Cry Babies VS. Donkeys

[tru2who]

Why is it that the guy who gets frustrated and states the FACTS is always called a "Cry Baby", "Poor Sport", Etc. Even if he doesn't make an Unclassy comment about the other player?

What if he just says, "I can't believe this guy" or "I can't believe I got called by a 10-J for all my chips" or whatever the case may be?

And then half the table backs the guy who played the hand like a complete gambler and moron? Don't get me wrong we all make poor calls, even the great phil Hellmuth, but why jump on the "cry baby"

It is not poor sport to state the facts. Where is the justice for the better players online and brick and mortar?

The only thing a donkey can say after sucking out for all his chips in with the worst of it can say is "your a cry baby" or they laugh, or they say "I was feelin it" WTF Is that? FEELING lcky? Realize in poker there is mathematics involved....realize this fish: There are always 4 of a kind, 13 of a suit. Mathematically AK of hearts is still a dog to 2-2, Flushes rank higher than Straights because they are HARDER to get (Less likely to happen) so sticking all your money in on a flop of 2s-7s-kd and you are holding say.... As-8s and you are up against Kh-Kc...you are a fairly big dog....your ace is no good, you have 9 spades in the deck, 1 being a K so you have 8 outs...its pretty much the same as having an open ended straight draw. Do you realize 10 handed there are 29 cards left after a flop? do the fcking math...8 out of 29...you really think you can justify chasing 8 cards out of 29 for all of your money?

I think a lot of people playing poker don't UNDERSTAND that there is a reason some people have 11 bracelets and others have 1 or 2 or none.
Skill is involved.

I wish that all the worst players would take all their money and play in the biggest buy in they can, so they can go broke faster and poker will get back down to what it once was. A game of a few fish...3 fish and 7 sharks.
Now I am ranting and getting off the path. Lets get back to the question?

Why are people receiving constant bad beats to poor players considered unsportsmanlike? Why is winning a pot by dishing out a bad beat a ticket for them to speak up and say things like "if you're so good why are you out of the tournament and I am still here?"

I just can't stand when people get lucky, and REFUSE to acknowledge it. Can't they just say what I say? "you know, I got lucky, but I am not sorry"
It would shut up a lot of us "Cry Babies" if just once in a while a donkey just admitted they got lucky and happy with it.

 

[Chris_TC]

It's quite simple: bad players are backed up by other bad players. And since there's so many of them, you'll often be in the minority.

I played a hand recently where I had AJdc on a 856ddd flop in a re-raise pot. I check-raised all-in and got called by TThc.
This is obviously a terrible call because he can't beat anything. The best he could ever hope for is a coinflip while hands like a made flush, a set, two pair, a bigger pocket pair, a made straight all have him crushed.
In fact, AJdc is just about the worst hand I'd check-raise all-in with, and even that was a slight favorite against him.

So when he made the call (he is a NL50 regular, playing NL100 at the time), I said "pretty sick call there", and immediately some fish at the table responded "no, that was a great call. nh!"
Obviously, most players don't know that you play against ranges, not against specific hands. In fact, most players don't know much about the game at all. But they all think they do :deal:

 

[ph_il]

The only thing a donkey can say after sucking out for all his chips in with the worst of it can say is "your a cry baby" or they laugh, or they say "I was feelin it" WTF Is that? FEELING lcky? Realize in poker there is mathematics involved....realize this fish: There are always 4 of a kind, 13 of a suit. Mathematically AK of hearts is still a dog to 2-2, Flushes rank higher than Straights because they are HARDER to get (Less likely to happen) so sticking all your money in on a flop of 2s-7s-kd and you are holding say.... As-8s and you are up against Kh-Kc...you are a fairly big dog....your ace is no good, you have 9 spades in the deck, 1 being a K so you have 8 outs...its pretty much the same as having an open ended straight draw. Do you realize 10 handed there are 29 cards left after a flop? do the fcking math...8 out of 29...you really think you can justify chasing 8 cards out of 29 for all of your money?

Its actually 8 outs/45 cards left in the deck.
...I think. Oh man, someone correct me if Im wrong about this...

IIRC, it doesnt matter how many cards that have been dealt. You're know your hand, your opponents hand, and whats on the flop...so, other than those cards, opponent is still drawing from the remaining deck. Or in this case, opponent has 8 outs of the remaining 45 cards regardless of how many cards have been dealt.

 

[shinedown.45]

Why is it that the guy who gets frustrated and states the FACTS is always called a "Cry Baby", "Poor Sport", Etc. Even if he doesn't make an Unclassy comment about the other player?

What if he just says, "I can't believe this guy" or "I can't believe I got called by a 10-J for all my chips" or whatever the case may be?

And then half the table backs the guy who played the hand like a complete gambler and moron? Don't get me wrong we all make poor calls, even the great phil Hellmuth, but why jump on the "cry baby"

It is not poor sport to state the facts. Where is the justice for the better players online and brick and mortar?

The only thing a donkey can say after sucking out for all his chips in with the worst of it can say is "your a cry baby" or they laugh, or they say "I was feelin it" WTF Is that? FEELING lcky? Realize in poker there is mathematics involved....realize this fish: There are always 4 of a kind, 13 of a suit. Mathematically AK of hearts is still a dog to 2-2, Flushes rank higher than Straights because they are HARDER to get (Less likely to happen) so sticking all your money in on a flop of 2s-7s-kd and you are holding say.... As-8s and you are up against Kh-Kc...you are a fairly big dog....your ace is no good, you have 9 spades in the deck, 1 being a K so you have 8 outs...its pretty much the same as having an open ended straight draw. Do you realize 10 handed there are 29 cards left after a flop? do the fcking math...8 out of 29...you really think you can justify chasing 8 cards out of 29 for all of your money?

I think a lot of people playing poker don't UNDERSTAND that there is a reason some people have 11 bracelets and others have 1 or 2 or none.
Skill is involved.

I wish that all the worst players would take all their money and play in the biggest buy in they can, so they can go broke faster and poker will get back down to what it once was. A game of a few fish...3 fish and 7 sharks.
Now I am ranting and getting off the path. Lets get back to the question?

Why are people receiving constant bad beats to poor players considered unsportsmanlike? Why is winning a pot by dishing out a bad beat a ticket for them to speak up and say things like "if you're so good why are you out of the tournament and I am still here?"

I just can't stand when people get lucky, and REFUSE to acknowledge it. Can't they just say what I say? "you know, I got lucky, but I am not sorry"
It would shut up a lot of us "Cry Babies" if just once in a while a donkey just admitted they got lucky and happy with it.

If you have been playing poker long enough, you should know that more times than not, your better hand will hold up and when you recieve a badbeat it does no good for your table image to cry about it, you voice your opinion on a hand where villian had bad odds to call and you are genuinely angry about it and you cry about it, other players pick up on this and think "Sweet, this guy is on tilt"
How will your bets be respected after you cry about a bad call?
Something to think about before you cry again.



BTW, there are players who play way worse than you and those are your personal ATM's if you just take the time to deal with their bad calls.

 

[Tygran]

The only thing a donkey can say after sucking out for all his chips in with the worst of it can say is "your a cry baby" or they laugh, or they say "I was feelin it" WTF Is that? FEELING lcky? Realize in poker there is mathematics involved"

Sure math is involved. Now you, realize this:

1) Most people SUCK at math. I should know. I teach it.

It directly follows that most people who play poker also SUCK at math.

2) Most fish think only in terms of results. Absolutely nothing else. If they win they made the right calls all the way, if they lose they did not. I've had plenty of them tell me this verbatim (never mind they only had 1, 2, 5, 8, however many outs. Half of them think outs are something from a baseball game anyway and has nothing to do with poker).

its pretty much the same as having an open ended straight draw. Do you realize 10 handed there are 29 cards left after a flop? do the fcking math...8 out of 29...you really think you can justify chasing 8 cards out of 29 for all of your money?

Sheesh.

If you are going to berate math skills then at least have your own math facts right.

I mentioned people are bad at math? People, generally, are horribly worse at probabilistic concepts.

The number of cards that have been folded/mucked/burned are totally irrelevant to calculating the probabilities of stuff. The only cards you can "not count" are the ones you can directly account for. AKA the 2 in you hand + whatever is on the board.

I wish that all the worst players would take all their money and play in the biggest buy in they can, so they can go broke faster and poker will get back down to what it once was. A game of a few fish...3 fish and 7 sharks.
Now I am ranting and getting off the path. Lets get back to the question?

If you really wish this then you just have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

You want to play at a table with 7 sharks all the time?

Why are people receiving constant bad beats to poor players considered unsportsmanlike? Why is winning a pot by dishing out a bad beat a ticket for them to speak up and say things like "if you're so good why are you out of the tournament and I am still here?"

Cause... they suck at math and don't really understand what a bad beat is? I've honestly talked to people who believe it isn't a bad beat if they have a "good hand preflop (nevermind you have a better one) or, probably my favorite, "it's not a bad beat if I flop the set after all the money goes in preflop with my JJ vs your AA, because I made my hand on the flop after all. If I had hit it on the river it would have been a bad beat". (I honestly saw someone say this)

What do you expect someone who doesn't understand any of the mathematical concepts and is only results oriented to say? As far as they are concerned, they won therefore they outplayed you. Expecting them to think anything else is a complete waste of time and effort.





On a serious note, donkeys will always be a part of poker. And you should be very grateful for that fact.

/and from time to time all of us need to remind ourselves of that, myself included.

 

[baby kahuna]

Most of the times your FACTS are selective. You mean to tell me you have never sucked out on someone. In order to win tournaments youre going to have to. You dont come in with the best of it all the time. So what happens when you win. Do you say "Im the donkey. I got Lucky"? Your separating yourself from bad players calling them donkeys, mean while thinking youre a GOOD player, is an often made mistake that most people make. When someone sucks out on you he's an idiot. When you suck out on someone its because you had implied odds cause in essence you are the good player. This kind of nonsense doesnt wash. Take your beats like a pro.
Who cares about the facts. You either win or you lose. You do your best just like every player does. Youre right there is a reason why the cream always rises to the top. Sure there are exceptions like Hellmuth or Matasow who whine like "crybabies" but theres always guys like Ivey, Brunson, Chan, Ferguson, Greenstein, etc who get up and look for the next game.

 

[itlegacy]

The simple answer ... block/mute the rude individuals and press on. I view such behavior frankly as immature. FYI, Hellmuth and Matasow get PAID to act out.

 

[donnie]

if i get my money in with best hand the rest is up to the dealer all you can ask is to be ahead at that time if some1 makes a bad play and calls me and draws out on me i say nothin all i do is make a note on the guy and try to get them next time any game you play n live or on line will have crybaby's.. just keep gettn your money in ahead of these people and justice will eventually prevail:deal:

 

[MithyCat420]

I have suffered at the hands of many donks at the tables and I don't cry about it ... In fact I acknowledge their (a-hemmmm) win and go on about my business, and as usual my ladies grace is met with a ( Ha!!! U Loser !!!) grrrrrrr. Eventually Karma will come back and bite them thoroughly in the butt. And I sit back and LMAO. But in the meantime I sit and see a lot of awesome players donked out by bad players and I mean baaad...criiikey when will the insanity stop?????

 

[vaboris]

Name me a sport or a game where people like a crybaby or a whiner...

 

[CAPT. ZIGZAG]

If you have been playing poker long enough, you should know that more times than not, your better hand will hold up and when you recieve a badbeat it does no good for your table image to cry about it,

There it is right there. Specially the bold stuff. Everybody eventually quiets down, and kicks the dog instead.


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[sliver101]

no one likes a cry baby

 

[tru2who]

you are rright, those who said 45 instead of 29...there are only 29 left, but they can't know what the folding hands were...so basically my math was wrong to the people giving them more credit with 8 outs in 29 is better than 8 out of 40, none the less, either way they are drawing to slim chances of hitting.

And yes, if i am at a 10 player table I do want 7 sharks and 2 fish or 6 sharks and 3 fish, then me...you can't bet a donkey off a pocket pair

K-10-9 on board and a guy calling down with 8-8 is a fish, I mean how can u call that in an online game? It's barely plausible in a live game unless you world class at reading people and know 100% your 8-8 is ahead after all 5 cards are on the board.

You can't bluff a bad player, truest statement ever. You can bluff a great player, and bluffing in NL is crucial.
If you wait for monsters in a game u are going to donate and then end up going all in and barely have any profit. You have to play the players at some point and not your cards....leading me to the saying "I'll play my cards you play yours"...well I think "ok fish, you play your cards, and I'll play off my read on you"

another stupid ass thing "I know you got me, but I gotta call" NO, you DONT have to call, if you think you are beat why are you donating? ...mostly hate it when I am on a stone cold bluff and they call thinking they are beat and are rewarded for what is to me a BAD CALL...if you call thinking you are beat it is a bad call, PERIOD. If you call someone all in wit 10 high and say "I know my 10 hi is good, I call" Now that is a great call....i dunno maybe i am insane...just don't understand people that put their tournaments on a coinflip calling...its a different thing to bet all in than it is to call all in.

You can raise wit anything, but calling is much different.

 

[PokerVic]

It's quite simple: bad players are backed up by other bad players. And since there's so many of them, you'll often be in the minority.

Bad players are also backed up by smart players, because they want them to keep playing badly, and have fun doing it.

I'll gladly back up a donkey against a crybaby, as it keeps the donk happy, and often puts the crybaby on tilt. That's a win-win situation.

 

[dmorris68]

This isn't directed personally at the original poster, but he brings up a topic that I've been thinking a lot about lately. It never ceases to amaze me at the amount of whining people do online when they get a bad beat. "But you weren't supposed to call my re-raise with that!! You suck!" What?

Sorry to those who might like to think poker is all pure skill, but I disagree. Over time, sure, we all know applied skill and proper strategy will be more profitable than luck. But there is always a factor of luck, and there is always a factor of gambling involved. When you bluff, are you not gambling? If you chase a draw, are you not gambling? When you push with 77 from the short stack are you not gambling? Doesn't matter how strong your draw or TPTK is, you have no guarantee of making it or having it hold up. Within the immediate context of a particular betting round, it very often comes down to a coin flip. And probably 75+% of online poker players don't study the math and science of the game, instead treating it like Bingo or blackjack -- just another gambling game. Sometimes they'll win and suck you out, other times they lose and quit, or reload and keep going. They thrive on the thrill of the gamble, especially those who can afford to lose. They can't be bothered with "math," that would take all the fun and excitement out of it.

The other night I was playing 20NL at SportsBook and most of the table were pretty cool, we were chatting and NH'ing each other, laughing off our own bad plays, etc. This one kid (and it had to be a kid, I don't know grown men that act like that -- well, aside from Helmuth), was getting called down by another player that, according to my Poker Tracker HUD stats, was playing fairly well, not too tight or too loose. Maybe 25/6/2 if I remember his stats right. Certainly not donkish play by the usual standard. Anyway, this kid was furious when he got drawn out by something like TT to his AA or KK and BUSTED not once, not twice, but three times. Three times he re-buys for $30 and each time he loses it, whining the whole time about how awesome he was and how everybody else played like crap. Obviously, the irony was lost on him. The rest of us took great joy in needling him into full tilt, despite the fact it distracted me from own game. This guy was bragging about how he was the top player on Sportsbook, had just cashed $6600 out of his account that he had made in the past month. Yeah, right. Playing 20NL and whining like a baby? Please. He even challenged me to heads-up for any amount of money to "prove" how awesome he was.

Sometimes people just get a "feel" for a hand or the other players, and play outside of character or "proper strategy." It's part of being a good poker player, and Phil Ivey posted something just to that effect in one his FullTilt tip articles:

Online Poker at Full Tilt Poker - Phil Ivey Pro Tips: Pro Tip 125

So while I'm honing my strategy and paying attention to all the books and helpful hints I glean from sources like CC, I also learn to trust my gut and take a shot sometimes. Sometimes it pays off, other times it doesn't, but sometimes playing "correct" doesn't pay off either. You've got to mix it up lest you play like a robot and give away your entire strategy.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but this is something that I keep running into online and it just blows me away how childish some people act, as if their *right* to collect any given pot had been stolen from them. Sure, I roll my eyes when a donk calls all-in with 23o (yes, it happened last night), especially when they manage to suck out. But I don't whine about it other than perhaps a sign or mutter under my breath. Those people can be your ATM machines if you just figure out how to play them instead of whining about them.

 

[zachvac]

And yes, if i am at a 10 player table I do want 7 sharks and 2 fish or 6 sharks and 3 fish, then me...you can't bet a donkey off a pocket pair

Then know that and take their entire stack when you hit your top pair, overpair, set, 2-pair, etc.

You can't bluff a bad player, truest statement ever. You can bluff a great player, and Bluffing in NL is crucial.

First off, a good player is more likely to know that you bluff a lot and call you much lighter. Only difference is the good player will call with marginal hands rather than longshot draws. You'll be called down by middle pairs if you bluff that much.

If you wait for monsters in a game u are going to donate and then end up going all in and barely have any profit. You have to play the players at some point and not your cards....leading me to the saying "I'll play my cards you play yours"...well I think "ok fish, you play your cards, and I'll play off my read on you"

Wrong, this range right here: 22+,AJs+,KQs,AQo+,KQo, is 9.8% of all hands, meaning you'll get one of these once every 10 or so hands. If you're playing unbluffable players, here's how a typical round should go, note that at this rate you'll be playing about a hand per orbit, so you need to win 1.5 big blinds each hand for this to be profitable. I think each hand will win you at least that if played against fish.

AA-JJ, just push preflop hard. Sets we obviously stack and overpairs we push hard.

22-TT, play for set value. We set ~1 in 8.5 flops, so we lose a big blind 7 of these so as long as we win 20+ each time we set we're fine. Assuming they are all donkeys we've already got ~3 more big blinds, so if we can only get paid another 17 big blinds when we set we win, and that should NOT be hard against donks with a preflop pot of 4 big blinds. With certain opponents that could be just one pot-sized flop bet with callers, and if we get called there donks are sure to call the turn as well.

AJs+, AQo+, KQ we just play for top pair value. I think we flop pairs about 45%, and since some of these will not be top pair let's just say we only hit top pair 1 in 3 (heavy underestimation imo). We lose a big blind 2/3 of the time but the one time we hit as long as we win 6.5 big blinds when we have top pair, easy against donks, we win.

In fact, if we just win ~25 for sets, ~10 for top pair hands, and 4 for over pair type hands, this will give us close to a 10 PTBB/100 hands winrate, something I can only wish I could get (I'm at ~2 at 100nl and the best players ever I've seen are at like 5-7 at the mid to higher limits).

 

[jewboy07]

K-10-9 on board and a guy calling down with 8-8 is a fish, I mean how can u call that in an online game? It's barely plausible in a live game unless you world class at reading people and know 100% your 8-8 is ahead after all 5 cards are on the board.

umm maybe im wrong but k-10-9 and holding 8's is the same live and online.
it doesn't make it worse or better depending on whether its live or not

 

[white_lytning]

You don't realize it right now, but the cry babies at the tables are just the same as the "donkeys" you think you are better than. You expect a hand thats a 60% favorite to win every time?

You cry, and go "Ahhh!!! how can you call with that for $50!!!!" the 40% of the time that the math says that hand will lose.

Crying, and tilting, and taking things personally are all signs of very weak players, and very little experience. No hand will win every time, when you realize this, you will be able to settle down a little.

You will also realize that you want players at your table that make bad decisions and play hands for more than their worth. If you didn't have those players you would have a very difficult time winning.

 

[PokerVic]

For those who would rather be at a table full of sharks, here's something I think is true that a lot of people don't seem to understand.

"If you can't beat the worst poker players, you have no chance of beating the best."

 

[nc_royals]

The only thing worse than donks talking about your play is what I call the "Table Police". There the arrogant ones like you that tell everyone what they should be calling with, raising with, folding, etc.

Doyle won two Bracelets with a 10 2 offsuit.... damn donk

Hachem won his with 7 3 offsuit.... another fish?

The statement you made about you'd rather have 3 fish and 7 sharks at the table.... I can appreciate a solid table but in the long run I'm in it to make money not to enjoy competition.

 

[N.D.]

Get real! Sharks eat fish and chicken. No fish, no chickens, no sharks. That simple. They'd just wind up cannibalizing each other into extinction.

Also I'm tired of people insisting that poker isn't gambling. It is gambling. Any time you take a chance, even if it's an educated risk, you're gambling. If it wasn't gambling it wouldn't be played in casinos. It just irks me that some folks go and get all holier than though about of all things, gambling.

It's their money, and if they want to take a bigger risk than you would take, that's their business. If more often than not they'll lose by taking that risk, then the last thing you should do is bitch about it, cuz you'll reap the rewards.

 

[CAPT. ZIGZAG]

Also I'm tired of people insisting that poker isn't gambling. It is gambling.

Thank you.


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[KyleJRM]

If you are immature enough, and emotional enough, to let things bother you so much that you have to point out your "facts" in the chat box (thus giving your opponent information that they wouldn't otherwise have) just to stroke your own ego about how smart you are...

Then the odds of you being an actual winning player longterm are slim. Not impossible, but slim.

 

[N.D.]

I thought the odds were always 50/50!!!
Either you win............. or you don't!!!!!!!!!!!

I might need to rethink this poker stuff!!!!!

Well, your odds are always 50/50 if you're pitching pennies or sit heads up against someone with equal skills to yours.

 

[wayschaff]

Its actually 8 outs/45 cards left in the deck.
...I think. Oh man, someone correct me if Im wrong about this...

actually in a 10 handed game it would only be 28 cards left. 20 cards to the players. 1 burn card for the flop and then the flop. all previding that everyone seated is playing.