a flush, this is a bad play, but if the K would also give you the best hand (a very lofty assumption) then you have odds to call. The problem is in this situation I don't see how we can assume that our K is an out and the few times you're up against Ax of hearts you get hit bad if a heart comes. There's also a small chance they flopped a set and that not only can beat a pair of kings but also has a draw to a full house which will beat you no matter what comes. I would fold here.
 
reglardave

reglardave

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Although Kenzie's right about folding PF (if it were late position this may be a nice steal hand, but in mid position you really don't want to mess around with that type of hand, but you hit a nice flop.

At this point we can only hope that one of the 2 opponents does not have Ax of hearts, as at that point we may as well be drawing dead. If they don't (which is overwhelming majority of the time), you have 9 outs to the flush, and possibly 3 outs with the K. Half pot gives you 3:1 odds to call, meaning you need at least a 25% to call. If you're just chasing a flush, this is a bad play, but if the K would also give you the best hand (a very lofty assumption) then you have odds to call. The problem is in this situation I don't see how we can assume that our K is an out and the few times you're up against Ax of hearts you get hit bad if a heart comes. There's also a small chance they flopped a set and that not only can beat a pair of kings but also has a draw to a full house which will beat you no matter what comes. I would fold here.

I both agree and disagree with this somewhat. After the flop, getting 3 to 1 on your money just chasing the flush is actually mathematically correct at this point. If you blank on the turn, then it's time to get away, definitely, but 9 outs to improvce after the flop makes this a fairly easy call.

That said, I also question somewhat the preflop decision of opening from middle position with an easily dominated hand, but once you've done so, you hit a great flop for your hand and should see it out at least one more street. What result did you expect/hope to get when you raised with this hand? Short of a boat flop, or AQJh, you could hardly order anything better. So, you get better than you had any rigfht to expect, and wanna cave to a standard raise? Just suppose, for a moment, that a K had hit the board on the flop, and a 1/2 pot raise came in front of you, then what? Fold? Go allin, knowing you could easily be really thin already?

These are the pitfalls (some of) of not thinking ahead.
 
dj11

dj11

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I will on occasion pay to see a flop with hands like this. I might even call a raise , but would want better position generally. I don't like your raise open, I would want to take the chance to see a cheap flop here, and would probably limp, but a min raise PF is not out of the question. It would discourage most iffy hands, the same ones your standard raise discouraged.

There is a point mid MTT when playing looser gets profitable, but one has to be on guard.

In this particular case, I think I would want to see another card.
 
zachvac

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3:1 isn't mathematically correct for a flush draw, 9 cards help you, 9/47 << 25% (it's a little over 19%). You may argue we have implied odds, but mathematically we do not have odds to call in this situation with just the flush draw.
 
P

phatjose

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I think it also depends on whether or not we think the person acting behind us will call the bet as well. If he does, now we are getting the odds to call. As it is, I don't like playing K10s in early/mid position as this is the type of hand that can easily make the second best hand and burn you for playing it (way too many donks play any suited ace, so I'm not counting on the flush until I see the ace hit the board). The bet itself looks like a blocking bet though, so we may very well be ahead in the hand already. Regardless of what I think the person acting after us is doing, I think I call this and see what the turn brings.
 
player7000

player7000

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Thanks for the reply guys! I would be cautious with this hand too. I made this hand up just for general discussion.My problem is that more times than not I will be in a tourney and get rag starting hands.Then usually by the middle of a tourney K 10 of h's looks pretty good.There's a place in a tourney that if you get nothing but rags you soon realize that you have to start playing SOMETHING or else you will blind out! And once you get short stacked your nothing but shark bait anyway!
 
Chris_TC

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I don't mind the raise with KTh from (late) middle position. This is certainly playable, but realize that you really need post flop skill if you get callers. If the flop comes King high you might be facing tough decisions.

In the situation as described I'd certainly call the flop bet. The King is likely good*, so is the flush. This gives you 12 outs.
*be careful about a possible KJ though

Note that I'd fold if I were holding e.g. T9h. For one thing we'd suddenly be drawing to a Ten high flush which is more dangerous, and we wouldn't have the overcard.
 
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