HU--playing vs the shoving short stack

F

feitr

Legend
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Total posts
1,570
Ok so here is my problem...i really struggle in a HU match once i am at a 2:1 advantage (or more) and the short stack starts to shove everything. Smart players realise that once they are down a certain # of chips they no longer have a chance of outplaying you post flop so basically everything becomes a shove. Now it is all fine and dandy to say that you should wait for decent cards before calling, but in the meantime you are giving away blinds and letting them catch up...to the point that if you now decide to call an all in you are in SERIOUS trouble if you lose.

So just wondering what the strats ppl use vs short stack shovers. I normally raise ATC (apart from total total crap which i fold) preflop, but once i get a nice advantage and they start shoving i stop raising because you can't be giving them free extra chips. If i have them <600 or so, i normally put them all in for alot of the hands when i am on the button, and in the BB fold unless i get a decent hand. And i normally end up having to fold crap from the button or im just handing them half the blind.

But all too often i end up calling with a goodish hand like K8 and they have like QT and end up hitting a card (it's not much more than a coin flip). And all of a sudden the 800 short stack has the chip advantage.

Yesterday i had a game where in all seriousness i got this guy to <700 chips 4 times. Each time we were all in he won, even tho i had an overcard each time and in 2 of the 4 times i had 2 overcards (no pps). Then finally the blinds are way up and i have to shove with QT and he has AK and wins his 5th all in in a row. Now sure that is an extreme situation, but i often feel like WTF CAN I DO when i constantly outplay a person to get over a 2:1 chip advantage and in one all in it is all erased (and often worsened).

Any tips would be much appreciated.

Just thought of something...would non-turbo be better? At least then you have alot more time to wait for hands as there is no problem letting him go all in to take 30 in chips as opposed to 90 etc.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Heads up with high blinds has a lot more to do with luck than with skills. In turbos, blinds are usually so high when it goes down to two players that the correct strategy from SB is to shove any two cards.

The way I handle it is opponent dependent. If villain does not seem to know that he should shove ATC from SB, then I play tight in BB and shove ATC myself to grind him down. If villain shoves his SB as he should, then so do I, and I call from BB as soon as I have a reasonable edge vs. ATC and pray that luck comes my way.

There is a lot more skill involved in non-turbos. When I play 9 handed non-turbo SNGs, I win 2 heads-up out of 3, which contributes a lot to my ROI. In turbos I win about 1 out of 2, which means the ROI has to come from a good enough ITM.
 
Mrlova

Mrlova

Rock Star
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Total posts
127
Against someone moving all in every hand, or recklessly like this, you have to call with any Ace, any pocket pair, and usually any King. All you can do is invest ahead. If you invest ahead you just have to hope your opponent doesn't outdraw you.

Good luck on the felt
 
F

feitr

Legend
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Total posts
1,570
belgo i don't mean full handed SnGs...just HU sngs.

Like last sng i play...he shoves i call with KQ...he has J9 and hits a straight. Next hand i have him domianted and he hits his one live card....
 
F

feitr

Legend
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Total posts
1,570
this is so ridiculous...i have NEVER EVER EVER EVER run this bad in my life. THe last HU game i played i hit TP 2 times and this guy calls of his ENTIRE F'ING STACK to hit a gutshot straight on the river the first time then RUNNER RUNNER TO HIT F'ING 2 PAIR. I can't even beat calling station donks running like this...
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
belgo i don't mean full handed SnGs...just HU sngs.

Like last sng i play...he shoves i call with KQ...he has J9 and hits a straight. Next hand i have him domianted and he hits his one live card....

HU sngs? never played those at any decent stake. But i guess the variance must be brutal.

Anyway, when I feel i'm out of luck in the turbos, i move back to the non turbos and it does pump my confidence back up. I have a somewhat higher ROI in non turbos, but mostly I have a lot smaller variance there, and that's crucial to recover from bad karma (i mean tilt).
 
F

feitr

Legend
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Total posts
1,570
Ok this is honestly becoming ridiculous. Just finished a sng, absolutely outplayed the guy the entire time. Once he gets to 800 he shoves everything. I can't call and eventually he gets back close to even. So i have to start shoving from sb and he shows up with AT vs my K9 and gg game over nothing i can do. So absolutely retarded and i am completely sick of it.

Should i literally call with ATC at all once they are >1000? Seems better than throwing away the blinds until it is even money. I am sick of losing to ppl i EASILY EASILY outplay postflop. Certainly not trying to say that i am a great poker player but it seems to me that ppl realise they aren't going to win once they are down to >1000 and hvae been outplayed that entire time so they correctly start to shove everything. There has got to be some rule of thumb or something because i am very nearly ready to stop HU altogether because of this shit.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Ok this is honestly becoming ridiculous. Just finished a sng, absolutely outplayed the guy the entire time. Once he gets to 800 he shoves everything. I can't call and eventually he gets back close to even. So i have to start shoving from sb and he shows up with AT vs my K9 and gg game over nothing i can do. So absolutely retarded and i am completely sick of it.

If he starts shoving everything, you have to do the same from sb while you still have your strong lead instead of waiting to be close to even. That buys you time to pick a spot where you choose to call his shove.

If you want to call his shove from BB when you are ahead of ATC, that means any pair, any A, any K, Q5+, J8+, T9.

If you want to wait until you are 60% farorite or more against ATC, then it's A7s+, A9o+, KJo+, K9s+, QJs, 44+. But's that's less than 15% of your cards, and it means you may have to wait a bit too long before you get one of those.

I'm pretty sure it must be possible to determine what is the optimal calling range here depending on stack sizes and on the opponent's calling range, but that's a bit beyond my current game theory knowledge.
 
ythelongface

ythelongface

Legend
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Total posts
2,647
Awards
1
in a situation where im hu and my short stack opponent is shovin a lot, i will play anything thats not completely horrible, 97, 86, 54, preferably suited. you cant wait and hope to get a big hand. when your first to act, you should be the agressor, make a bet thats about 25% of his stack. put the decision back on him.
 
S

switch0723

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Total posts
8,430
if they are shoving every single hand from sb (at least 6 in a row imo) then you can class they are pushing ATC. With a 2:1 chip advantage, at this point be willing to call with any hand better than q,7 (above avarage). Use your chip advantage to take a shot at winning and still be in a position to win the HU if you lose.

That is the best option over being blinded down
 
Top