Experts! What's the legal ruling here...?

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BabyShoes

BabyShoes

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Last night in a No-limit hold 'em tourney, the following happened,and should you be able to help with a ruling, I'd appreciate a heads up as to where that rule is to be found so I can pass it on to the rest of our sceptical club:

Player UTG raised pre-flop with Ac 4c and was called by one player in the middle and by both blinds.

Flop was 2h Kd and 5s.

UTG bet half the pot and was called by the player in the middle, who had Js Jc. Both blinds folded.

Turn was a 7h, and both players checked.

River was 3d, and here comes the problem:

UTG went all-in and after a few moments opened his cards in front of himself so the other player could see them! :eek:

Clearly this borders on insanity, but that's not the issue.

As the other player had not yet called or folded, was this legal? No one could benefit from the showing, other than the opponent, obviously, so no possible advantage could be gained by UTG, who admits it was a moment of madness.

Looking down, the opponent misread the table, thought his pair of Jacks were strong and clearly called. Once he was told that UTG had a straight,
he backed away, claiming UTG should never have opened his cards, and the dealer decided to split the pot between the two players.

What do the rules state?
 
Jillychemung

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Most places the exposed cards are still in play and JJ's call would be binding.
 
robwhufc

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Hand stands, A4 hasn't folded his hand he's gone all in.

JJ guy is a superstar if he still called. How much more info did he need to fold?
 
zachvac

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Since it's head up showing the cards is perfectly legal. More often I'll see them show one card to mess with the other guy's head, but if he wants to give him free information he's allowed to do that. The call is binding and somehow the straight wins the all-in. I wish I could show straights and get called by less than top pair :).
 
C

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The hand should stand, you can't declare it dead because he's exposed the cards. The guy with JJ called so the pot goes to the guy with A4.

The guy who exposed the cards should recieve some sort of penalty AFTER the hand, probably missing an orbit of the table or something.
 
C

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The showing 1 card is a rule I think that's not really got agreement. I think it's commonly accepted though that showing both cards is not allowed.
 
zachvac

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The showing 1 card is a rule I think that's not really got agreement. I think it's commonly accepted though that showing both cards is not allowed.

umm no. Showing both cards heads up is perfectly legal. If there are more people in the hand it is illegal but in this scenario it's heads up.
 
WVHillbilly

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From Home Poker Tourney - Robert's Rules of Poker Version 11 (Tourney section):

22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.

So your dealer's ruling was wrong. A penalty in these cases is usually that a player is forced to sit out for a specified time period or number of hands while still paying the blinds/antes. Splitting the pot is NEVER the right answer. Print a copy of Robert's Rules to fall back on the next time you have a situation like this at the table.
 
odinscott

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From Home Poker Tourney - Robert's Rules of Poker Version 11 (Tourney section):

22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.

So your dealer's ruling was wrong. A penalty in these cases is usually that a player is forced to sit out for a specified time period or number of hands while still paying the blinds/antes. Splitting the pot is NEVER the right answer. Print a copy of Robert's Rules to fall back on the next time you have a situation like this at the table.

I understand that the link you posted is from Bob Ciaffone, but is there any official "rule book" that casinos use? Or is it his book I guess I am asking. :p
 
aliengenius

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The hand should stand, you can't declare it dead because he's exposed the cards. The guy with JJ called so the pot goes to the guy with A4.

The guy who exposed the cards should recieve some sort of penalty AFTER the hand, probably missing an orbit of the table or something.

^^this is exactly correct. The is LIVE, but he gets a penalty after.

Rule books here and here.
 
tenbob

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Almost the exact same situation happened to me in a Dublin Casino. It was a €50 double chance MTT. Drunk guy exposed his made set to me before he shoved on the river (i had top 2), and i called for a ruling. Floor manager declared the guy that exposed his hole cards was mucked and gave him a 5 min time out, awarding me the pot.

Personally i felt that the ruling was a little harsh, and ive come across a few variants of this rule in a few different card rooms, but in general there should be an availabiltiy of house rules available on request, and its something i usually have a quick read over when i play in somewhere new.
 
Jillychemung

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I understand that the link you posted is from Bob Ciaffone, but is there any official "rule book" that casinos use? Or is it his book I guess I am asking. :p



There is no official rule book that all the casino and tournament directors use. The one posted has 99% of the rules but there will be slight differences from place to place.

For example some directors say "Show One, Show All" meaning if you show one of your hole cards you have to show both. DN is very vocal that this is a bad rule and some others are just as vocal that it is a good rule.

I know that the wsop has rules for exposing cards that DN does not agree with. Here is WSOP rules link World Series of Poker - Official Tournament Coverage and Results
 
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aliengenius

aliengenius

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There is no official rule book that all the casino and tournament directors use. The one posted has 99% of the rules but there will be slight differences from place to place.

For example some directors say "Show One, Show All" meaning if you show one of your hole cards you have to show both. DN is very vocal that this is a bad rule and some others are just as vocal that it is a good rule.

I know that the WSOP has rules for exposing cards that DN does not agree with. Here is WSOP rules link World Series of Poker - Official Tournament Coverage and Results


Here is one. Argument here.
 
BabyShoes

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Damn, you guys are quick!

Many thanks for all of the replies. Sadly, living in Africa as I do (for now!) many things are made flexible and sometimes this includes rules that are rules by virtue of the fact that they govern the sport everywhere, and should not be flexible except where expressly stipulated.

Much obliged!
 
WVHillbilly

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As several other have stated, casinos generally have a few specific house rules that may be counter to RROP but I have found that for our home games using RROP is a great start. So many home games have nothing and the rules are interpreted on the fly and not always consistently. Using RROP eliminates this problem.
 
Chiefer

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i seem to remember jamie gold doing this when he won the series. he flipped one of his cards rather quickly but no one but the other player said anthing about it. i think the commentators did say that it was illegal and he should be careful about breaking anymore rules.
 
OzExorcist

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All been said above: the player who exposed their hand should be penalised, but their hand won't be ruled dead.

TDA Rule 31 covers it too, though they make no distinction about the situation being heads up or anything else: they say if there's action pending, the player should be penalised (http://www.pokertda.com/rules.pdf)

The player with JJ has nobody to blame but himself though - he has absolutely no redress after he's called, and I believe the dealer made a huge mistake splitting the pot.

This is all fairly academic, of course, as at the end of the day the dealer / floor manager's decision is pretty much always final. Only choice you've got is whether you play there again or not. I take it this wasn't in a casino?
 
K_Kahne_Fan

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A little off the OP, but what if...

player A: bets out
player B: re-raises
player C: while they are thinking, player B exposes winning hand, player C folds
player A: (umm... SEEING the winning hand) wants to fold.

Should player A be given their bet back?
 
OzExorcist

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A little off the OP, but what if...

player A: bets out
player B: re-raises
player C: while they are thinking, player B exposes winning hand, player C folds
player A: (umm... SEEING the winning hand) wants to fold.

Should player A be given their bet back?

Player A can fold, but he can't get his bet back. Player B should be penalised after the hand.
 
C

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^^^^ correct.

why should player A get their bet back?
 
K_Kahne_Fan

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^^^^ correct.

why should player A get their bet back?

Player C was able to make their call AFTER player B showed the winning hand, which is clearly an unfair advantage to player A. Had player A had the same advantage as player C, they (should) would have folded as well.
 
OzExorcist

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Still nothing player A can do about it. It's really a glass half-empty approach that's being taken here though: Player A made a bet, one assumes because they thought they had a good hand. Player B raises with what is definitely the best hand - if they hadn't exposed their cards, would player A have called? Maybe.

So they haven't so much lost a bet as they've been saved a call.

Pretty sure you'll find the reason that the exposed hand isn't immediately ruled dead and bets etc. returned is that the exposed hand mightn't necessarily be the best one.

If a player exposes their hand and they have a straight, another player who has a flush would have a right to be pissed off if the other hand was ruled dead and the pot was ended there: they had a better hand, and the could've won more money.
 
JblackII

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House rules always rule over anything else really. And as wrong is might seem, theres nothing anyone can do about it.

But it is wrong, person with the straight shouldve won the pot. Just my opinion.

Unless it some low limit between-friends game, Im not showing anyone anything untill the hand is done.
 
riverboatrat

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clearly there are different rules all over the place, but is there a set of rules that presides over all others ?

i.e. why dont all poker rules follow the wsop format ?

It doesnt make sense to have conflicting sets of rules. I understand that house rules overrule BUT shouldnt even house rules follow 1 set of rules so as to maintain some sort of standard ?

I.e. why dont all rules be based on the wsop rules ?

On that note, where can i find a complete set of wsop rules that covers EVERYTHING from a-z ?

I looked at the rules over at wordseriesofpoker.com and there cant be just 8 rules pertaining to holdem ?
 
BabyShoes

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All been said above: the player who exposed their hand should be penalised, but their hand won't be ruled dead.

TDA Rule 31 covers it too, though they make no distinction about the situation being heads up or anything else: they say if there's action pending, the player should be penalised (http://www.pokertda.com/rules.pdf)

The player with JJ has nobody to blame but himself though - he has absolutely no redress after he's called, and I believe the dealer made a huge mistake splitting the pot.

This is all fairly academic, of course, as at the end of the day the dealer / floor manager's decision is pretty much always final. Only choice you've got is whether you play there again or not. I take it this wasn't in a casino?

No casino, but a small club started in a local pub.

We're all learning the rules as we go along so staying away is not the direction I'd suggest as the call contained no malice, but was - hopefully - part of a learning curve...
 
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