Do you run it twice?

N

Narcotic35

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Total posts
134
Chips
0
I feel running it twice as a default sort of protects from bad beats when going all in. However, you do split pots at times when you were ahead. Is it worth it in the long run? Mathematically I would think it does if you can eliminate part of the bad beats, am I right? Do you have run it twice always activated?
 
D

Dani_California

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Total posts
241
Chips
0
I feel running it twice as a default sort of protects from bad beats when going all in. However, you do split pots at times when you were ahead. Is it worth it in the long run? Mathematically I would think it does if you can eliminate part of the bad beats, am I right? Do you have run it twice always activated?

I don't run it twice but I'm also interested to hear if there is some kind of mathematical truth behind it whether it is profitable or not. Cause I feel like yes, it may protect you from bad beats but it works in the other direction as well and gives your opponent better chances to get lucky and win. So if you think it the other way round: it might also prevent you from winning the whole pot that you would've won with only one run.
 
N

Narcotic35

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Total posts
134
Chips
0
That's exactly the reason for this thread. Yesterday I had to split a 240BB pot with a LAG player holding 88 against my AA. A rather frustrating experience.
 
godblessiraq

godblessiraq

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 7, 2016
Total posts
1,151
Chips
0
I always run it twice when asked of me because I feel, mathematically, it reduces variance. Someone please correct me if I am wrong as I am not a mathematician.
 
K

koskesh

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 11, 2017
Total posts
428
Chips
0
What is the origin of this ridiculous idea? It must have started during a home game between family or friends because unless I’m playing a friendly home game with family or close friends, it would be crazy to give my opponent(s) another chance at taking the pot.
 
CforChampion

CforChampion

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2018
Total posts
124
Chips
0
What does run it twice do?

I've felt like enabling it to check it out but I have no idea what it does :D
 
N

Narcotic35

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Total posts
134
Chips
0
Let's see if I can work out the maths myself:

AA against 88 on a 6-max table has a 80% of winning, that's 1:5 you're going to loose.

If we think both have 100BB that makes your equity +80BB over time for going all in in this situation. That's for a single run.

However, the second run has an additional 5 cards removed from the deck, so villains probability changes to maybe 22% in the second run. That makes it roughly 20%+22% = 42% for villain not to loose his whole stack. The chances of villain not hitting in either run is roughly 0.8*0.77 = 61%. Let's settle for a 60% chance.

The chances of villain hitting both runs is 0.2*0.1 = 2%, effectively making quads.

That makes hero's equity: 60% to win 100BB, 2% to loose all, 38% to split. Does that mean the total equity is (0.6*100) + (0.38*0) - (0.02*100) = +58BB

This is not regarding the 2% chance of both hitting a set in the same draw and not accounting for the rake.

Does that mean that although you loose your stack less often with aces, you split so much more often that your equity gets ruined???? :confused: :confused:


Thank you very much for all mathematically gifted people to revise the calculation !!!!

Edit: I am disabling run it twice immediately just in case my calculation is right. It would mean that RIT only favors recklessly loose opponents.
 
vapandrei

vapandrei

Rock Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2017
Total posts
449
Awards
2
Chips
0
What does run it twice do?

I've felt like enabling it to check it out but I have no idea what it does :D

Exacly! I enabled it thinking it would make me hit check/call twice because of my history of trying to use the fast commands and accidentally calling a shove or a big raise.

After I accidentally called a shove and it didn't help, I disabled it. Now I read something on pokerstars, but I didn't fully understand what it does.. so I'll leave it off.

If anyone uses it and knows the pros/cons and how it works, I'd appreciate it.
 
N

Narcotic35

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Total posts
134
Chips
0
Exacly! I enabled it thinking it would make me hit check/call twice because of my history of trying to use the fast commands and accidentally calling a shove or a big raise.

After I accidentally called a shove and it didn't help, I disabled it. Now I read something on PokerStars, but I didn't fully understand what it does.. so I'll leave it off.

If anyone uses it and knows the pros/cons and how it works, I'd appreciate it.

What it does is that once all players are all in AND all players have it activated, the remaining streets will be dealt twice and the pot will be split 50% for the winner of each run. So if you win both, you get the pot, if you win only one, you get half minus the rake, if you loose both you get nothing.
 
CforChampion

CforChampion

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2018
Total posts
124
Chips
0
What it does is that once all players are all in AND all players have it activated, the remaining streets will be dealt twice and the pot will be split 50% for the winner of each run. So if you win both, you get the pot, if you win only one, you get half minus the rake, if you loose both you get nothing.
Ah OK I get it now lol.

I wonder if there are a lot of people who use it.
 
vapandrei

vapandrei

Rock Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2017
Total posts
449
Awards
2
Chips
0
What it does is that once all players are all in AND all players have it activated, the remaining streets will be dealt twice and the pot will be split 50% for the winner of each run. So if you win both, you get the pot, if you win only one, you get half minus the rake, if you loose both you get nothing.

Oh, I see, thank you! Sounds interesting in theory but smells like roulette a bit. Even if I wanted to use it, I'm not going all in too many times, a good part of times I know for sure (98%) I'll win and when I would use RIT the other player(s) would have to have it enabled.

I reckon it only happens a few, few times when you have it enabled by default.
 
CforChampion

CforChampion

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2018
Total posts
124
Chips
0
Oh, I see, thank you! Sounds interesting in theory but smells like roulette a bit. Even if I wanted to use it, I'm not going all in too many times, a good part of times I know for sure (98%) I'll win and when I would use RIT the other player(s) would have to have it enabled.

I reckon it only happens a few, few times when you have it enabled by default.
I agree with you :D

I'm just going to keep it disabled :D
 
N

Narcotic35

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Total posts
134
Chips
0
I enabled it because when you watch super high roller cash games on TV they often agree to run it twice.....so I thought it must be a good idea. It's probably more for the viewers than for any good reason. I should have questioned it first, I suppose. *disabling now*
 
cazual88

cazual88

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Total posts
610
Chips
0
Yes, I did it when I was playing on pokerstars . In other rooms I did not notice such a function.
 
nucl

nucl

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 28, 2014
Total posts
182
Chips
0
Yes almost always. Except when I have a nutted hand I don't, like if villain has 1 or 2 outs.
With running it twice you are decreasing variance.
 
firstcrack

firstcrack

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 25, 2016
Total posts
434
Chips
0
Variance aside, and maybe that's not fair (excuse the pun), running it twice to me seems to be more of a bit of an insurance, or bail out, for poor decision making. On the other hand, if you're playing with 'frenemies', or a consistent group of players, it may help keep the good vibe going at the table. Or if you are playing with someone for the first time, it may help to convey a sense of empathy or compassion. The game within the game is that you will see some players conveniently holding off on their agreement to run it twice until they sneak a peek at their opponents hands. Human nature, I suppose.

Now, for me personally, I don't really care for running it twice but I also don't want to make any big waves so would probably acquiesce to my opponent's wishes unless he was displaying consistent donk tendencies and I was righteously annoyed. :)
 
Last edited:
Milosika1991

Milosika1991

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Total posts
355
Chips
0
I am not fan "run twice" and i never use that option... :icon_rabb
 
pescaofish

pescaofish

Academic Poker
Loyaler
Joined
Nov 8, 2013
Total posts
2,027
Awards
10
PA
Chips
97
Las time I was at the Royal Casino Poker room in Panama City I saw several players calling for and accepting this option.
As for me, never will I accept it. is crazy to give my contender and extra chance to win. I play my cards to the end to Win or Fold! No more Options! :cool:
 
P

pcryan

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 27, 2018
Total posts
4
Chips
0
Las time I was at the Royal Casino Poker room in Panama City I saw several players calling for and accepting this option.
As for me, never will I accept it. is crazy to give my contender and extra chance to win. I play my cards to the end to Win or Fold! No more Options! :cool:

These are my sentiments as well. If we're here to play poker, let the poker gods rule the sweat. Bad beats are part of the game.
 
K

koskesh

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 11, 2017
Total posts
428
Chips
0
The information/example below is from https://www.flopturnriver.com/poker/running-twice-ultimate-guide-24856/

The Math Behind Running it Twice

There is a misconception that running it twice gives the hand that is behind in equity two chances to improve their hand. This is incorrect. Running it twice helps you realize your equity better than running it once.
Let’s say you have AA and the villain has KK on a board of K 5 A K rainbow and you both go all in on the turn and decide to run it twice.
There are 44 unknown cards, either in the deck or they have been folded. There is only 1 card coming and you have 1 out to win. Assume the pot is worth $1000.
If you run it once you have 2 cards in 44 that will improve your hand so your EV = 1/44 = 2.27% = $22.70 in expected value.
If you run it twice your ev will look like this EV = 1/44
Now to map out what all the numbers mean in the run it twice example.
1/44 is your original equity, in that you have 1 wins out of 44 cards. 1 in 44 times you will win $500 on the first run earning you $11.35 in expected value. 43 out of 44 times you have the opportunity on the turn to win $500, 1 in 43 times as well as the 1/44 times you will never win the 2nd deal as you already won the 1st deal and cannot win twice.
So we have determined that on the first run you will spike 1 in 44 times which will win you half the pot, $500, which puts your EV at $11.35 for the first deal.
On the second run 43/44 times you will have the chance to win the second half of the pot of $500, 1/44 times you will have 0% chance to win the second half of the pot as you already hit the Ace on the first run. So 97.73% (43/44) of the time you have a 2.33% (1/43) chance to win $500.
97.73% * 2.33% = 2.77%
2.77% * $500 = $11.35 EV
$11.35 (first run) + $11.35 (second run) = $22.70 EV which is equal to running it once.
So as illustrated in the example above, running it twice is 0 EV tool to reduce variance.
 
S

Spripe

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 21, 2017
Total posts
664
Chips
0
Personally I always have it checked in Omaha but in hold em I will only do it in a few situations, either when I'm to pot committed with just a draw I will hit 40% of them time or something. Or when I think they are drawing with pretty good equity. If I feel I'm way ahead I won't run it twice because as you stated it will be more beneficial long term
 
O

Ofarah

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 22, 2018
Total posts
126
Chips
0
I would consider running it twice if you're playing larger stakes and not very confident about your shove. If you're playing the micros there's really no point in running it twice in my opinion!
 
P

PuckerUpChat

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Total posts
53
Chips
0
Holy Smokes! Why would you want to share your winnings with others. For me, keep it simple.
 
N

Narcotic35

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Total posts
134
Chips
0

Thank you koskesh for posting this. It really helped to clarify the problem.

I also wanted to add that my calculation for the AA vs 88 example is wrong. The equity for one run only is 60BB, because obviously you loose 100BB 20% of the time. That makes it 60BB vs 58BB in my calculation, which is pretty much the same as the article is saying.

Maybe I turn it on again and will control my tilt better when I have to split the pot. :icon_stud
 
Top