Your own top 5 tips for beating micros?

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WiZZiM

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err well i play the 25nl 6 max, so for me, im facing lots of nit regs and lots of fish..

top 5 tips?

1.use position, it really is your best friend
2.stay aggressive, pound the regs with bets and raises and value bet the fish.
3.dont run too many huge bluffs, sure semi bluff the flop or whatever, but if you get called, time to shutdown. they will more than likely just call you down with second pair. im all for double barrelling and stuff like that, i dont think triple barreling would be too wise though..
4.for me, it pays to be loose. i dont think standard abc tight aggressive will work for a decent rate these days, perhaps im wrong.
at the 6max i notice the regs are runnig really tight at like 15-20vpip, i run usualy at minimum 25-30. i guess i can play so loose as i really feel comfortable playing postflop against these guys. perhaps not wise for a novice player...
5. write notes, who will pay off big bets, who folds to pressure etc.. these are invaluable to success at any level.
 
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I don't have a top 5, but the most important to me is:

- Know who your playing against! If your opponent raises all in 40-50% of the time, you're gambling against luck, get out of that table because you can't use anything against luck. Make sure you're on a table with people who "somewhat" know how to play, and play seriously as if the table were worth more. You can win off good strategy against that, rather than against pure luck.
 
Leo 50

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1- Patience!! Wait it out.
If you are not using BRM to buyin with a good bankroll behind you, you shouldn't be playing anyway.
Wait for those hands to make your moves.

2 - NO Bluffing!!
You will get called by someone who has nothing but is on a draw and they might hit it.

3- Table selection
Pick the right table for you.
Watch a table before you join, even if it means sitting on a waiting list.
Get some insight into who is playing and how they are playing BEFORE you drop your money down

4- Take Notes
Once you are sitting down, take notes.
Did they raise with a small pay, limp with a big pair.
Do they splash a lot of chips with a big stack or do they try and trap?
Do they 'fish' for the gutshot or flush?
Even when you fold PAY ATTENTION.

5 - Don't play tired or Drunk
If you are not ready to play then DON'T.
Poker can be very hard.
Decisions have to be made quickly and if you are too tired or worse, too drunk, then just donate the money
(I can provide you my FTP ID just send the transfer)
 
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ComplexPlaya

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Tighter than 15/8

?

That is way too tight sorry, that's being a nit. My stats at 20NL for this month when I really started improving my game and made most of the money
are 24/20 with a win-rate of 10bb/100 over 12K hands.

Considering all the 28K hands I've played at 20NL, they're 24/18 so close.

Are you calling too much as well? Most nits I've seen take so long to enter a hand that when they do, they're pretty much committed to it all the way once they get TP or even less.
 
IcyBlueAce

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I don't have a top 5, but the most important to me is:

- Know who your playing against! If your opponent raises all in 40-50% of the time, you're gambling against luck, get out of that table because you can't use anything against luck. Make sure you're on a table with people who "somewhat" know how to play, and play seriously as if the table were worth more. You can win off good strategy against that, rather than against pure luck.

I think I just became retarded by reading this.:eek:
 
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That is way too tight sorry, that's being a nit. My stats at 20NL for this month when I really started improving my game and made most of the money
are 24/20 with a win-rate of 10bb/100 over 12K hands.

Considering all the 28K hands I've played at 20NL, they're 24/18 so close.

Are you calling too much as well? Most nits I've seen take so long to enter a hand that when they do, they're pretty much committed to it all the way once they get TP or even less.


Are you talking FR or 6-Max? Because they are different animals.

Also- as far as good, decent, bad players it all depends on the stakes.

The reason that "good" players play at higher stakes is because they can beat them, obviously. You could be a good, maybe even expert 100nl player and be a bad 1000nl player.

So if you are a "good" microstakes player then you should play a fairly basic strategy. This will make you a pretty good 10nl player, but not necessarily a good 100nl player.

The quality of a player is subject to the stake level they play at. But if someone can beat 100nl, they can beat 10nl- because they understand how to bet for value and how to exploit their opponents.

The micros are great places to learn poker and if you have a solid win rate then you can eventually move up to the next buy in amount, afterall no one wants to play the micros forever.

Eventually every player will hit their cap of being "good" at their stake. Some make it to the nosebleeds and crush the game (crush meaning like 3-4bb/100 hands). Most will never play 100,000nl and win.

But Phil Ivey, Durr, Patrick Antonius, and a number of other players could ALL play at the micros and beat that game.

So if you think you can compete with top quality players (or even "good" players at three levels above you) and you are losing in the micros then you are wrong.
 
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ComplexPlaya

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Are you talking FR or 6-Max? Because they are different animals.

Also- as far as good, decent, bad players it all depends on the stakes.

The reason that "good" players play at higher stakes is because they can beat them, obviously. You could be a good, maybe even expert 100nl player and be a bad 1000nl player.

So if you are a "good" microstakes player then you should play a fairly basic strategy. This will make you a pretty good 10nl player, but not necessarily a good 100nl player.

The quality of a player is subject to the stake level they play at. But if someone can beat 100nl, they can beat 10nl- because they understand how to bet for value and how to exploit their opponents.

The micros are great places to learn poker and if you have a solid win rate then you can eventually move up to the next buy in amount, afterall no one wants to play the micros forever.

Eventually every player will hit their cap of being "good" at their stake. Some make it to the nosebleeds and crush the game (crush meaning like 3-4bb/100 hands). Most will never play 100,000nl and win.

But Phil Ivey, Durr, Patrick Antonius, and a number of other players could ALL play at the micros and beat that game.

So if you think you can compete with top quality players (or even "good" players at three levels above you) and you are losing in the micros then you are wrong.

Well the point to that discussion was an argument on whether a good player would make more money playing piss poor players than more decent ones. I agreed with the guy that said he wouldn't, simply because those players play at stakes that are too low for the win to be more.

So I'm not sure we were talking about the same thing here...
 
Poker Orifice

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I can guarantee that you are wildly wrong.

Poker is not a game of macho "I can beat the best." The edges of a good player over a decent player are tiny, and it becomes very difficult to beat the rake.

Nobody makes money at poker until bad players start shipping them easy cash. That's why table selection is one of the most important factors in winning.

You're obviously not understanding what I'm saying.... & I don't expect you to (read above... "they typically play $1 & $2 mtt &/or 2nl" )
 
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KyleJRM

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Then feel free to explain it.

Why would good poker players do better against a higher quality of competition than they would against poorer competition?
 
IcyBlueAce

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Then feel free to explain it.

Why would good poker players do better against a higher quality of competition than they would against poorer competition?

Why does a 2nd grader do poorly in class, then gets moved up a grade (or two) then does amazing?

Bordom, not enough challenge.

Fact.
 
KyleJRM

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Why does a 2nd grader do poorly in class, then gets moved up a grade (or two) then does amazing?

Bordom, not enough challenge.

Fact.

Fair point. Although I would submit that most people who can't stay disciplined because of boredom have a discipline problem. But for a small percentage of players, that's probably true.

*Assuming they are trying to win,* why would a good player not do best against the worst players?
 
IcyBlueAce

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Fair point. Although I would submit that most people who can't stay disciplined because of boredom have a discipline problem. But for a small percentage of players, that's probably true.

*Assuming they are trying to win,* why would a good player not do best against the worst players?

Eh, again it would have to follow under boredom and/or the reward for the success.

Honestly, sure, Durrrr and any other pro COULD beat the micro stakes, but they would have to have some sort of motivation to do so.. Maybe a big prop bet or something against another pro and/or players.

I get what your both saying, your both right in your own ways.

Of course thats just my opinion.
 
KyleJRM

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Eh, again it would have to follow under boredom and/or the reward for the success.

Honestly, sure, Durrrr and any other pro COULD beat the micro stakes, but they would have to have some sort of motivation to do so.. Maybe a big prop bet or something against another pro and/or players.

I get what your both saying, your both right in your own ways.

Of course thats just my opinion.


Two different questions are being addressed here, and let's make it clear which we are talking about.

Would very good players do better at higher stakes than lower stakes?

Would very good players do better against average opponents than very bad opponents, regardless of stakes? (There are bad players at *every* level)
 
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I think those are really good questions and it probably comes from what you are using as a gauge of success.

Are you using winrate(bb/100 hands) or $/hour?

Obviously pros make more $/hour at higher stakes against what is most likely better competition. But do they have as high of a winrate?

There are a number of players at the micro's who pull off 10+bb/100 hands. That is a pretty super solid winrate. Nothing to complain about at all, if you could do that at 200NL you would be an outstanding player.
Their $/hour sucks though. 10bb/100 hands, playing 400 hands an hour is like $4/hour.

But if you do 10bb/100 you move up to the next stake where you may only get 5-6bb/100, but have a higher $/hour.

So if a good microstakes player can get 10bb/100, and a good pro gets 5bb/100 at higher stakes it stands to reason that if the same superbad players were at higher stakes the pros would make more $/hour.

It all comes down to adjusting to your opponents, if people call to much value bet, if people fold to much bluff more. Weak opponents play a transparent and (often) singularly dimensioned game. When they do that exploit it.

Yeah you have a lower % chance of winning in a multiway pot, but there should be more $ in the pot so you dont have to win them as often. So don't blame "luck" for getting a bad beat, its a numbers game. If you get your money in when you are a 55% favorite over the course of several thousands of hands you will come out ahead.

In general it seems like the swings at micro's are worse, probably because people are more willing to get it all in with bizarre stuff that puts you in a crappy position. But higher variance does not mean lower returns on investment.

(This is not a perfect allegory for poker- but its what I do so I'm familiar with the subject matter) The stock market (S&P500) is substantially more volatile than the market for bonds and CD's, but the rate of return on the stock market has outpaced both of those by well over 7% on average over the last 50 years- so while it requires more tolerance for risk (higher proportional bankroll) for the micros the ROI should still be good.

But thats probably been a pretty good derailing of a very well intended thread- We should all be able to agree that the Microstakes are beatable. We should all also be able to agree that Tight Aggressive play and BRM are the keys to beating them. We can probably all also agree that the microstakes suck and that if we all had the appropriate bankroll and skill level we would not be playing there because EVERYONE wants the opportunity to move up in stakes and play for more serious money.
 
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IcyBlueAce

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Two different questions are being addressed here, and let's make it clear which we are talking about.

Would very good players do better at higher stakes than lower stakes?

Would very good players do better against average opponents than very bad opponents, regardless of stakes? (There are bad players at *every* level)

Well my answer remains the same for both questions really. No real right or wrong answer, it just depends on the person and the interest. For some its one way, for others its the other, and some even both.

The post above makes a lot of sense too, your getting into questions that start to get into a complicated answer. Not all people are the same, I can't see there being only one correct answer for your questions.
 
Elie_Yammine

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why do bad players suck?because every hand can win in poker!even 2-7o against AA...But that doesn't mean that he wasn't extremely lucky when he hit 2 pairs or that he played right!and that doesn't mean that he can't get lucky every single time even though the odds are stacked against him!

In fact, his real bad play rewarded him! since he doesn't know about odds and doesn't know that he shouldn't call all in with this crap, he does so and might beat your huge hand with a hand he shouldn't have been in in the first place.Just because he does not understand hand strength and he'd rather be playing lotto because seim-bluffing and pot odds implied odds and position are 2 difficult concepts for him to grasp and he can still iwn!

That's why many players play far better against better players, because better players understand that their mid-pair doesn't mean shit against an even minimal raise and will fold it! Because good players know what you are representing and you might know what they're representing but must now think if they have the cards they want you to think he has!

Now, isn't that much more entertaining than watching your hand everytime and hoping you hit the flop?isn't guessing what the other player has and trying to make them lay it down if u sense weakness and hesitation much better than praying for luck and hitting the nuts and taking cash?He might have TPTK but the prospect that you might have a flush(regardless of having it or not) might make him lay that down if it's played good...and u keep wondering whether it was a bluff and a bad lay-down or whether you made the right move!

That's real poker!READS that minimize lotto play and add good rational play!You lose when you read bad and win when you read right(at least most of the time...)!Whole cards come second not first in the play and that's what i meant by skill!there are many things that should be taken into account be them position,previous action, bet sizes, time to act, a player's style etc...that comes into play with good players that know the real mechanics of poker and this just doesn't exist at the micro limits where you play bingo and wait for your cards to hit big before betting big and hoping you won't lose to a bad caller who hits even bigger!
 
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KyleJRM

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Well my answer remains the same for both questions really. No real right or wrong answer, it just depends on the person and the interest. For some its one way, for others its the other, and some even both.

The post above makes a lot of sense too, your getting into questions that start to get into a complicated answer. Not all people are the same, I can't see there being only one correct answer for your questions.


While it's true that not all people are the same, I think we can make safe assumptions for a very large majority of people, even if there may be a few rare exceptions out there.

Some people may well have "trouble" playing against bad players but do fine against good ones.

The vast majority of people who say that are just using it as an excuse to justify why they are losing, when in reality they have a bad mindset (a bad mindset being one that is not conducive to winning money).
 
slycbnew

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This thread derailed somewhere along the way imo, after some very good responses to OP.

Regarding the "omg donks suck, get lucky, and it tilts me" discussion, Geoff and others have suggested an interesting thought, that there maybe are skills/strategies that work against donks. I think a few people have already cited a couple, maybe expanding on that might be useful and responsive to OP, imo.
 
KyleJRM

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This thread derailed somewhere along the way imo, after some very good responses to OP.

Regarding the "omg donks suck, get lucky, and it tilts me" discussion, Geoff and others have suggested an interesting thought, that there maybe are skills/strategies that work against donks. I think a few people have already cited a couple, maybe expanding on that might be useful and responsive to OP, imo.

Beating donks is the easiest freaking thing in the world. I do not understand why people have such a problem with it. I'm willing to accept that there might be a few good players out there who don't get this problem, but the vast majority of people who talk about how frustrating it is to play donks are losing players.

Step 1: Wait for a good hand
Step 2: Wager money that your hand is the best through betting
Step 3: Collect your winnings

Everything else is just Fancy Play Syndrome, and that's a leak. Even if you play at higher stakes against better players, there will still be total donkfish at your table and you need to be prepared to accept all the money they are trying to give you.

It's like showing up at your new job as grade-school football coach and trying to install a zone defense rather than teaching the kids how to put their pads on straight.
 
Theblueduce

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1. BRM
2. Don't enter the pot unless you think you have the best hand (folding most of the time)
3. Raise or fold concept
4. Limp only from LP and only if 2+ players have already limped
5. Understanding posiion and knowing how to use it
 
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ComplexPlaya

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Beating donks is the easiest freaking thing in the world. I do not understand why people have such a problem with it. I'm willing to accept that there might be a few good players out there who don't get this problem, but the vast majority of people who talk about how frustrating it is to play donks are losing players.

Step 1: Wait for a good hand
Step 2: Wager money that your hand is the best through betting
Step 3: Collect your winnings

Everything else is just Fancy Play Syndrome, and that's a leak. Even if you play at higher stakes against better players, there will still be total donkfish at your table and you need to be prepared to accept all the money they are trying to give you.

It's like showing up at your new job as grade-school football coach and trying to install a zone defense rather than teaching the kids how to put their pads on straight.

I know it's hard to understand in principle, but it just happens. I'm just starting to kick off FPS against donks, isn't working entirely but I'm sure I stopped spewing quite a few $. Hope it will work out, only started consciously telling me this is a donk don't cbet or bluff at him a couple of days ago lol

The hard part I guess is completely shifting what would normally be good play in the space of seconds sometimes. That's why you have to play close attention to everyone at your table(s)
 
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ComplexPlaya

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1. BRM
2. Don't enter the pot unless you think you have the best hand (folding most of the time)
3. Raise or fold concept
4. Limp only from LP and only if 2+ players have already limped
5. Understanding posiion and knowing how to use it

Hmm I'm sorry but I think some of this is bad advice for micros, or any stake, namely 2-4

2. What about implied odds? Set mining? That's way oversimplifying things I think.

3. You can do plentry of calls IP with good hands, or not-so-good hands depending on the villain, betting patterns etc.

4. Why would you limp, it's much more profitable to iso-raise all the limpers and steal the pot right there or after cbetting the flop, sometimes with ATC. Now if you have calling stations limping before you sure just call with some hands and implied odds. You talk about understanding position in 5, well raising big / ATC in position is a big part of that...

I hope you don't mind, just a different opinion...
 
KyleJRM

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I know it's hard to understand in principle, but it just happens. I'm just starting to kick off FPS against donks, isn't working entirely but I'm sure I stopped spewing quite a few $. Hope it will work out, only started consciously telling me this is a donk don't cbet or bluff at him a couple of days ago lol

The hard part I guess is completely shifting what would normally be good play in the space of seconds sometimes. That's why you have to play close attention to everyone at your table(s)

Value-betting should be the bread-and-butter of your game against anyway. Against good players and at higher levels, you mix in some fancier plays to keep them guessing, but you should still be doing a ton of value betting. Fancy plays are the side dish, value betting is the main course.
 
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