How do you fold this?

flint

flint

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Have you ever felt really good cause you played a tournament really well even though you didn't cash. I am so hyped up cause I played the best game I have ever played and even got lucky at times in the t6poker 250k.

I did get unlucky with one guy hitting a runner runner flush with aces to outdraw my set, but I was able to outplay him and get my stack back in about 10 mins.

My question concerns this hand, a little before the bubble:

Hand #30619262, Hold'em, 6 players
Table: Tournament 100990 33 (TRN)
sami start position: 873500
urapeen start position: 1866000
StevoL start position: 1234000
gulan start position: 872500
FI Flint start position: 784000
T6Andreas start position: 1183500
hand start time: 5/11/2008 11:29 PM
FI Flint posts ante (20)
T6Andreas posts ante (20)
sami posts ante (20)
urapeen posts ante (20)
StevoL posts ante (20)
gulan posts ante (20)
T6Andreas posts small blind (200)
sami posts big blind (400)
FI Flint is dealt down [Qh Qd]
urapeen raises to (1000)
StevoL folds
gulan folds
FI Flint raises to (3000)
T6Andreas folds
sami folds
urapeen raises to (9720)
FI Flint calls (7820) and is all-in
urapeen is refunded (1900)
urapeen shows [Ac Ad]
FI Flint shows [Qh Qd]
flop: [Kc 7s Ah]
turn: [2d]
river: [7h]
urapeen shows [Ac Ad]
FI Flint shows [Qh Qd]
sami says: "ouch"
urapeen wins (16360)
sami end position: 831500
urapeen end position: 2718000
StevoL end position: 1232000
gulan end position: 870500
FI Flint end position: 0


The thing is that I actually put him on that hand, but was unable to fold. Do any of you know how I can train myself to trust my reads more? The whole tournament my reads had been really good and this is really something that can, if trained, make me a world class player.
 
odinscott

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There are 2 over cards on the board. Easy fold imo.
 
flint

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I just wanna add that the bet by villain was a bit smaller than in a previous situation that was otherwise exactly like this, but he folded instead of stuffing.

Also the only hand that I played bad was aginst T6Andreas where I bet 3/4 from out of position with bottom pair after raising pre flop. This was because he was ultra-agressive and I had somewhat of a tight image. This might have in the end cost me from getting to the money as I had about 12k at that time and lost almost half of my stack.
 
Dwilius

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his chips were aleady in though odin. The question is can you fold big hand when you know you're beat. All i can say is being pair under pair is about as bad as it gets so if thats where you think you are...remind yourself of the odds.
 
cool32steve

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OH didnt even look. Well then no, you cant fold that. :p

I believe that the question is how can he fold if he put him on Aces? In other words, how do you train yourself to trust your reads... Hmmm, I guess you have to call a few times to prove to yourself that your reads are good. Then be disciplined enough to drop your hand when you know you are beat.
 
odinscott

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I believe that the question is how can he fold if he put him on Aces? In other words, how do you train yourself to trust your reads... Hmmm, I guess you have to call a few times to prove to yourself that your reads are good. Then be disciplined enough to drop your hand when you know you are beat.

Well KK and QQ against AA is hard to ever know. Looking back (actually taking the time to look at the hand this time), he did get reraised, but even knowing that I think that I call. This is just a cooler, unless villian is super tight, then you rethink I guess.
 
zachvac

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You have <20 BB's, you can't fold QQ here ever. Just a cooler.
 
flint

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You have <20 BB's, you can't fold QQ here ever. Just a cooler.

I do agree with you on some level, but I think I have to learn to fold here if I want to become a expert player.

I was thinking about this and this is very marginal call cause I had a moderate hunch on him having aces. I guess I need to take more steps to strengthen my reads.

But don't worry, I'll take it down next time. :)
 
zachvac

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I do agree with you on some level, but I think I have to learn to fold here if I want to become a expert player.

I was thinking about this and this is very marginal call cause I had a moderate hunch on him having aces. I guess I need to take more steps to strengthen my reads.

But don't worry, I'll take it down this week. :)

I disagree, it has less to do with how much of an expert you are and a lot more to do with how much of an expert the players you're playing against are not. The OP didn't include a buy-in, but unless the buy-in was several hundred dollars you'll get so many hands here, from 88 to AT to sometimes even straight crap like 59o. <20 BB's deep, and after the action you're getting great odds. Unless you're playing really high limits, there's really no way to get a "read" on if they have AA or A2 here, because there are players who will play both like the nuts. A read only helps with what your opponent thinks. You can read the opponent as strong but to him strong could be A3o. I still say even if you're a pro you call in this situation unless there are a ton of reads and history that makes you almost positive you're beat. Even if he has AA/KK two thirds of the time it's not a bad play simply because of the odds you're getting.
 
flint

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I disagree, it has less to do with how much of an expert you are and a lot more to do with how much of an expert the players you're playing against are not. The OP didn't include a buy-in, but unless the buy-in was several hundred dollars you'll get so many hands here, from 88 to AT to sometimes even straight crap like 59o. <20 BB's deep, and after the action you're getting great odds. Unless you're playing really high limits, there's really no way to get a "read" on if they have AA or A2 here, because there are players who will play both like the nuts. A read only helps with what your opponent thinks. You can read the opponent as strong but to him strong could be A3o. I still say even if you're a pro you call in this situation unless there are a ton of reads and history that makes you almost positive you're beat. Even if he has AA/KK two thirds of the time it's not a bad play simply because of the odds you're getting.

The tourney was a €165 buy-in and at this point I was sitting with good players. This guy had been pretty tight and I had come over the top of him once before.

I do understand why this would be a easy hand to call with at the lower limits, but here I am not too sure if it is the hand I want to be calling with. I can only think of three hands that he would be raising less here: AA,KK and AK (very unlikely, but possible are QQ, AQ and JJ)
 
PokerHack

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How to fold....

Someone showin that strong, he's not going away....maybe a call til the flop, then you could have divorced those QQ's.
Hack
 
pokerjdud

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how to fold it?? there should be a fold button that pops up when its your turn ;) lol
 
nevadanick

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Someone showin that strong, he's not going away....maybe a call til the flop, then you could have divorced those QQ's.
Hack

I agree. QQ is a strong hand, but far from 'the nuts'. Call to the flop, then spank those ladies.

Keep recommending those 'you gotta call this' posts coming. The reload/rebuy button is right next to 'fold' button and just to the right of that is the 'show registering' lobby button.

So, what were the 'odds' here? 65/35 ... ? Based on the 'long run' advice, the long run is based on 65/35 over at least a million hands. All you have to do is factor for variance and survive those first 350,000 losing hands.
 
adventurebound

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Some guys aren't reading the HH before posting., It was an all in Preflop call, no indication of a rebuy possible in this tourny.



I have to agree with Zach's posts on this one, both explained well. It is next to impossible to be certain he's on AA and at you were more than likely to either be in a dominating pos. or a coin flip at worst. The only way to learn discipline of mucking great hole cards is with time and practice imho. If you decide to force yourself into it earlier your going to end up gun shy to any raise, an easy target to players that notice the weekness and your game will fall off dramatically.

Best of luck to ya!
 
Last edited:
zachvac

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Someone showin that strong, he's not going away....maybe a call til the flop, then you could have divorced those QQ's.
Hack

If you call to see the flop and then fold UI (which happens the heavy majority of the time, since you have exactly 2 outs) this is a huge mistake. We're shortstacked, we have the 3rd best hand in poker, scared of exactly 2 hands, and we're going to play QQ for set value??????? :confused:
 
Melkor

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I agree. QQ is a strong hand, but far from 'the nuts'. Call to the flop, then spank those ladies.

Call the original first raise with QQ? That is pretty bad. QQ is a 3-bet like 99.9% of the time here. The idea of a tourny is to accumulate chips and this hand we push to the max and want to see an all-in. As for not being 'the nuts', it is the third best hand you can have pf, what more you wanting?

And even though it is easy to get off QQ on a KAx board what if 258r had come out? You still 'spanking those ladies'. Absolutely not.

The hand was played completely standard and is just unlucky. Zachvac's post is spot on with the 'expert player' thing.
 
7

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I can't see myself folding this. I'd call allin.

Maybe I misread but I'm not following the starting stacks in the HH though..

FI Flint start position: 784000
784000 chips?
 
zachvac

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well if you read the betting, 7820 is the all-in, plus a 20 ante, so apparently that is off by a factor of 100.
 
7

7letters

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and the call of 600 plus the 2400 re-raise?

Anyway, no worries. I call anyway.:)
 
nevadanick

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Call the original first raise with QQ? That is pretty bad. QQ is a 3-bet like 99.9% of the time here. The idea of a tourny is to accumulate chips and this hand we push to the max and want to see an all-in. As for not being 'the nuts', it is the third best hand you can have pf, what more you wanting?

And even though it is easy to get off QQ on a KAx board what if 258r had come out? You still 'spanking those ladies'. Absolutely not.

The hand was played completely standard and is just unlucky. Zachvac's post is spot on with the 'expert player' thing.

IMO, there are TWO objectives in a tourney. Accumulate chips AND stay alive. You cannot win anything with no chips and no chair. Third best starting hand?? Yep - pf ONLY. I just cannot wrap my mind around not wanting to see cards to make intelligent poker decisions.

In this case you have 2 outs, that's it. You are beat by AA, KK or a coin flip (IMO) facing any Ax or Kx, not to mention what a flop might bring. OP said he had the reads. The writing was on the wall, and he didn't want to read.

Since several agreed with Zach, re-read his post. He put the caveat aboard that his post was UNLESS it was several hundred buy-in. In fact, it was 165euro. OP added that players were good (so he had a history read) and villain had been playing tight. I can't say the preflop raise would have made me fold, but I think I would have at least simply called. SHOW ME CARDS, not Lady Luck's backside as I exit the building.

If just playing the odds were a formula for success, why can't you just go to the horsetrack and bet the favorite to win every race, and come away a winner? Good pony players want to see the form AND the horse. They don't run to the window and plop their cash, sight unseen, on every favorite. (at least none that I know)

I fully understand that I am in a minority going against the 'insta-calls' and 'gotta push' advisories. The only thing that I have to back up what I believe is that I play 99% online on Stars and Tilt and have small BR's on each site - and I have never deposited one thin dime anywhere online. I also play live smaller MTT's when I can and started playing live in '69.

It's been said over and over (by forum members, here and elsewhere) that playing the way I do will not make me a winning poker player. Since my live wins have always paid for my tourney losses and I have BR's generated by FR's (and some stud ring games from time to time), am I a losing player? Please.... let me lose this way ... :cool:

Just like the old saying that 'old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill', I also subscribe to 'patience and discipline will overcome youth and aggression' when it comes to poker. Play on ... insta-call = insta-out. Reload, rebuy, re-deposit ... it's only money ... :D

My point, relating to the OP, trust what you know. IMO, there are better situations to put all your chips in the middle. Cooler-schmooler, you ran out into the freeway traffic blindfolded. See cards, my friend, see cards.
 
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