FREEROLLS ARE A WASTE OF TIME FOR GOOD PLAYERS

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whojgov32

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I think I gotta quit playin these freerolls because I always lose to horrible players because of crazy draws, the board, and bad beats... I waste 2 hrs... 30 spots away from the money... and then got nothin to show for it. Gettin really old... but of course I will keep playing... get pissed off... whine on railbirds to all of you guys... and the cycle continues because I am addicted to poker. Ya know if you don't wanna play poker the way it was meant to be played... leave and don't disrespect the game. It aint just railbird freerolls either. Hell its poker in general. Bad beats. You always ATLEAST have one REALLY BAD ONE in a big tourney and it screws ya. Just ventin to all you guys... good luck cuz if it wasnt for bad luck... I wouldnt have any... PEACE
 
Chiefer

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what is this bad beat you speak of. i've never had one. i've won every hand i've ever played. then again my last name is pokerstars.
 
flint

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Freerolls do seem to be a waste of time, it can be a huge waste of time if you got a fairly large BR and you get eliminated just in the money and eventually get something like 1 dollar.

However, you have to remember that when you risk nothing you get very little unless you finish in the top few.

Also the experience is good, but I would rather play $6 tourneys, or something that I can win a nice amount of money even if I finish just outside the top 10.
 
lilybo

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How is poker meant to be played? enlighten me please. u said railbirds twice in your post you do realize u r at cc
 
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lottomode777

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Don't take Freerolls seriously like you would a regular 5$ buy in or higher. Do what I do, either build up a nice large stack in the first 20 minutes or get knocked out.
 
pigpen02

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Depends, too, on why you play. If the game is prime, freerolls are good because you get a little bonus for your time if you finish ITM. Beats play money tournaments. I keep winning freeroll satellites and some day I am going to place in the final.

If money is your prime goal, freerolls are not the answer.
 
pigpen02

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How is poker meant to be played? enlighten me please. u said railbirds twice in your post you do realize u r at cc

If you want to play freerolls, CC is not the only place. Just the best place. I am a member of Railbirds, too, (as are a number of CC people) but have not played in one of theirs in weeks because I have my schedule full with CC events and more lucrative ring games.
 
calibanboy

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Good place to learn though
 
19RK64

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I play a lot of real poker\mainly tourneys,some rake games,but I do like freerolls and their are a lot of badbeats in both believe me!!Players just love to gamble against the odds,or just have a gut feeling ,whatever..
Pro.player Roy Rounder and the inventer of the shark,had this to say about bad beat online-v-live.I like it and thought I'd share it.
richard,

There are two types of bad beats:

BAD BEAT #1...

When you catch a monster hand but lose to a BIGGER monster
hand.
For example, let's say you're holding pocket Aces and the flop hits A-6-6. That means you've got a full house.
Your opponent goes ALL-IN... and you call. You think your Aces are the best hand but they're NOT, because your opponent has pocket sixes, which gives him the four-of-a-kind.

BAD BEAT #2...

When YOU have the best hand and your opponent has the WORST
hand but your opponent GETS LUCKY and wins the pot.
For example, let's say you have pocket Aces and go all-in. Your opponent calls with pocket three's.

The flop hits 2-4-5 and the turn card is a 6, giving your opponent the STRAIGHT and causing you to lose the hand.
Now that's a bad beat.
And let's face it, the SECOND type of bad beat-- the one where your opponent gets totally LUCKY and outdraws you-- is the kind of beat that just plain SUCKS. And pisses you off.

In fact, the second type of bad beat is the kind you REMEMBER the most too. When someone says, "Hey man, how did your card game go?", the first thing that will come out of your mouth will be the story of that bad beat.

Am I right?

Now here's what's interesting...
MORE BAD BEATS HAPPEN IN online poker THAN IN "REGULAR" LIVE
POKER.
Literally, you'll see more bad beats happen in an online poker game than you'll see at a local cash game or in a casino.

If you play both online and offline poker, I'm sure you
agree with this statement.

So what's going on here? Why would it be this way?

There are two popular "theories"...

1. Online poker is rigged.

2. There are more hands per hour, therefore it's an ILLUSION
that there are more bad beats.

My opinion is that BOTH of these theories are WRONG.

Here's why:

First off, I genuinely believe online poker is NOT rigged. I mean, c'mon... Do you REALLY think these multi-billion dollar casinos would need to RIG hands?

They make their money from tournament entry fees and rakes... and trust me, they're making plenty.
OK, so what about the second theory?

Well, I do agree that there are more hands per hour in online poker than offline poker. There's no disputing that.
But I don't think that's a good enough reason...
Because my belief is that there are MORE bad beats that happen per X number of hands ONLINE than for offline poker.
For instance, let's say you played 100 hands. And let's say you caught two really bad beats for every 100 hands at a casino. That's 2%.
In online poker, you're likely to catch FIVE or even TEN of those really bad beats per 100 hands. That's 5-10%.
So the fact that you're seeing MORE hands doesn't explain the HIGHER PERCENTAGE of bad beats.

Still with me?

OK, so now let me give you MY "theory" about this.

It's not really a theory. Just good old simple logic,
actually.

Here it goes:

The reason there are more bad beats in ONLINE poker is
because the very NATURE of online poker leads people to PLAY
DIFFERENTLY.

The CARDS and ODDS are the same.

It's the PLAYERS that aren't the same.

What I mean is that for online poker, a LARGE portion of players adopt the style of LOOSE-AGGRESSIVE.
Translation? Manic.
They act irrationally... play hands they shouldn't play... and bet way too aggressively for most given situations.

Why?

Because online poker isn't as "real".

The money isn't as real. I mean, heck... the casinos give you so much "free" money when you sign up, how COULD it feel real?

The cards aren't real. The chips aren't real. The table isn't real. NONE OF THAT STUFF EVEN EXISTS.
All you see when you play online poker are some silly little animations. And you hear some "clickity-click" sounds of fake chips.

That's it.

Nothing else.

Period.

And if you LOSE a game, all you have to do is make three or four mouse clicks and you're INSTANTLY playing another game.

And hell, you can PLAY ten games at once if you want!

You can literally play poker against 100 players AT THE SAME TIME!

It's a different world, my friend.Now... let's get back to the bad beats.

The FACT that players are LOOSE-AGGRESSIVE is what leads to
the SITUATIONS where bad beats happen.

Here's why:

1. Players bet their draws more or call large bets with
draws or OK hands (i.e. bottom pair).

2. More players are involved in every pot.

3. The pots are bigger, since players are more aggressive.

When these conditions COMBINE TOGETHER, it creates an
environment where there are a lot of BIG POTS and bad beats.

It's not that the cards are "rigged".

It's that the betting patterns and playing styles are DIFFERENT than what you're used to.

And when you combine that with the fact that you see more
hands per hour, it inevitably leads to seeing a lot more
"crazy" hands and bad beats than in regular poker.

OK, so now the obvious question becomes...Is there any way to PREVENT bad beats?

The answer is yes and no.

Ultimately, bad beats will occur NO MATTER WHAT if you're playing good poker. Because to win at poker, you've got to be willing to take RISKS.

And most risks have a minimum 20% chance or more of NOT working out in your favor.
With that being said, there ARE ways to prevent a LARGE PORTION of the bad beats you'll see online.

Not only can you prevent them, but you can literally turn it around and make it YOUR ULTIMATE ADVANTAGE.

The key is to "tilt the tables" in your favor and USE the fact that players are so loose and aggressive to HELP YOU
win more pots.

The way you achieve this is by adopting a SPECIAL playing style designed SPECIFICALLY for online poker...

My name for this "secret sauce" is this:

TIGHT-AGGRESSIVE SQUARED.

The concept of "tight-aggressive squared" is quite simple...

It starts with the logic that tight-aggressive is the most
effective playing style to use in poker.

Tight-aggressive means TIGHT with hand selection, AGGRESSIVE
with betting.

With online poker, there are more players in every hand.
That means you must play EVEN TIGHTER with your hand
selection.

You should ONLY play monster hands!

Period!

There's absolutely no reason to get involved with "decent"
hands because the odds are against you.

You're bound to run into players who are CHASING or who just
caught an extremely lucky flop.

When you DO get involved with a hand, you must be OVERLY
aggressive. The pot size will be bigger, so you can't lose
many hands or else you'll be out of the game in a hurry.

You must STRIKE... and you must STRIKE HARD.

You must risk ALL OF YOUR CHIPS-- frequently-- in order to
win.

Of course, it's much easier to risk all of your chips when
you have a GREAT HAND than it is otherwise.

You see, the goal is to do two things:

1. Force out all but one, maybe two players for any pot you
get involved with.

2. Have the odds so unbelievably stacked in your favor that
you win far more HUGE pots than you lose.

And when you win lots of big pots, you become chip leader
VERY QUICKLY. And that's how you take control over a poker
table.

The reason you want to force people OUT of the hand is
simple mathematics.

Let's say for instance you get pocket ACES.

Here's what three of your opponents are holding:

Player 1: K-K

Player 2: 10-9 suited

Player 3: Q-10 offsuit

Now, if you went heads-up against any of these hands
ONE-ON-ONE, your odds of winning would be about 80%. They'd
be 85% against Player 3.

BUT...

If you went up against ALL THREE of these opponents in one
single hand, your odds of winning is just 58.5%!

That's just over 50/50 with the absolute BEST starting hand
possible.

Get my point?



their was more to this letter but I just wanted to share what he had to say about BADBEATS,and I'd like to share some thing with players that are wondering if this just might be true,
Ok-I was in prison for child support,wich I pay today,But when I was in their,they took all money that was sent to me,and state pay,except for $10.00 a month,that not cover enough for smokes,not to mention soap,toothpast,coffee,stamps ect..so I housed a poker table,for a little over three years their. 8+hours a day, I raked 5% on the hand.and was able to play and suck in,some really nice pots also.and pass my time.


When cash was low,I would run credit,and tax 10% per hand,during this time of credit,I noticed players played much different,just like we see Online,and the badbeat,and and bad calls-ALL THE TIME!!NUTTIN DIFFERENT,except you watch what you said,or subject to pay for poppin of at the mouth!! lol

This game was good to me,it was a learning experince!!and I played some dirt here and their,meaning I looked out for my players,if dude was low man<in real you can see a player turn RED when in danger of being broke.. If player was plus on paper,chasin,and I felt low man could claim hand,if I was in ,I'd raise some,might of been wrong,but it worked out great,I didnt have to pay winner as much,and low man not owe as much,and I'd cut breaks,kinda like a reload bounes as we know of,and I still made what I needed..

reson being:without them I was hit!! we were a group, played every day,pretty much a LOCKED TABLE OF POKER JUNKIES

so when I got out,I bought this computer,and had a Bro. download an e-mail and load my first poker site on it and here in am today!!I haven't seen anything different really,cause credit was played by most, like a freeroll, they just tighten up the closer it got to pay day,thought I'd share that with ya,most people will never get the chance to play credit poker 8+ hours a day,for two to three day to see this..but this was real poker!.
 
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voodoobich

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i like the frrerolls it helps you learn how to deal with the donks without losing your dough
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

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looks like 19RK64 had a lot of time to write this one
 
DaFrench1

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This game was good to me,it was a learning experince!!and I played some dirt here and their,meaning I looked out for my players,if dude was low man<in real you can see a player turn RED when in danger of being broke.. If player was plus on paper,chasin,and I felt low man could claim hand,if I was in ,I'd raise some,might of been wrong,but it worked out great,I didnt have to pay winner as much,and low man not owe as much,and I'd cut breaks,kinda like a reload bounes as we know of,and I still made what I needed..


You mean you rigged it? I'm just kidding. Great post. There are indeed several factors that lead to crazy play like we see online, field size, cost, blind structure and speed, and payout structures are also very influential in the level of craziness you are likely to see and should be taken into account when considering which tournaments to buy-in to.
 
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smokinbandito12

smokinbandito12

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Full tilt freeroll: buy in= $0.00. prize pool= $100.00.
Freeroll= Good deal.
 
19RK64

19RK64

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yea I had some time woke up and couldn't sleep so,sign in a tourney and started on this
POINT BEING?
AND DaFrench1,yea you could look at it like that ,but when live, it easy to see whats going on,some time they would try 3 man team to hurt the house and came close a few time,they new,and i new also,and it was brought up a few times,and I said look you might break him ,and he wount be able to play next week,and Im trying for the badbeat of the year and so are you,so give him a chance or fold.they not much said,I was verry lucky not to run in to some serieous problems durring all the hours.It was a good game and we all became BRO's,but as in poker their were the meek
 
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19RK64

19RK64

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the BADBEATS ARE GETTING WORSE by the month it appears,but Im guilty of it also,from time to time for WHATEVER REASON,AND THEIR CAN BE MANY REASON ,but the one I hate the most is ace on the river one an only pair with no other chance to win.
 
dj11

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Boy, I got a way different outlook on this game.

I got 44, give it the ole 3x pf raise, get called. Flop comes 42x, I raise big, he calls. Turn is 2 I shove, he gets all in. river x, In my heart I KNOW i got this right? WRONG, hes got quads.

That was an absolutely delightful hand to lose. I laughed and laughed. Do I consider it a bad beat? NO. I could see the guy knew the game, and it was as much a test of wills as a test of skills.

Bad beats for the most part DO NOT EXIST! There is a technical definition for casinos to pay out a bad beat jackpot, but all the beats you take thinking they are bad beats are hands you probably beat yourself.
 
Monoxide

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I think I gotta quit playin these freerolls because I always lose to horrible players because of crazy draws, the board, and bad beats... I waste 2 hrs... 30 spots away from the money... and then got nothin to show for it. Gettin really old... but of course I will keep playing... get pissed off... whine on railbirds to all of you guys... and the cycle continues because I am addicted to poker. Ya know if you don't wanna play poker the way it was meant to be played... leave and don't disrespect the game. It aint just railbird freerolls either. Hell its poker in general. Bad beats. You always ATLEAST have one REALLY BAD ONE in a big tourney and it screws ya. Just ventin to all you guys... good luck cuz if it wasnt for bad luck... I wouldnt have any... PEACE

Uh yeah, its a freeroll...
 
flint

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I don't agree with Roy Rounder's definition of bad beats although I find that his advice is generally very useful.

If the other player has a better hand than you, then especially if he/she is a beginner you should be able to read the player pretty good. You should also trust your reads/ instincts, something that I seem to forget once in a while. I know he's got the aces, but I still push with AJ suited :confused: That is because inside me I hope I'm wrong and he's got AT or lower Ax.

The second example Roy gives, I don't consider a bad beat either. It is a 80-20 situation and that is just one of the ways that the 3s win. Get over it. I think there are only a few bad beats that I truly remember as I tell my friend about the other beats and just forget about them.

One bad beat I remember from my live games is that I played. I had a full house on the turn and the way I played it, he was only afraid of a higher flush, thinking I was going to donk all my money away. I went all-in, he calls with only two outs to complete a miracle straight flush. The rest you know already. That is a bad beat when you get your money in when the opponent has like a 5% chance of cathcing a miracle card.
 
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mwciowa

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Freerolls are because it can provide a forum for learning experience without putting up money. It is good for good players because over time, on average, you will make some money but not in every tourney. If it is about $ consistently, then of course per hour average isn't going to make it worth the time.
 
flint

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Plus you get to play against the biggest donks and eventally you will come up with ways to lower your risk. When I play a freeroll, I barely ever finish outside the money.
 
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ph_il

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I <3 freerolls. I used to not do very well in freerolls, then I changed up my strategy a bit and now I am doing a lot better than ever.

Usually during the first few levels, play is very loose. During these levels I am in a push or fold mode. I'll push with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, preflop in any position. I'll open push with AKs/o, AQs/o, 1010-88. And i'll push with any pair, Ax suited, and any of the above hands in late position when no one else has entered. However, if there are all ins before me I will not call with these hands except AA, KK, QQ, and AK.

The goal here is to double or triple up early or get busted. So, Im looking for a spot to get all my money in but I want to get it in with a decent hand and not just ATC. If I double up or better, I'll still push my big hands but I can open my hand range greatly and call big raises with hands like 10Js, Q9s, etc and hope to hit a flop. And if i dont get a chance to double up, by playing tight and folding majority of my hands...I'll still have a decent chipstack to work with.

If Im lucky, after the first few rounds, I'll be in good position with a nice chip stack and I can just play my normal game.
 
Cheetah

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Freerolls can be very frustrating. Generally, there is very little to be learned there as they are usually donk-infested. People don't understand position, hand values, and so on.

Another important factor related to bad beats is "fish schooling". Basically, when multiple people gang up and play badly, they make each other's play less bad collectively. This further decreases the edge a good player has. I think this is why many good players do better in non-freerolls than freerolls.

Philthy's strategy seems crazy, but I can see that it is a sound strategy for freerolls. In a normal tournament, it would not work since players wouldn't call an all-in with KJ.

I used to do very well in freerolls when I first started. Now, if I am applying a standard early-tight strategy, it doesn't work that well.

One strategy that has worked for me is to limp a lot when the blinds are still small. The idea is to hit something nice and get paid big, since usually freeroll-donks will go all the way to Mars with top pair(or less).

It is a variation of Philthy's strategy in that it is very loose. The risk of ruin is decreased, but you can end up with a smallish stack one hour in the tourney. Philthy's strategy seems to be more optimal with respect to time.

Overall, I think that freerolls are excellent to get some MTT experience up to a point. After that, you don't learn anything, the pay is terrible and generally not worth it. For example, a $100 freeroll with 500 players is equivalent to a 20c buy-in tourney(the equity of each player).

On the other hand, freerolls are the only way to start a bankroll without depositing. So not everything is that bad.:D

I think the key is to not take them seriously.
 
Semicolonkid

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Yeah I happen to disagree with the common notion of how luck-based freerolls are. I ALWAYS take scheduled freerolls seriously! Poker is poker...the only difference here is you need to learn to deal with a more ridiculous style of play. And in response to 19RK64's incredibly long post: You basically requoted a trillion things. In books, other people, everything. Plus, I don't think that's really on the subject. You should've made another thread.

Sorry if this came off mean sometimes I voice my opinions in a "mean" manner, but I don't mean to offend anyone.
 
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quads

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Does any of this crap ever get old ??????????????????????????
 
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ph_il

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what is this crap you speak about?
 
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