Winrate @ 2NL

honeycrush

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Would anyone be able to give me an idea of a reasonable winrate at 2NL and over what sample size please? I've googled but most sites just say anything that isn't negative is a good winrate! :D

I'm aiming to play 15k hands so if that isn't too small a sample then a suggestion for a good winrate to be able to move up to 5NL would be great. Thanks!
 
micromachine

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5BB/100, which is 10bb/100, is a decent winrate at any stake. Higher winrates are easily possible at 2nl though.

15k will give you some idea but you need 50k+ hands to really know for sure that you are beating a level imo.
 
honeycrush

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5BB/100, which is 10bb/100, is a decent winrate at any stake. Higher winrates are easily possible at 2nl though.

15k will give you some idea but you need 50k+ hands to really know for sure that you are beating a level imo.

Thanks micro. Do you suggest playing at least 50k hands before moving up then or is it okay to move up faster from 2NL because it's the lowest level?
 
JCgrind

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move up as soon as youre rolled to.
10bb/100 is easily achievable at 2NL. over only 15k hands i think some of the better players could easily achieve winrates of 30bb/100+
 
SofaKingCrazy

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move up as soon as youre rolled to.
10bb/100 is easily achievable at 2NL. over only 15k hands i think some of the better players could easily achieve winrates of 30bb/100+

Would you say it's better to move up 1st or use this level to pratice running multiple tables such as 8?

:evil:
 
honeycrush

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move up as soon as youre rolled to.
10bb/100 is easily achievable at 2NL. over only 15k hands i think some of the better players could easily achieve winrates of 30bb/100+

Thanks JC. I'm a long way away from 30bb/100 so perhaps I should stick at 2NL for a while. :eek:
 
honeycrush

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Would you say it's better to move up 1st or use this level to pratice running multiple tables such as 8?

:evil:

Interesting question. I'd like to know the answer to this too. Is it better to work on your game first on one table whilst moving up or to work on playing more tables at the lowest levels so that when you eventually move up your profit will be higher?
 
AlfieAA

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depends on the individual, some people might want to get the perfect bb/100 at a level over a good sample of hands and a certain amount of winnings before they move up.......others like myself, dont really care about bb/100 (although its always good to have a good score) but in all, its not all that important, if you know you are beating the level, regardless of how many hands you have played on it.....if you have the BR for a higher level go for it instead of playing a level you are OVER rolled for.....because that gets pretty boring very quickly, unless money is not the main goal 'at this time'....although when you start beating 2nl and seeing your bankroll increase, you do think about being the next isildur and wanting to move up as fast as possible.......

2nl, 5nl and 10nl are roughly the same in difficulty, so you should play what one you are rolled for, and learn the game on the 1 table......but thats just me, everybody has different goals...gl
 
micromachine

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Thanks JC. I'm a long way away from 30bb/100 so perhaps I should stick at 2NL for a while. :eek:

He's not saying wait until you can beat it for 30bb/100 :)

Move up when you have enough bankroll to do so, you don't have be crushing a level before moving up.

You learn more and get more rakeback at higher stakes so moving up is better than grinding more tables of a level imo. Playing too tables can actually hinder you improvement as a player if you start playing more like a robot.
 
honeycrush

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depends on the individual, some people might want to get the perfect bb/100 at a level over a good sample of hands and a certain amount of winnings before they move up.......others like myself, dont really care about bb/100 (although its always good to have a good score) but in all, its not all that important, if you know you are beating the level, regardless of how many hands you have played on it.....if you have the BR for a higher level go for it instead of playing a level you are OVER rolled for.....because that gets pretty boring very quickly, unless money is not the main goal 'at this time'....although when you start beating 2nl and seeing your bankroll increase, you do think about being the next isildur and wanting to move up as fast as possible.......

2nl, 5nl and 10nl are roughly the same in difficulty, so you should play what one you are rolled for, and learn the game on the 1 table......but thats just me, everybody has different goals...gl

Thanks Alfie. :) Hope you'll still remember us 2NL noobs when you're flying high at 10NL. :p Hope all is going well at the new level.
 
honeycrush

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He's not saying wait until you can beat it for 30bb/100 :)

Move up when you have enough bankroll to do so, you don't have be crushing a level before moving up.

You learn more and get more rakeback at higher stakes so moving up is better than grinding more tables of a level imo. Playing too tables can actually hinder you improvement as a player if you start playing more like a robot.

So the consensus seems to be - move up when you're rolled as long as you're winning at a reasonable rate. Also best to improve your game at one table whilst moving up to start with. Thanks guys! :)
 
micromachine

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Tbh I wouldn't even worry about winning at a reasonable rate. My lifetime graph for 2nl has only a tiny profit over a huge sample and 5nl and 10nl are still slightly losing over a huge sample, but due to RB I am up overall and my roll was over $1000 at one point.

No need to play only one table either, if you are used to 4 tables, maybe drop to 3 or something but no need to go down to one.
 
honeycrush

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Tbh I wouldn't even worry about winning at a reasonable rate. My lifetime graph for 2nl has only a tiny profit over a huge sample and 5nl and 10nl are still slightly losing over a huge sample, but due to RB I am up overall and my roll was over $1000 at one point.

No need to play only one table either, if you are used to 4 tables, maybe drop to 3 or something but no need to go down to one.

Thanks micro - that gives me hope! I had a high winrate for the first month but have had SO many coolers and suckouts in the last week especially with AA and KK aipf that my profits have been decimated. :mad: I'm almost scared when I see AA/KK now! :eek:
 
Logan2

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Would anyone be able to give me an idea of a reasonable winrate at 2NL and over what sample size please? I've googled but most sites just say anything that isn't negative is a good winrate! :D

I'm aiming to play 15k hands so if that isn't too small a sample then a suggestion for a good winrate to be able to move up to 5NL would be great. Thanks!
I move up last month after reaching 22k hands on 2nl, with bb/100 of 15. Start bad on 5nl for the first 2k hands, but been good after that, close to 10bb/100 now and running at 12bb/100 on last 8000 hands on 5nl.

The big difference with 5nl vs 2nl is mostly fish ratio/nits-regs, you will need to table select a little but still lot of good tables.

Gl man.

Edit..
About the 30bb/100

Blackrain i think made 29bb/100 (14.5BB/100) and think that JC beat 2nl on 25bb/100, so really not expect to be above 20bb/100, anything above 10 should be enough to jump.
 
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honeycrush

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Don't be. They're still very strong hands. Just understand that their strength is relative... and fleeting. :)

-

They are beating me up again today. I'm trying to be philosophical about it! :p

I move up last month after reaching 22k hands on 2nl, with bb/100 of 15. Start bad on 5nl for the first 2k hands, but been good after that, close to 10bb/100 now and running at 12bb/100 on last 8000 hands on 5nl.

The big difference with 5nl vs 2nl is mostly fish ratio/nits-regs, you will need to table select a little but still lot of good tables.

Gl man.

Edit..
About the 30bb/100

Blackrain i think made 29bb/100 (14.5BB/100) and think that JC beat 2nl on 25bb/100, so really not expect to be above 20bb/100, anything above 10 should be enough to jump.

Thanks Logan. You've done so well. You're an inspiration!

I feel I'm following BlackRain's advice along with the advice of the very knowledgeable CC peeps here and I've tightened up and have been playing much more nitty recentlly - VPIP 14 / PFR 11 / Agg 2.5 / 3bet% 3.5 - but somehow I was winning when I was playing looser "marginal" hands and losing now. I'm only playing strong hands but they keep getting sucked out on. When I played looser (17/13) there were times (although not often) that I was the one who was delivering the suckouts. Now that never happens. :mad: Is it karma?! :p
 
Logan2

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They are beating me up again today. I'm trying to be philosophical about it! :p

Thanks Logan. You've done so well. You're an inspiration!

I feel I'm following BlackRain's advice along with the advice of the very knowledgeable CC peeps here and I've tightened up and have been playing much more nitty recentlly - VPIP 14 / PFR 11 / Agg 2.5 / 3bet% 3.5- but somehow I was winning when I was playing looser "marginal" hands and losing now. I'm only playing strong hands but they keep getting sucked out on. When I played looser (17/13) there were times (although not often) that I was the one who was delivering the suckouts. Now that never happens. :mad: Is it karma?! :p
I´m just a lucky fish.

Those stats was exactly my stats on 2nl (14/11) but not was chasing to reach that so was my normal stats at the time. Before i jump to 5nl i start to open up more by sugestion and to close the gap ratio and end playing 16/13 for some couple k hands and find myself sudenly losing because was playing to reach a number and not take on consideration my table dinamics and if need to be more tight or lose on specif tables.

So what i did was take a avg for my range vs what i want to reach, so my 14/11 and 16/13 ended 15/12, i stop chasing stats and get back to win, but it does help to improve my agresive from 2 to 3 and my 3b from 3 to 5.

So i think you need to work out what is the best range for you, what hands you feel confortable to openraise, 3b, etc. and after that stop trying to reach the stats and just play. I find myself playing 8/6 on some tables and 18/16 on others but is fine, just stick to your ranges without be so rigid that force to play away from your comfort zone.

I´m sure will comeback to you man, just hang on there.
 
honeycrush

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Thanks Logan. I think you have a really interesting point there. I'm playing Zoom at the moment but when I started I was playing regular tables so could table select.

Everyone says at Zoom you must play tight which is why I've been been working at tightening my starting range. The last 1k hands have been 11/10 but I've still been losing to suckouts etc.

Once I've finished my 15k hands and no doubt lost lots of $$$ :( I will go back to regular tables and try to work on reads and trying to increase the number of tables. Only 5k hands to go. I like to finish what I've started so will finish playing those 15k hands and try not to lose my entire bankroll. :D

PS - Please send some rungood my way!!!
 
Logan2

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run good on your way, but not enough that i stay dry lol
 
JCgrind

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as long as you can play 4 tables, i wouldnt bother to use any level to learn to multitable.

mirco pretty much covered it, but yeah youll learn so much more and improve so much faster the higher up you play, so as soon as your roll can handle it you should imo. more +EV than learning to multitable at a low stake since better skills = more money long term than a few more tables will

then when you get fired from your job and need to make rent, you can learn to mass multitable on 2NL and make mirrons with your new skills from higher stakes :)

ps im 12 tabling while posting here :p multitasking helps with learning to multitable imo.

ftwwwwww
 
SofaKingCrazy

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as long as you can play 4 tables, i wouldnt bother to use any level to learn to multitable.

mirco pretty much covered it, but yeah youll learn so much more and improve so much faster the higher up you play, so as soon as your roll can handle it you should imo. more +EV than learning to multitable at a low stake since better skills = more money long term than a few more tables will

then when you get fired from your job and need to make rent, you can learn to mass multitable on 2NL and make mirrons with your new skills from higher stakes :)

ps im 12 tabling while posting here :p multitasking helps with learning to multitable imo.

ftwwwwww

Thx JC,
I do have a problem with being able to run 4 tables and still have good reads. I will work on that some more.

:evil:
 
JCgrind

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Thx JC,
I do have a problem with being able to run 4 tables and still have good reads. I will work on that some more.

:evil:

most 'reads' you can directly interpret by looking to your hud and comparing stat x with stat y for any given player in their HUD and then comparing that to the norm.

what specific 'reads' do you feel you are missing? slash in what kind of spots do you usually end up tanking? i might be able to help point you in the right direction
 
honeycrush

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as long as you can play 4 tables, i wouldnt bother to use any level to learn to multitable.

mirco pretty much covered it, but yeah youll learn so much more and improve so much faster the higher up you play, so as soon as your roll can handle it you should imo. more +EV than learning to multitable at a low stake since better skills = more money long term than a few more tables will

then when you get fired from your job and need to make rent, you can learn to mass multitable on 2NL and make mirrons with your new skills from higher stakes :)

ps im 12 tabling while posting here :p multitasking helps with learning to multitable imo.

ftwwwwww

Thanks JC. Really appreciate your input.

Wow - I'm amazed you can 12-table and still post on CC. :adore: If I can get to 4 tables whilst being able to pay attention to my HUD I will be absolutely ecstatic! :icon_boun
 
mrmonkey

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Winrate in general and especially over a 15k hand sample is overemphasized, imo. Though somewhat rare, variance can make an expected 10bb/100 winner be a -10bb/100 loser over that sample size. In about 80% of cases, a person with an expected 10bb/100 winrate over 15k hands is just as likely to be at 1bb/100 as 20bb/100, so in all honesty a difference of 20bb/100 over a 15k sample size isn't really telling you much about your actual skill level.

This is a good tool to help you see what range of winrates become statistically relevant for a given sample size:
http://www.evplusplus.com/poker_tools/variance_simulator/

Instead of winrate, focus on reviewing your hands and making sure you are making the correct decisions, even in hands you are winning. It's always possibly you could have extracted more value, or you made the wrong decision but ended up with a nice result.

As far as when to move up -- I would agree with others to say you should aim to move up as soon as you feel comfortable doing so and your bankroll allows (probably at least 25 buyins, and moving back down if you drop below 20 for the level). If you don't like the new level you are at or drop a few buyins super fast, don't be afraid to drop back down as almost all long-term successful players building a bankroll responsibly have had to do it.
 
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