Cheating

[xOneCoolHandx]

A lot of fuss is being made over the Mike Postle situation. I have watched a lot about it and I believe he is cheating. This makes me wonder how much other cheating and collusion is going on in live games. I know that we all believe it occurs a lot online, but I think we all also think of live poker as more of a safe haven for that (and not taking bad beat after bead beat because online poker is so much more volatile than live poker). So, how much cheating do you think is going on in live games and have you ever caught anyone doing it?

 

[fundiver199]

The kind of cheating, which Mike Postle apparently did, can only be done in streamed live games, because these are the only ones, where its possible to get access to other players hole cards in a systematic way.

I think, you just need to be vigilant, whatever games you play, and if something look fishy, then dont play. There are videos on Youtube from a Vlogger, that are 6 month old or so, which he titled "avoid Mike Postle".

 

[ArmiSoo7]

I believe that everywhere is some player who are cheating, but i think it is really hard to prove.

 

[milka1605]

Have not yet come up with a method 100% effective against fraud.

 

[Poker_Mike]

The kind of cheating, which Mike Postle apparently did, can only be done in streamed live games, because these are the only ones, where its possible to get access to other players hole cards in a systematic way.

I think, you just need to be vigilant, whatever games you play, and if something look fishy, then dont play. There are videos on Youtube from a Vlogger, that are 6 month old or so, which he titled "avoid Mike Postle".

Is Mike Postle ONLY successful in streamed live games?

That would be the tell-tale sign.

Mostly there is a lot of YouTube video propaganda (right or wrong) about this player - describing him as a cheater. There are no 5-hour long videos showing him "not" cheating.

So if you research the subject you will only be subjected to pro-cheating opinions. 5 hours or 8 hours of this subject with math as evidence can lead anyone to believe this player is cheating (right or wrong).

So far it is just opinions and feelings.

Good luck !

 

[fundiver199]

Is Mike Postle ONLY successful in streamed live games?

That would be the tell-tale sign.

Mostly there is a lot of YouTube video propaganda (right or wrong) about this player - describing him as a cheater. There are no 5-hour long videos showing him "not" cheating.

So if you research the subject you will only be subjected to pro-cheating opinions. 5 hours or 8 hours of this subject with math as evidence can lead anyone to believe this player is cheating (right or wrong).

So far it is just opinions and feelings.

Good luck !

Math is not "opinions" or "feelings". Mike had a winrate on the stream around twice that of online superuser "Potripper", which in itself is pretty conclusive evidence, that cheating took place. Poker is not like chess or tennis, where the best player might win every time.

If the Youtubers had not taken this one up, no investigation would have been launched, and the cheating would have been allowed to continue. So we should all be gratefull to the people, who spend time digging into this.

The anger should be directed at the management at Stones, who allowed this to happen for an extended period of time. Even after being alerted by their former employee, they still did not take it serious, which it why she went public with her suspicions in the first place.

 

[DS3]

As has been noted in other threads about the Stones scandal (in the news section) Postle cannot possibly have been cheating on his own (if it is proven as such). Either he was engaged with the casino or casino employees to receive card information.

Finally (as had been suggested already) Stones have now stated they will get an independent third party to look into the matter, which is what they should have done from the outset.

 

[domfudao]

If I believed that there is cheat in online poker.

I would never put money in and invest my time in it.

 

[Poker_Mike]

Math is not "opinions" or "feelings". Mike had a winrate on the stream around twice that of online superuser "Potripper", which in itself is pretty conclusive evidence, that cheating took place. Poker is not like chess or tennis, where the best player might win every time.

If the Youtubers had not taken this one up, no investigation would have been launched, and the cheating would have been allowed to continue. So we should all be gratefull to the people, who spend time digging into this.

The anger should be directed at the management at Stones, who allowed this to happen for an extended period of time. Even after being alerted by their former employee, they still did not take it serious, which it why she went public with her suspicions in the first place.

As you know these accusations are very very serious.

Are you in favor of the player doing prison time for this circumstantial evidence? And I mean this on a serious level.

Don't forget there are 100+ cameras in poker rooms covering every angle of most of the players in the room. Not to mention the streaming camera at this particular table.

So if they delay the stream by say 15-minutes then he will stop winning?

Pay attention to the "other" side of the math.....he only wins at this streaming table? He doesn't have "reads" like this at other tables and games? And, I don't know the answer to that....but the poker room and management know.

Good luck !

 

[fundiver199]

Are you in favor of the player doing prison time for this circumstantial evidence? And I mean this on a serious level.

That is completely up to the legal system in the US to decide. For me the important thing is, that his cheating has now been exposed, the live stream at Stones has been suspended, and an independent investigation has been launched.

Hopefully this will result in some answers, so that poker players can again feel save playing at live streams, which honestly right now I think, only an idiot would continue to do. Poker players need to know, how this cheating was carried out, and what Stones and other casinos are doing to prevent it from happening again.

 

[fundiver199]

So if they delay the stream by say 15-minutes then he will stop winning?

The stream was already delayed by 30 minutes, which all streams are for very obvious reasons. However the information about players cards is available in real time, if you find a way to read it electronically, or get assistance from someone working at the casino.

 

[Newzooozooo]

Hi.
Obviously, every poker player runs the risk of being cheated. Nobody is safe from this. But I believe that our security depends first and foremost on ourselves. So we just need to be careful and play poker only on sites with a good reputation.
Good luck.

 

[Pwohar43]

If he is cheating he needs to be removed. How he is doing it needs to be looked at,
But if it was just sour grapes how unfair would that be?
We need to feel secure when we play that it’s fair to all, players should not have to catch cheating? The casinos should have that as a priority as well as online sites

 

[JJP]

"I caught a hanger sarge ! "

As a poker player you have to always be aware of everything going on at the table whether in a live game or online. Postle had some clear give aways that something was up, for example staring at his crotch during big hands. Anytime there is money changing hands, there will be people trying to scam ! Stay aware, and always get up and walk away from the game if you feel something is up

 

[DS3]

I think the issue always, when everyone was piling on Mike Postle (rightly or wrongly remains to be seen) was if he was cheating, that meant the casino operations had been compromised.

That was the point everyone should have been primarily concerned with rather than an individual (who would not have been able to pull anything off on his own).

The problem was Stones - if reports are correct- decided to ignore the first accusations, and then was slow to react when the matter got traction within the poker community.

This is the inherent problem with 'electronic' infrastructures within gambling - there will always be efforts to hack the system (whether basic - someone relaying information-or sophisticated).

I have never been 100% comfortable with on-line play/sites, never been comfortable with RNGs and the supervision/regulation of RNGs. I think it always best to retain a healthy dose of skepticism - there is no downside to constantly being vigilant!

 

[Serjo600]

very often, the exception of kilo fields at the wsop

 

[NCDaddy]

The old addage of "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying" can be applied in all aspects of life. You know it happens at live tables, in the work place, etc.....can't always prove it though. Only way to combat it is to use your intuition to play/live against it. I've played in several home games where I suspected it. I finished my session and simply did not accept any further invites to those games.

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

Have not yet come up with a method 100% effective against fraud.

Yes, I wish there was a way.

 

[77ecos]

if complicated everything is true live we think we are sure of things like that

 

[Poker_Mike]

That is completely up to the legal system in the US to decide. For me the important thing is, that his cheating has now been exposed, the live stream at Stones has been suspended, and an independent investigation has been launched.

Hopefully this will result in some answers, so that poker players can again feel save playing at live streams, which honestly right now I think, only an idiot would continue to do. Poker players need to know, how this cheating was carried out, and what Stones and other casinos are doing to prevent it from happening again.

I agree that this is a legal question.

Honestly it seems like the poker community has already passed judgement and there is very little that the player (defendant) can say or do to change their minds.

Good luck !

 

[Poker_Mike]

The stream was already delayed by 30 minutes, which all streams are for very obvious reasons. However the information about players cards is available in real time, if you find a way to read it electronically, or get assistance from someone working at the casino.

Thank you for your answer.

I was not aware.

So, if he WAS tapping into the software to be aware of other players' hole cards then he doesn't really "need" a casino employee's help right?

Good luck !

 

[fundiver199]

So, if he WAS tapping into the software to be aware of other players' hole cards then he doesn't really "need" a casino employee's help right?

In theory this could be a "one man job". However people with much more knowledge about RFID technology than me are sceptical, it can easily be hacked. They say, that maybe a player could read the cards of his neighbor at the table, but information would be confusing and incomplete.

Also if someone found a way to do this, then why limit himself to a particular local 1/3 and 2/5 stream? The RFID system used by Stones is exactly the same as that used in the WSOP main event and other big tournaments, where millions of dollars are at stake. So why not go much bigger? Or move around to attract less attention. The only reason to stay in the same local 1/3 cash game, is, that this is the place, where he got inside assistance.

And while the technology at Stones is the same as everywhere else, the same is not the case with the safety precautions taken by the casino to prevent RFID information from being passed on to a player in real time. In other casinos the editing room, to which RFID data is transmitted, is locked, and there might be a requirement of two persons always being there in random alternating shifts. WSOP even use an armed guard outside the room. But at Stones it was just a local 1/3 or 2/5 stream, so nobody apparently took the issue of safety serious.

 

[Richard Grant]

A certain level of thinking, high on psychopathy scale, sees "cheating" as another part of your skill set.

The whole poker construct of "shark" and "fish" is relationship between predator and prey. The reality is that the difference between normal exploitative edges in poker, and "cheating" are far ethically closer than people like to imagine.

Poker regs, for example, constantly whinging about companies like pokerstars "exploiting" them, when that is exactly what they do all day. Its only unfair when its to their disadvantage

 

[SightUnseen]

Sadly cheating has been happening in this great game we call poker since the cowboy days and will continue into eternity due to money being involved and people only wanting to win. This great game has the most absurd amount of variance and one does not sustain a winrate as he did by playing that range of hands and making those kinds of plays constantly without cheating. All we can do is find a safe and secure place to play and avoid shady players. Good luck on the felt.

 

[kleopatra123]

I believe that everywhere is some player who are cheating, but i think it is really hard to prove. Every poker player runs the risk of being cheated.layingba
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