i made a difference! mwahahaha!

[zachvac]

zachvac, since your parents knew about your poker playing, let's extend the argument further. You can join the military at age 17 with parental permission!

How is it possible to trust a person to be responsible enough to handle weapons and kill other people but not good enough to play 1/2c cash games online?

Hell my cousin was allowed to handle a weapon to hunt when he was like 12 I think (they live on a farm in Illinois). Making a mistake there is WAY more drastic than a mistake in poker. One slip and you could kill yourself, at least the worst thing in poker that can happen is you go broke. I guess you COULD commit suicide from the depression, but that's not an automatic thing.

 

[KyleJRM]

Some of you seem to feel that children are just little versions of adults. They aren't. Minors, even older teenagers, do not have the same brains as adults, physically or mentally. They are still developing and highly prone to poor judgment and developing addictive behavior. The rush of gambling is not good for them, plain and simple.

Anecdotal evidence of exceptions, which I'm sure there are, do not disprove the trend.

 

[zachvac]

Some of you seem to feel that children are just little versions of adults. They aren't. Minors, even older teenagers, do not have the same brains as adults, physically or mentally. They are still developing and highly prone to poor judgment and developing addictive behavior. The rush of gambling is not good for them, plain and simple.

Anecdotal evidence of exceptions, which I'm sure there are, do not disprove the trend.

Where's the line? You're telling me there's a magical change at 18 where they suddenly have the wisdom to make good decisions?

I just don't like this logic, the government banning something because it is "not good for them". Heard of the obesity problem in America? Kids are doing all kinds of things that aren't good for them, and parents are letting them. It's not the role of the government to stop people from doing something that's not good for them. What are parents for?

Laws should not be based on trends. Trends say that young blacks commit more crimes per capita than the average American. Let's let the police arbitrarily search young blacks without a warrant. Never mind the anecdotal evidence of exceptions, a trend is a trend.
[/sarcasm]

 

[jaketrevvor]

Some of you seem to feel that children are just little versions of adults. They aren't. Minors, even older teenagers, do not have the same brains as adults, physically or mentally. They are still developing and highly prone to poor judgment and developing addictive behavior. The rush of gambling is not good for them, plain and simple.

Anecdotal evidence of exceptions, which I'm sure there are, do not disprove the trend.

Where's the line? You're telling me there's a magical change at 18 where they suddenly have the wisdom to make good decisions?

I just don't like this logic ...

The trouble is that there is obviously not a set age where people become more responsible, it differs with each person and this makes the government applying age limits on things like online poker and also driving, drinking etc. a very imprecise and often far too rigid system. Here in England there is a big teenage binge drinking/drugs problem, and there is a lot of scientific research going on studying addiction and how some people are more prone to it than others, and there are even suggestions of "addiction genes". I predict that fairly soon there will be some big developments in this field but in any case I think it is too much of a generalisation to say that poker or indeed the gambling urge is more damaging to minors than to many adults - there is just not enough information or statistics available for this claim to be made.

I definately think that the idea zach put forward that learning these lessons early may be actually more beneficial than in later life where there is a potential to do more financial damage is a valid one - but I 'm sure there is variance between different people, which I guess sides with zach's idea of making the parents more responsible than the government.

 

[TrentsMomm]

Hell my cousin was allowed to handle a weapon to hunt when he was like 12 I think (they live on a farm in Illinois). Making a mistake there is WAY more drastic than a mistake in poker. One slip and you could kill yourself, at least the worst thing in poker that can happen is you go broke. I guess you COULD commit suicide from the depression, but that's not an automatic thing.

My son is 11 now and has been hunting ( shooting a gun, which is legal ) since he was 9. Of course, he was under parental supervision at all times. Yes, mistakes can happen, but if properly educated on handling guns makes that %age go down which it couldn't be high to begin with.

I do not believe people who are underage needs to be gambling. It's alot more hurtful to get in debt at such a early age when most of them still live with their parents. They haven't even had a chance to get out on their own and learn how to manage money yet!

 

[zachvac]

My son is 11 now and has been hunting ( shooting a gun, which is legal ) since he was 9. Of course, he was under parental supervision at all times. Yes, mistakes can happen, but if properly educated on handling guns makes that %age go down which it couldn't be high to begin with.

I do not believe people who are underage needs to be gambling. It's alot more hurtful to get in debt at such a early age when most of them still live with their parents. They haven't even had a chance to get out on their own and learn how to manage money yet!

Wow, I've said this before, how about the parent teaches their kid about money management and gambling as you have about hunting? This logic is horrible, "they don't need to" is not a logical argument. You don't need to be allowed to eat chocolate, why shouldn't the government ban chocolate?
Another point I've also made, a minor cannot go into debt. I've yet to meet a bank who will offer a loan to a minor. A minor gambling can only harm themselves as much as anyone else without money management who buys things because they can.

So just to make the laws in this country clear:

A 9-year old kid is allowed to hunt with a gun. He could easily intentionally or unintentionally turn around and kill you, other people, or himself. You're allowed to go into the military, where the mental damage is usually high (I'm sure you've seen the suicide rates of Vietnam vets), your goal is to kill people, and you have a chance of being killed, at 17. You can smoke a cigarette, which has been proved to cause cancer and reduce life spans by decades, killing some people in their 40s and 50s, at 18.

On the other hand, you can't (legally) drink alcohol, something adults regularly do at parties and special occasions, with no proven long-term effects if done responsibly, until age 21. You can do something that has been proven to kill at 18 but can't do something that is advertised and done frequently by adults until 21.

You can blow money on an HDTV, an arcade, an amusement park, manage money poorly, end up not being able to afford college, buy a new car you can't really afford, etc. as soon as you're old enough to have cash. You can't play a game where you have the potential to do all that is listed above, but also have a chance to play responsibly, maybe you're paying for entertainment, maybe you're good enough to profit, until you're 18.

Laws in this country are fu**ed up.

 

[Gunns23]

if people don't like snitches then the people doing wrong should keep thier mouth shut, because all it takes is 1 to hear, and then ....BAM....its out, good job i would ve did the same dam thing, snitch or no snitch, talk shit and get dealt with


HAHA

 

[TrentsMomm]

Wow, I've said this before, how about the parent teaches their kid about money management and gambling as you have about hunting? This logic is horrible, "they don't need to" is not a logical argument. You don't need to be allowed to eat chocolate, why shouldn't the government ban chocolate?


Another point I've also made, a minor cannot go into debt. I've yet to meet a bank who will offer a loan to a minor. A minor gambling can only harm themselves as much as anyone else without money management who buys things because they can.

I am teaching my son money management. I pay him weekly what I make and he has his own (play) check register book which he "pays" our bills with. But, when he gets old enough to gamble, I think I have already did my job (I hope). I know money management in gambling is a little different but at least he will have the background not to gamble away what money he cannot afford to lose.

I really don't know what the age limit should be on gambling but this is my theory. If you work and pay taxes you should be able to use the money however you would like (although 16 is to young for gambling.) It is your money and no one should tell you how to spend it. That's where good money management (early in life) comes in very handy.

BTW, Trent has had credit card offers through the mail (once or twice) but I'm sure they wouldn't go through with it. Maybe if he gets another I'll see if they will.

 

[wsorbust]

You're allowed to go into the military, where the mental damage is usually high (I'm sure you've seen the suicide rates of Vietnam vets), your goal is to kill people,

Really? Hmmm......The Army's new slogan.

 

[didimaketherightplay]

if it turns out he was underage, i hope i get some money for it! or atleast a ticket to a tourney.

 

[zachvac]

I am teaching my son money management. I pay him weekly what I make and he has his own (play) check register book which he "pays" our bills with. But, when he gets old enough to gamble, I think I have already did my job (I hope). I know money management in gambling is a little different but at least he will have the background not to gamble away what money he cannot afford to lose.

I really don't know what the age limit should be on gambling but this is my theory. If you work and pay taxes you should be able to use the money however you would like (although 16 is to young for gambling.) It is your money and no one should tell you how to spend it. That's where good money management (early in life) comes in very handy.

BTW, Trent has had credit card offers through the mail (once or twice) but I'm sure they wouldn't go through with it. Maybe if he gets another I'll see if they will.

haha yeah I got those credit card offers as well, pretty sure someone younger than 18 would get denied. The height of the irony was that despite all the offered credit cards I got denied on my first application after turning 18 because of lack of credit history. But I got one through a student program and don't carry a balance on it ever. That's probably actually one of the best money management lessons. If you can't afford something, don't just buy it with a credit card and pay the minimum balance. The month I bought college books the credit card bill was $400+. The minimum balance? $10. Pretty sure interest alone by the next month would have been close to another $10.

What exactly do you mean by pay taxes? I had a job when I was 16 and had money witheld for social security, but I didn't make enough to pay income tax on it. Should I have by your standards been allowed to gamble? Again, I think this is a case by case basis, and who is a better judge than the parents? If you don't think your child is ready to gamble at age 16, whether he likes it or not, you are in charge of him until he turns 18. If on the other hand a 14-year old really enjoys playing the game and wants to spend his weekly allowance on a low-stakes (1c/2c or something like that) poker with his friends and his parents think he's ready for it, he can do that. I think too many decisions that should be that of the parents are being made by the government these days.

 

[jaketrevvor]

BTW, Trent has had credit card offers through the mail (once or twice) but I'm sure they wouldn't go through with it. Maybe if he gets another I'll see if they will.

I've actually had one of these through my teens which acted as a completely regular visa - I'm sure I could have signed up on a poker site with it in fact. But I guess it comes back to parental judgement of the responsibility of the child, but here is an instance where a minor (me) could have got in real financial trouble if I had got addicted, as I had inheritance from grandparents in there But yay for parental trust I guess

 

[arkadiy]

most (m

st) [SIZE=-2]KEY [/SIZE]

ADJECTIVE:
Superlative of many, much.

1. 1. Greatest in number: ..won the most votes.
   2. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: ..has the most compassion.
2. In the greatest number of instances: Most fish have fins.

Spoken like a true ex-juvenile delinquent. You broke the law, sir. Also, while breaking the law by gambling under age, you violated any gambling site's terms of service and lied on the sign up agreement by stating that you were over 18.

What happens when a kid can't manage his money like you and drains his family's finances due to addiction? Online gaming gets blamed and his family's public complaints strengthen the anti-online gaming sentiment. The online gaming industry needs to keep its hands clean now more than ever.

Those purchases you mentioned have a set price. You can't compare buying a CD or junk food to gambling with no limit on funds, which includes the stock market. It appears you really need to get a hold of the big picture. A child having to go without gambling for the first 18 years of his life is NOT the end of the world. You will find that out many years from now.

Here is the problem I have with what you are saying. You are acting like a minor would do this, but someone over 18 will not.

Just because you are over 18 does not mean you will not get addicted to gambling and lose all your money and/or life.

I do think that the law is there for a reason, because they cannot the person who is signing up by personality, etc. so they give the next best method and just put an age limit on it.

 

[KingNothing4]

ya bastard deserved it for running his mouth and being a dick ass mofo haha, i would have reported him if i had thought about it.

 

[zachvac]

I've actually had one of these through my teens which acted as a completely regular visa - I'm sure I could have signed up on a poker site with it in fact. But I guess it comes back to parental judgement of the responsibility of the child, but here is an instance where a minor (me) could have got in real financial trouble if I had got addicted, as I had inheritance from grandparents in there But yay for parental trust I guess

This seriously worked? I'm sure in the terms somewhere it said that although you were already pre-approved you still had to be 18, and I assume also that you put your valid DOB there. Did they seriously give you the card despite you giving your DOB as less than 18 years ago?

Reminds me of the guy who took out life insurance for his goldfish, they accepted it despite the height of 3" and the weight of less than a pound. Not sure if that story's actually true though, and if it is what ended up happening.

 

[TrentsMomm]

I got one through a student program and don't carry a balance on it ever. That's probably actually one of the best money management lessons. If you can't afford something, don't just buy it with a credit card and pay the minimum balance.


What exactly do you mean by pay taxes? I had a job when I was 16 and had money witheld for social security, but I didn't make enough to pay income tax on it. Should I have by your standards been allowed to gamble?
Again, I think this is a case by case basis, and who is a better judge than the parents? If you don't think your child is ready to gamble at age 16, whether he likes it or not, you are in charge of him until he turns 18. If on the other hand a 14-year old really enjoys playing the game and wants to spend his weekly allowance on a low-stakes (1c/2c or something like that) poker with his friends and his parents think he's ready for it, he can do that. I think too many decisions that should be that of the parents are being made by the government these days.

As for you getting a credit card and paying off the balance when you get the bill (like I do) that is GREAT! I had to teach my "hubby" that when we got married. I guess you can say I paid for all of our dates and even my ring when I paid off his credit cards. Needless to say I cut them all up. Well, all but one. You need at least one.

If you work and pay any kind of taxes you should be able to spend it how you would like. Should you have been able to gamble by my standards? No, not if it's against the law. However, like I said before. I don't know really what age they should set as the limit. All people are different so I can't say.

You seem to have been taught well about money management. Yes, your parents are a better judge than the government but not all parents are like yours so they have to step in and do something.

 

[jaketrevvor]

This seriously worked? I'm sure in the terms somewhere it said that although you were already pre-approved you still had to be 18, and I assume also that you put your valid DOB there. Did they seriously give you the card despite you giving your DOB as less than 18 years ago?

Reminds me of the guy who took out life insurance for his goldfish, they accepted it despite the height of 3" and the weight of less than a pound. Not sure if that story's actually true though, and if it is what ended up happening.

I don't know about in Yankland, but here in Britain most banks have perfectly legal debit cards for minors that can be used in atms, in shops, restaurants and to shop online - perfectly functional and perfectly legal = pefectly awesome

 

[zachvac]

I don't know about in Yankland, but here in Britain most banks have perfectly legal debit cards for minors that can be used in atms, in shops, restaurants and to shop online - perfectly functional and perfectly legal = pefectly awesome

Debit != Credit

Debit card: you're paying right then and there, you just don't carry the cash, it's basically a convenient checkbook

Credit card: You're spending money you don't have to have right now, but agree to pay it at the end of the month. The credit card company won't force you to pay it off immediately, but they're going to charge you enormous amounts of interest if you don't.



So with a debit card you cannot go into debt. Credit cards you can. That's the major difference.

 

[jaketrevvor]

Ok, Ok enough with the condescing tone I get it - I'm a spazz. Gee-whizz! I know the difference between a credit and debit card just a simple me not concentrating moment and letting my fingers type, somewhat remiscent of a monkey. But with a lot of savings on a debit card like I had I could have still got into a lot of trouble was my point, which I realise is slightly less valid than you thought

 

[Stick66]

Here is the problem I have with what you are saying. You are acting like a minor would do this, but someone over 18 will not.

I never said that. Sorry you got that impression. I know there are plenty of adults who can't manage money. All I'm saying is that parents are responsible for what their kids do until they are 18. Period. Even something as small as buying a candy bar. After they turn 18, they can cook their own goose. Heck, in my area, they arrest parents if their kids skip school too much. Also around here, 16-17 year olds can't drive a car by themselves after 10 pm. That's all because there has been a few too many people who have messed it up for everybody else. That's just the way it goes.

I praise kids like Zachvac who have learned to correctly manage money. But most kids can't and the ones who can still have parents who would be responsible for the kid's actions if something went wrong.

 

[Cheetah]

This debate is evolving into "control vs no-control".

I agree with most what zachvac said. Just because someone is underage, that doesn't mean that we should treat them like stupid morons. When I was 16, I had 30-year old friends and was discussing philosophy with them.

I think we should also distinguish between prohibited activities that can cause harm to kids or others, and activities that are much less damaging.

Just because hunting for children is legal in the US doesn't make it something that is safe or good. I would much rather have children pressing mouse buttons online than rifle triggers.

To extend this analogy, guns are legal in the US and the result is 20,000 murders per year. No other industrialized country comes anywhere near that, even after normalizing for the popullation. So, just because something is legal, that doesn't mean it is good and vice versa.

I think that people should be as free as possible and laws should be in place when there is a genuine potential damage to society. People can use knives to kill themselves, and we don't ban them. Knives are harder to use against someone else.

Yet anywhere we ban drunk driving correctly because the potential damage to society is so high.

Playing poker online doesn't hurt anyone, not even the underage player. As zachvac pointed out, it can be even beneficial. I think these are the important issues to consider, not the technicality of being 18 years old or 17, 11 months, 30 days and 23 hours.

I hope I haven't inadvertently spilled some more fuel in the fire.

 

[jaketrevvor]

Some good points Cheetah, but I unfortunately find myself incontrollably lmaoing at:

hunting for children is legal in the US

:rofl:

 

[TrentsMomm]

Just because hunting for children is legal in the US doesn't make it something that is safe or good. I would much rather have children pressing mouse buttons online than rifle triggers.

I hope I haven't inadvertently spilled some more fuel in the fire.

I would put Trent in tree with a gun before I would put him online gambling with my money.

Sorry, it was the first thing I thought of and it sounded funny so had to write it.

In my defense, Trent has been taught how to safely handle a gun. As far as it being a safe or a good thing, that's your opinion and I respect that.

THE END..........of me defending myself for my son going hunting, with a gun, with parental supervision!

 

[zachvac]

I would put Trent in tree with a gun before I would put him online gambling with my money.

Sorry, it was the first thing I thought of and it sounded funny so had to write it.

In my defense, Trent has been taught how to safely handle a gun. As far as it being a safe or a good thing, that's your opinion and I respect that.

THE END..........of me defending myself for my son going hunting, with a gun, with parental supervision!

I don't think anyone is saying it's a bad thing that you let your son handle a gun with training and supervision. It's the hypocrisy that people are pointing out, not with you but with our laws.

I think we've talked this issue to death, bottom line is:

If you're going to break the law, whether you believe it to be a good or bad law, don't be a jerk to someone and admit that you are breaking said law in a place where the people enforcing that law have access to the logs. Don't walk into a police station talking about the marijuana you smoked the other night, and don't go on a poker site and brag about how you're currently gambling underage. It's just stupid.

 

[Cheetah]

Some good points Cheetah, but I unfortunately find myself incontrollably lmaoing at:


:rofl:

hunting for children is legal in the US

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I hope it is only seasonal.