Cooler: Definition?

Who do you agree with more?

  • royalburrito24

    Votes: 22 78.6%
  • iwouldprefernotto

    Votes: 6 21.4%

  • Total voters
    28
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

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iwouldprefernotto and myself had a recent instant messenger conversation regarding the definition of a cooler.
This whole conversation began when we witnessed this hand at his tournament table:

full tilt poker Game #4624138369: $26 Token Frenzy (34477654), Table 3 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:18:08 ET - 2007/12/25
Seat 1: davedub21 (3,565)
Seat 2: Lnr Rigbee (3,865)
Seat 3: NYPokerGod10 (7,840)
Seat 4: JCROBERTS (1,320)
Seat 5: Hurtner (4,595)
Seat 6: Sara_Pezzini (2,660)
Seat 8: soccerfreakjj10 (5,985)
Seat 9: bigdog80112 (3,335)
soccerfreakjj10 posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
bigdog80112 folds
davedub21 folds
Lnr Rigbee has 15 seconds left to act
Lnr Rigbee raises to 240
NYPokerGod10 folds
JCROBERTS raises to 1,320, and is all in
Hurtner folds
Sara_Pezzini folds
soccerfreakjj10 folds
Lnr Rigbee calls 1,080
JCROBERTS shows [Kh Ac]
Lnr Rigbee shows [As Ah]
*** FLOP *** [Ks 8h 9s]
*** TURN *** [Ks 8h 9s] [5d]
*** RIVER *** [Ks 8h 9s 5d] [5s]
JCROBERTS shows two pair, Kings and Fives
Lnr Rigbee shows two pair, Aces and Fives
Lnr Rigbee wins the pot (2,760) with two pair, Aces and Fives
JCROBERTS stands up

iwouldprefernotto argues that pushing AK pre flop, believing that you are either flipping a coin or dominating an opponent, and you get called by AA it is considered to be a cooler.
I, however, disagree. I believe that situation is not considered to be a cooler. I feel that if you are potentially only flipping a coin, then finding out that you are dominated isn't and shouldn't be considered a cooler. My definition of a cooler would be when you push KK pre flop, a dominating hand that is only dominated by one other hand, and to see the AA, would be a cooler.

We both agreed that another cooler could be set over set or boat over boat, things of that nature.
iwouldprefernotto (5:17:58 PM): what a cooler
iwouldprefernotto (5:18:03 PM): AK to run into aces
royalburrito24 (5:18:08 PM): thats not a cooler
royalburrito24 (5:18:20 PM): a cooler is KK vs AA
royalburrito24 (5:18:27 PM): and
iwouldprefernotto (5:18:27 PM): AK is a cooler too
iwouldprefernotto (5:18:29 PM): u are thinking
royalburrito24 (5:18:32 PM): boat over boat
iwouldprefernotto (5:18:34 PM): either flop or dominated
iwouldprefernotto (5:18:38 PM): flip*
iwouldprefernotto (5:18:43 PM): and you are hoping you dominated them
iwouldprefernotto (5:18:46 PM): and boom
iwouldprefernotto (5:18:50 PM): you are actually the one dominated
royalburrito24 (5:19:04 PM): flip cant be in there
royalburrito24 (5:19:09 PM): its where you think you got them dominated
royalburrito24 (5:19:14 PM): but they got the one hand that has you dominated
iwouldprefernotto (5:19:27 PM): its a cooler dammit
royalburrito24 (5:19:34 PM): no
iwouldprefernotto (5:19:40 PM): when you have AK
iwouldprefernotto (5:19:41 PM): its
iwouldprefernotto (5:19:45 PM): either i have them dominted
royalburrito24 (5:19:46 PM): not AK
iwouldprefernotto (5:19:50 PM): or at worst a flip
iwouldprefernotto (5:19:56 PM): and they turn over aces
iwouldprefernotto (5:19:56 PM): and its
royalburrito24 (5:19:57 PM): flip cant be in there
royalburrito24 (5:20:45 PM): im posting
royalburrito24 (5:20:47 PM): on cc
iwouldprefernotto (5:20:52 PM): the question?
royalburrito24 (5:20:55 PM): yes
royalburrito24 (5:21:00 PM): definition of a cooler

So, the questions that I am proposing are:
1) Who do you agree with more? Me? or iwouldprefernotto?
2) What is your definition of a cooler?
 
DaveE

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My definition of a cooler is playing a hand that is ahead of almost everything against someone that has that unlikely hand that beats you.

Set under set, Ace flush under str8 flush and your example come to mind.
 
Lo-Dog

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I wouldn't classify anything PF as a cooler.

Monster over monter post-flop is what I would call a cooler. A hand you just can't get away from.
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

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I wouldn't classify anything PF as a cooler.

Monster over monter post-flop is what I would call a cooler. A hand you just can't get away from.

KK is a very hard hand to get away from pre flop. I know I am not folding this hand unless something really tells me my opponent is holding AA.
 
arkadiy

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I classify that any good hand, that you think is ahead, running into a better unexpected hand is a cooler.

Example:

AK vs AA
Pre-flop AK raises to 300
AA raises to 750
AK calls
Flop K79
AK bets 1200
AA raises 3600
AK goes all-in for 5400

AK is now a cooler.
 
soccerfreakjj10

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I am by no means an expert on the term "cooler," but I think of it as referring to more of an emotional feeling than actual hands up against each other (I hope that makes sense hard to word.)

i feel a cooler is when you feel very excited that you have a big hand and suddenly you are completely surprised by somebody turning over a bigger hand.

Now while AK obviously not a huge hand, there is still a huge emotional layover when you realize you are practically drawing dead with it when your opponent turns over AA.

I think that this feeling is a "cooler."



I love these random debates that mean absolutely nothing :p
 
blankoblanco

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AK preflop is ace-high. ace-high losing is not a cooler, especially facing a raise, a show of strength, because you're shoving knowing that you're only about 50% against your opponent's calling range
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

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AK preflop is ace-high. ace-high losing is not a cooler, especially facing a raise, a show of strength, because you're shoving knowing that you're only about 50% against your opponent's calling range

Combu should count as 5 votes, but it does not matter right now. I am dominating in the polls, 2:1.
 
Zorba

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I havent heard of that term in poker before, the only cooler reference I know of is when Colonel Klink threatens Colonel Hogan with sending him to the cooler.
Sorry that this has nothing to do with the OP but I could not resist.
I voted royalburrito24.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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Above situation was a cooler for the AK because of his stack size relative to the blinds/first raise.

On the other hand, here is a donkey (me :eek:) playing AK:

fulltiltpoker Game #4598790593: Cardschat $150 Added Buyin (33935782), Table 1 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:09:42 ET - 2007/12/23
Seat 1: Amador_Ed (4,705)
Seat 2: aliengenius (3,625)
Seat 4: swoop (1,360)
Seat 5: imbiancone (4,235)
Seat 6: njpokerhoney (3,435)
Seat 8: ziggymom (3,260)
Seat 9: landy011350 (1,350)
Amador_Ed posts the small blind of 60
aliengenius posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aliengenius [Ac Kd]
swoop folds
imbiancone raises to 360
njpokerhoney folds
ziggymom folds
landy011350 folds
Amador_Ed folds
aliengenius has 15 seconds left to act
aliengenius raises to 1,000
imbiancone raises to 4,235, and is all in
aliengenius calls 2,625, and is all in
imbiancone shows [Ad As]
aliengenius shows [Ac Kd]
Uncalled bet of 610 returned to imbiancone
*** FLOP *** [Kc 8d 7d]
*** TURN *** [Kc 8d 7d] J♥
*** RIVER *** [Kc 8d 7d Jh] 4♠
imbiancone shows a pair of Aces
aliengenius shows a pair of Kings
landy011350 is feeling confused
imbiancone wins the pot (7,310) with a pair of Aces
aliengenius stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7,310 | Rake 0
Board: [Kc 8d 7d Jh 4s]
Seat 1: Amador_Ed (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: aliengenius (big blind) showed [Ac Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 4: swoop didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: imbiancone showed [Ad As] and won (7,310) with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: njpokerhoney didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: ziggymom didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: landy011350 (button) didn't bet (folded)

Big difference between shoving as a short stack and running into one of the few hands that have you dominated, and calling off all your money in a situation where it isn't necessary.

I don't understand your argument that KK running into AA is a cooler, but AK running into it isn't-- it's only one more hand (KK) that dominates AK, and you are crushing the other big aces. Sure you are racing a lot of other hands, but AK can expect small pairs to fold to his shove in your initial example. Hero is correctly leveraging AK's fold equity preflop, and runs into only one of two hands that has him dominated = cooler.
 
blankoblanco

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I don't understand your argument that KK running into AA is a cooler, but AK running into it isn't-- it's only one more hand (KK) that dominates AK, and you are crushing the other big aces. Sure you are racing a lot of other hands, but AK can expect small pairs to fold to his shove in your initial example. Hero is correctly leveraging AK's fold equity preflop, and runs into only one of two hands that has him dominated = cooler.

because AK doesn't even have to run into a dominating hand to be in less than good shape whereas KK does. AK can "run into" 99 and be behind. i mean if i make a big move against a tight player and i have Q5, the only hands he calls with which dominate me (we're assuming it's a big enough move that he'd fold AQ) would be QQ-AA. if one of those hands are present and call me, that doesn't make it a cooler imo
 
aliengenius

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because AK doesn't even have to run into a dominating hand to be in less than good shape whereas KK does. AK can "run into" 99 and be behind. i mean if i make a big move against a tight player and i have Q5, the only hands he calls with which dominate me (we're assuming it's a big enough move that he'd fold AQ) would be QQ-AA. if one of those hands are present and call me, that doesn't make it a cooler imo

I understand that. The point is that AK has good fold equity in the original example, and really doesn't even mind a call from QQ or lower. Running into AA or KK there is a cooler. If you run into a donk who will call you with deuces, so be it, it's not a cooler to lose there. It's not about being a few % behind, it's about running into a hand that has you crushed, and when you had very little/no choice in shoving.
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

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I understand that. The point is that AK has good fold equity in the original example, and really doesn't even mind a call from QQ or lower. Running into AA or KK there is a cooler. If you run into a donk who will call you with deuces, so be it, it's not a cooler to lose there. It's not about being a few % behind, it's about running into a hand that has you crushed, and when you had very little/no choice in shoving.

AG, I also understand what you are saying, but a cooler would be more like a made hand getting surprisingly beaten by a better made hand. AK isn't really a made hand, its really the highest ranked unmade hand pre flop, with very very large amounts of fold equity. Just becuase someone has fold equity like that does not mean that when they do get called by a dominating hand, they are going to experience a cooler.
I feel that the term cooler is used too loosely, especially in situations like these one where your hand isn't even a made one.
 
zachvac

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AG, I also understand what you are saying, but a cooler would be more like a made hand getting surprisingly beaten by a better made hand. AK isn't really a made hand, its really the highest ranked unmade hand pre flop, with very very large amounts of fold equity. Just becuase someone has fold equity like that does not mean that when they do get called by a dominating hand, they are going to experience a cooler.
I feel that the term cooler is used too loosely, especially in situations like these one where your hand isn't even a made one.

The thing is, what it is now means nothing. Even though an open-ended straight flush draw on the flop is just x high, it's still a favorite with 2 cards to come and I'd want all my money in with it. Made, unmade, it's all a matter of perspective. Preflop, 22 is a favorite over AK. 22 is a made hand and AK is not. Please don't try to tell me you'd rather be all-in against an unknown (not random, just unknown as in any game) hand with 22 than AK. AK is a slight dog to pocket pairs 22-QQ, dominated by KK and AA, but a favorite against every other hand. A-x is also usually a lot more common for people to call with, the range of hands AK dominates. Obviously position matters, if you're calling a 4-bet with AK you're a moron, but played here, I'd call AK running into AA a cooler, he can't get away from AK in this situation, and I'd love to see that hand if I were in his situation. Sure I'd prefer QQ-AA but we're just over 10 BBs, and this is our perfect chance to move in and if we do get a call have most likely either a coin flip or be a big favorite to double up. Just ran into one of the 2 hands where we're worse than a coin flip.
 
dufferdevon

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I think I had a "cooler" hand like this last night.

I have 33 - the flop comes 3d - 9s - Kh

Three callers - I bet the pot - next guy calls - other guys raises twice the pot - I call, so does the other guy

Next Card 7c - All-in am I, they all call

River As

I turn over 33
Next guy turns over 99
Last guy turns over AA

Three trips in one hand - that is a cooler
 
aliengenius

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AG, I also understand what you are saying, but a cooler would be more like a made hand getting surprisingly beaten by a better made hand. AK isn't really a made hand, its really the highest ranked unmade hand pre flop, with very very large amounts of fold equity. Just becuase someone has fold equity like that does not mean that when they do get called by a dominating hand, they are going to experience a cooler.
I feel that the term cooler is used too loosely, especially in situations like these one where your hand isn't even a made one.

Made/unmade is irrelevant. AK has a ton of showdown equity vs. a singe opponent (who can easily have a weaker ace), and can certainly win unimproved.

Cooler should be defined as having an expectation of x, and running into anti-x. If the vast majority of times you can expect to have either the best hand or be in a fair race, but run into one of two monsters, it's a cooler.

Your argument is essentially that AK can't be "coolered" at all because you don't feel that it's initial hand strength is high enough. But the fact that it's AK has nothing to do with it (I gave you a hand that I do NOT consider a cooler that had AK). Remember, in poker hand strength is all relative! J9o is a monster if your opponent will call you with J2.

A cooler is when you play the hand well according the the probability, and thus can expect a certain outcome in almost all situations, but happen to find yourself in a bad spot.
 
blankoblanco

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A cooler is when you play the hand well according the the probability, and thus can expect a certain outcome in almost all situations, but happen to find yourself in a bad spot.

well it's purely opinion but i think that's too general of a definition. basically means if a player who's played a hand well ever runs into a better hand, it's a cooler, because such a player is only going to get their money in when the odds (based on hand ranges and such) are in their favor. i mean, if this is the case i get "coolered" like 10 times a day. there are tons and tons of inevitabilities in poker (tournament poker especially) that are more or less set up by the cards, i just don't consider them all coolers. that definition seems too broad and pointless to me
 
aliengenius

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How about this:
Cooler: a "reverse bad beat", where you actually get your money in behind early in the hand, but had no choice because of the situation.
 
DaveE

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From an article by Joe Sebok
http://news.pokerpages.com/index.php?option=com_simpleblog&task=view&id=416
I don't think there was anything I could have done to not go broke on this hand. It just hit us both late in a tournament and that's the way it goes. At the final table these hands are either going to go your way or they're not, meaning that you are either going to win or you are going to get sent home. You don't wanna sweat it too much if you figure there was nothing you could have done.

This defines my perception of a cooler. It doesn't, however, prove or disprove anyone's arguements here.

IMHO it's like most things in poker...subjective and situational.
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

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From an article by Joe Sebok
http://news.pokerpages.com/index.php?option=com_simpleblog&task=view&id=416
I don't think there was anything I could have done to not go broke on this hand. It just hit us both late in a tournament and that's the way it goes. At the final table these hands are either going to go your way or they're not, meaning that you are either going to win or you are going to get sent home. You don't wanna sweat it too much if you figure there was nothing you could have done.
I do not think this is the definition of a cooler. It doesnt seem like Sebok was really defining a cooler, but rather an inevitable situation that arises during the late starges of an MTT. If you could post the situation that sebok is talking about, then I would be able to understand your argument a little better. But, for now, I think this definition is somewhat weak.
 
aliengenius

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Cooler: a strong hand that runs into a (rare) stronger hand for all the money on early streets, where the weaker hand unavoidably goes broke due to the circumstances.
 
dj11

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My definition of a cooler takes into account that fact that you must have been on some heat, and your chipstack is very good to great.

I don't think busting out qualifies. Nor do suckouts.

Best example might be the set over set where you have the most chips, and a set, and villain has the bigger set and is sitting behind you. And you both flopped these sets. First to act, you are pushing, pushing then shoving when the board looks bad, and you have every reason to believe you are ahead until that horrifying moment when the cards turn and you realize you lost, are now crippled, and thoughts of 12 gauge shotguns start floating around .................
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

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Cooler: a strong hand that runs into a (rare) stronger hand for all the money on early streets, where the weaker hand goes broke due to the unavoidable circumstances.

I do not like how you used early streets in your definition here. That is easily changeable because a cooler can easily happen at showdown as well.

Although I do agree with your definition about a strong hand running into a (rare) stronger hand, with AK I just do not see it, especially in this situation where you are faced with a raise, I do not see someone being certain that they are dominating their opponent.
I guess the argument could go back and forth for days and days, but I guess I just cannot grasp how AK could be coolerd all in pre flop.
The example I gave in the OP is probably not the best example, but it is what prompted the argument in the first place.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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Cooler: unavoidably getting your money in bad with a strong hand.
 
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