5/10 limit and 1/2 no limit

[F Paulsson]

Just an addendum from someone who's played a LOT of 5/10 limit: It's not a cakewalk to beat the game. It's not that the players are that great - they're not - it's that the rake comes out to such ridiculous amounts that the only people consistently beating 5/10 are the experts.

Let me put it this way: For you to break even at a 5/10 table, the rest of the table must still lose $150 per 100 hands, i.e. be -3BB/100. On average.

If there's even ONE other winning player there, the remaining four players must lose almost 4BB/100 for you to break even.

And, here comes the sucky part, there are a lot of semiprofessional regulars who do nothing but play 5/10. They're decent TAGs, who, sadly, do not lose anywhere near enough for the 5/10 games (at pokerstars, at least) to be profitable.

I've given up on 5/10 at Stars. There aren't enough fish to make up for the loss in rake, making it virtually a zero-sum game to play. I'm not good enough to beat it for any real amount of money, so I'm back to playing 3/6. Most likely I will skip 5/10 altogether and move up to 10/20 or 15/30 when I'm rolled for it.

 

[TurnipHead]

...the rake comes out to such ridiculous amounts that the only people consistently beating 5/10 are the experts.

Let me put it this way: For you to break even at a 5/10 table, the rest of the table must still lose $150 per 100 hands, i.e. be -3BB/100. On average.

If there's even ONE other winning player there, the remaining four players must lose almost 4BB/100 for you to break even.

Ah, if Paulsson's sums are correct, then out of all the posts that are against the idea, this seems to be the strongest one for steering clear. Blimey Storm, you still wanna do this!?

 

[robwhufc]

Storm, i'm glad you are reading and taking note of the replies, because you've got some really good ones here.

I didn't respond to your "i'm quitting online poker" post, because i've seen these posts over and over, and i thought, "yeah right, i give him a couple of days before he's back" and i'd have probably pissed you off with my response - people dont seem to appreciate my bluntness a lot of the time!

I'll give you my views on your situation. You seem like a really nice bloke, quite an emotional guy (your posts about how much you love your job for example), and clearly you got very upset and downhearted when you lost $1K this week. I do share a lot of the poster's unease though and i'll tell you why;

- $4K IS a lot of money, especially with a baby on the way. You're a family man so you know, there ISN'T any such thing as spare money when you've got kids.

- You haven't got much self control. Losing $1K in one day takes some doing, you must have been chasing your losses over and over again, and if you are truthful to yourself you will know that you were playing worse and worse the longer your session went on. You need to be able to turn the computer off - don't reload if you are stacked by a bad beat, just turn your pc off and walk away (i tend to pull the powercord out).

- You aren't as good a player as you think you are. Good players dont constantly re-deposit, they constantly cash out. I'm not the best, not by a long way, but i've deposited twice (like smd) since i started playing over 2 years ago. $100 at Littlewoods poker which lasted about 2 days (i didn't even know hand rankings when i started), and a $100 deposit to Paradise Poker, from which i've taken out over $5K and have got over $1K in play.

I'd read FP's post carefully, because I was going to type the same thing. You seem to be tackling poker from the hardest possible end. If you're multi-tabling, you're losing an edge - read John Vorhaus' Killer poker online 1 & 2 when you are on your break. See how much effort he takes in getting notes on players (you aren't doing that, not if you are playing 4-8 tables). See how much effort he takes in picking the games to play, picking the opponents to play against. That's where you make your money, from the bad play of others. I don't see where your edge is, as FP said, you're just going to be pushing money round a table with a number of similar players, with FT or P'stars getting their little cut every pot.

- You haven't got a plan. There are no targets, no indication of WHY you are depositing, what you are looking to get out of it.

I will agree with you on a number of points though. I've never been able to get excited about 25nl. Betting 50 cents, winning pots of $2, there's just no adreniline there. I'm not a bankroll management guy either. I play better at higher levels, because i'm just not motivated by winning a $5 Sng with a first prize of $18.

I think subconciously you know this is a bad idea, which is why you posted this thread. I'd like you to give $3K to your wife, because even if you say you have her support, i cant really believe that you do. Use the other $1k to play, but DONT deposit it all at one time. Just deposit how much you need to play one session, which will make it harder to reload if you are tilting. And finally, stick to SnG's, they are perfect for someone with tilt issues as they have limited losses, and they are much easier (in my opinion) to consistently beat than cash games. But most important, try and start having fun again.

 

[Debi]

Brian when you first came to the forum you weren't playing much online - it was a while before you finally deposited on stars and started playing again. I fear this is a cycle you will continue unless you change the way you approach your game.

I agree with AG and Sticker on the things they have said. But honestly - rather than suggest you drop to a lower limit in cash I suggest you try focusing on sng's and mtt's. I think no matter what limit you choose to play in cash that you are going to find yourself back where you are now at some point. If you are successful playing cash live then continue to do that. Online cash games are not working for you.

I am similar to you as far as bankroll goes - I can deposit when I want to and don't really have to mind the losses. But I do limit them so that I don't become uncomfortable with them. I would rather put more money towards doing things with my husband and planning for our future. So I don't play cash games unless it is with people from here for entertainment. I realize you are a better player than I am - but you are not better disciplined.

However it is good that you are taking time with this decision. Whatever you decide - I truly wish you luck with it.

 

[yoshi123]

I am in the exact same boat.

Great live results, but live games not nearby.

So I go online.

Deposit $1200. Hit the 5/10. Doh! I know, the bankroll isn't right, but being a 'live' player predominantly I'm used to setting my budget for the night, playing it and then going home.

Some turbulent times...but within 30 days I'm at $9048.

Then the downswing.

I'm now -$600

So I quit/play lower stakes to iron out the bugs in my game/study my hand histories/read Sklansky.

I'm stepping down to the 2/4 now....and see what happens.

Weirdly, I am withdrawing my cash after each session. This keeps it like a 'casino' situation and stops me doing the every-day-battle thing.

 

[Swanny]

- You aren't as good a player as you think you are. Good players dont constantly re-deposit, they constantly cash out. I'm not the best, not by a long way, but i've deposited twice (like smd) since i started playing over 2 years ago. $100 at Littlewoods poker which lasted about 2 days (i didn't even know hand rankings when i started), and a $100 deposit to Paradise Poker, from which i've taken out over $5K and have got over $1K in play.

Storm, I think alot of the others have covered anything I might want to add. But what Rob posted here really pops into my head. You might want to read Alan Schoonmaker's new Book "Your Worst Poker Enemy" during your time off. It's a poker psych book and you may find some of it just a bunch of hooie, but there is alot in there that just might get you thinking about things you haven't thought about before.

 

[stormswa]

thanks everyone for the input, much appriciated.

Rob, dont ever be worried about hurting my feelings be as blunt as you want with me, Im a big boy I can take it.

there were a lot of people that gave great points in this thread, If I multi quote them all it would take a whole page so in general just wanted to thank everyone.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

I have a few things to add here that haven't been brought up. You say that $4000 isn't too much to miss for you; that you are taking time off to study and refresh; and that you are going to start playing at higher limits when you come back. You also say that you are not getting enough action at lower limits; that you have to multi table to get that. You also have a problem with tilting. And that you have no idea of how much you have deposited and lost.

All of this stuff is a recipe for a big time personal disaster. You are taking money from one fund to play poker. Even though it's for a buyin to the wsop it's still taking money you don't have extra. Unless you have a trust fund availiable to you you never have money that can be easily missed. What would you do if you got injured and were unable to work? (taken from personal experiance.).

I think you are a average player who has had a great run of cards at this time. But now you have hit the wall that is always out there for poker players and you are not thinking clearly. You say that you have major leaks in your game.; no bankroll management ability; a major tilt problem; and are going to fix this by taking two months off and coming back with even more money. Please rethink this.

You need to give serious thought to your addiction to the big win high. This is what it sounds like you are chasing. You were getting that little fix everyday for some time. And now it's dried up. I would take some serious time off to see if you can live without playing poker. Put away the books, turn off the TV, and don't go to any poker sites. If you can do this for the same 2 months without jonesing then I take back what I say here. But from what you are saying it sounds like you can't. And that is a problem. You need to take the time to regroup and see what there is without poker.

 

[eaglelite]

Hey I say GOOD LUCK in what ever you decide in the end it is up to you

 

[Effexor]

I dont mind answering but really the answers have no bearing on what I want to do.

1. lost some money.
2. No idea because I would just deposit money to play with no regard to bankroll.
3. mix of different levels, usually mimicing my live play limits which are stated in the title here.

First off I apologize for the late response. This is already my 4th attempt. I've had things typed out then just deleted them fearing I came across poorly. I don't want to offend you.

These questions have a direct bearing on your plan, and here in lies the problem. You don't see that. For whatever reason, be it ego or delusion or a compulsion I don't know, but the reality is that you lose consistently. Being a losing player online, and depositing more money doesn't seem like a wise decision. I'd much rather take a far more conservative approach. Start with $100 and work with that.

I've played live 1/2 NL, and generally speaking the play that I've seen mimics the micro limits online. Lets face it, 1/2NL IS the micro level live. I really don't think you can compare 1/2NL live vs 1/2NL online.

You keep saying that you are a really good player. That may or may not be the case, but really good players don't have to constantly deposit. I've never claimed to be all that great, but I'm still on my first deposit a year+ later. What I think is happening is that you have the knowledge but for whatever reasons are unable to apply it and use it effectively. It's like you are that #1 draft pick that has plenty of potential but gets cut 2 years later because of not producing results.

Just to echo some of the other responses. Bankroll management is not your problem, there's something underlying that is preventing you from maintaining a proper BR. Here's a quote I found that applies:

To master poker and make it profitable, you must first master patience and discipline, as a lack of either is a sure disaster regardless of all other talents, or lucky streaks.​

-- Freddie Gasperian


I hope you get things straightened out, and as cheaply as possible.

​

 

[pokernut]

Storm--

I've been on vacation and away from the forum for a while so I have no idea what recently happened to you other then what you said earlier in this thread that you lost some money. The details of what happened really are none of my business but don't let them effect a decision such as this.

I don't have much to add from what others have said in here, but I do have a few things.

1) Plugging leaks in your game is totally different from jumping up in stakes because you think that your game is more suited playing against other "more thinking" players (if that makes sense). I think that's kind of what you were referring to. If there are indeed leaks in your game, get them fixed before you make this jump if you are indeed going to.

2) Don't make a decision like this based on "losing some money". My advice to you would be to wait a while before making this decision so that the recent incident doesn't have any effect on what you ultimately decide to do.

I just think you need to take all influencing factors that maybe shouldn't be involved in a decision such as this, out of a decision such as this. Just make sure to think everything through before you decide.

 

[jaymfc]

What is really wrong with you storm?
You seem to be like a bull in a china shop with a blindfold on.
No matter what you are posting about there is always an edgy compulsion lingering around you.
Is that what we have here, are you overly compulsive?

my feeling from the start,try some adderal or something (no offense), you have some very good advice from very good people who seem to care about you,i care about people and i care about you too. you are fighting very hard not to believe what they are telling you. you are your own man, do what you feel is right , good luck storm.


p.s nothing wrong with saving extra money for a time in future when it may not be extra. life changes faster than a poker game .

 

[stormswa]

I have a few things to add here that haven't been brought up. You say that $4000 isn't too much to miss for you; that you are taking time off to study and refresh; and that you are going to start playing at higher limits when you come back. You also say that you are not getting enough action at lower limits; that you have to multi table to get that. You also have a problem with tilting. And that you have no idea of how much you have deposited and lost.

All of this stuff is a recipe for a big time personal disaster. You are taking money from one fund to play poker. Even though it's for a buyin to the WSOP it's still taking money you don't have extra. Unless you have a trust fund availiable to you you never have money that can be easily missed. What would you do if you got injured and were unable to work? (taken from personal experiance.).

I think you are a average player who has had a great run of cards at this time. But now you have hit the wall that is always out there for poker players and you are not thinking clearly. You say that you have major leaks in your game.; no bankroll management ability; a major tilt problem; and are going to fix this by taking two months off and coming back with even more money. Please rethink this.

You need to give serious thought to your addiction to the big win high. This is what it sounds like you are chasing. You were getting that little fix everyday for some time. And now it's dried up. I would take some serious time off to see if you can live without playing poker. Put away the books, turn off the TV, and don't go to any poker sites. If you can do this for the same 2 months without jonesing then I take back what I say here. But from what you are saying it sounds like you can't. And that is a problem. You need to take the time to regroup and see what there is without poker.

taking 2 months off poker is not big deal, I have done it before. I mean even though I can not deposit on stars I could always put money on full tilt but I wont because I want these 2 months off.

 

[stormswa]

this whole thread has prompted my new user title.

 

[diamond_06_06]

Wow, judging from these responses there seem to be alot of good hearted and genuine people afiliated with this site... good job

 

[stormswa]

Wow, judging from these responses there seem to be alot of good hearted and genuine people afiliated with this site... good job

you got to realize we have been around eachother for a long long long time which is why I post stuff like this I know I will get honest responses from people. BUT it was still a real big lapse in my judgement to even concider this which is why I picked this title for myself.

 

[stormswa]

well im going to hear crap about this but thought Id let you know anyway so if you see me on full tilt you know why. I was all ready to not play poker but just realized I only have about 1 1/2 month to clear my full tilt bonus. If it was only like -$100 I would not care but its $500 pending and hate just letting it expire. So what im going to do is put 10k on and play 100/200 NL...........


just kidding,


just going to put some on and play $10NL to try to grind out the bonus. I want to take at least a month off though so I wont do it till end of next month.

 

[dj11]

Am I the only one who thinks this is a terrible idea?

nope.

 

[dj11]

I totally agree with this. But here's a couple more points:

1) I've seen Storm say in effect "The money doesn't matter" a few times. If that's true, then the stakes level shouldn't matter either. Whether it's .01/.02 or 100/200, it shouldn't matter if the money doesn't. When Storm says $25NL is "not enjoyable", I think he means the wins aren't large enough so he has to open more tables to win more money but loses his cognitive edge that way. If the money didn't matter, then $25NL WOULD be just as enjoyable.

2) He says his thought process at lower limits is "just too much". I think he misunderstands "too much" as being "different". To be a good overall poker player, one must be able to feel comfortable at ANY stakes within their bankroll and different stakes take different approaches. What if he loses $3900 of his $4k and has to play on a $100 BR? Is he going to give up the game since he is not comfortable playing the lower stakes? Or just let his game rot while he saves his money again to play higher stakes? To me, "comfort" equals "winning". Even though he says he can "beat the lower stakes", I think his uncomfortability is in his inconsistent winning at these stakes. And that's a bad feeling to take with you to the higher stakes.

Storm, sorry to be blunt here. But when you spill your life like this here on the forum, you have to expect to get hammered by folks who disagree. You had to have learned this after the last announcement you made about using your wife's account to avoid railers. I still hope it all works out for you.

If the money really doesn't matter, he should be able to fix the leaks at the lowest levels, freerolls, and play money.

But it does matter, and Aliens comments generally hit the nails right on the head.

 

[stormswa]

If the money really doesn't matter, he should be able to fix the leaks at the lowest levels, freerolls, and play money.

But it does matter, and Aliens comments generally hit the nails right on the head.

we are beyond this point, it was dumb idea, idot idea.

 

[arcbishop]

im with gord lol

 

[Wlokos]

#7 is here!

If you don't have the discipline to beat the lower games, it's a pretty safe bet that you won't have the discipline or the skills to beat the higher games.

 

[stormswa]

#7 is here!

If you don't have the discipline to beat the lower games, it's a pretty safe bet that you won't have the discipline or the skills to beat the higher games.

thanks for digging up this old thread.....

 

[evny]

i didn't take the time to read all the replies... but....

1/2 live is a joke... its comparable in skill to prob 25NL online... maybe worse...

if the money is no problem, i don't see what the problem is in just depositing once and depositing a safe bankroll for the lvl you want to play (1/2 or whatever)... i'm kinda like you i guess when i say if i lose online the money really doesn't affect me at all... but that doesn't mean i'll play above my roll... above my skill lvl, bust and redeposit just cuz i can... i like the fact that i've made one deposit years ago and that was the last one...

it pains me when i play at a lvl below where i *think* i should be... but fact is... if i'm not winning as much as i *should* be... theres no one to blame but myself... and i keep grinding it out at the lower lvls and trying to find my leaks...

and if you are losing... then maybe you need to realize that you aren't as good as you think you are... i think all of us players have made that self-realization over and over again...

also if you don't have proper bankroll management you mite as well never play online...

 

[evny]

oops... also didn't realize this thread was from 2 months ago... i hope things have gone swimmingly for you since!