Why Raise 3x BB When Opening in Position?

[RogueRivered]

My theory after reading all this and experimenting a bit with different raise sizes is that 3x BB is probably good at higher stakes, but at the lowest stakes, where I play, you can easily make your opponents make bigger mistakes by raising more. I find it makes it easier to get more money in the pot when I have a big hand. With 3x BB, they make the same mistake but it costs them less and keeps the pot smaller. 3-betting is really rare, too, at these stakes.

 

[Caseace48]

Can someone explain why the standard pre-flop raise in position is 3 times the BB? A small raise like this usually gives the BB odds to call. Is this why? Because we want the BB to call out of position?

In small stakes, the BB will often call anyway when he doesn't have odds, which is when we raise more than 4x BB. Shouldn't we raise as much as we expect to be called, unless we are stealing with ATC?

How is this for a strategy? Raise more in position with a decent hand, and raise less in position when stealing or with a great hand.

If your varying your bets based on your hand sizes and not the # of players in the pot, it often gives away the strength of your hand and any decent player is going to pick up on it. Just my opinion

 

[dsvw56]

My theory after reading all this and experimenting a bit with different raise sizes is that 3x BB is probably good at higher stakes, but at the lowest stakes, where I play, you can easily make your opponents make bigger mistakes by raising more. I find it makes it easier to get more money in the pot when I have a big hand. With 3x BB, they make the same mistake but it costs them less and keeps the pot smaller. 3-betting is really rare, too, at these stakes.

You pretty much nailed it on the head here. Your raise size is entirely dependent upon the opponent. You want to take the lines that exploits your opponents mistakes the most while keeping yourself from being exploited. Since you're still in the micros and no one has a clue how to exploit anything, you can pretty much disregard the latter half and work on exploiting your opponents as effectively as possible.

Since the most common mistakes players at your limits make are A) calling too much with marginal hands and B) Playing too many hands OOP, the optimal strategy is to force them to play large pots when you have position.

 

[Exit141RTe1]

will call you with horrible hands and, just because their SOOTED,

Cheers[/quote]

Lets hope the cards are plastic, they are easier to get the black stuff off!

 

[Cdub512]

I would raise 3 times the bb if i have a really good hand against a looser table. Raising more with a premium hand against a loose table usually gets your more money when you win the pot.

If its a good/tight table I would reraise 2-2.5 times the bb.

 

[blahdy]

I would raise 3 times the bb if i have a really good hand against a looser table. Raising more with a premium hand against a loose table usually gets your more money when you win the pot.

If its a good/tight table I would reraise 2-2.5 times the bb.

Exactly, on the higher limits (from NL100 higher) is raising to 2,5 BB, not 3 BB, pretty good option. IF you try it, it really helps your winrate ussualy.

 

[tdude]

I think it is only necessary if you have outstanding cards. It is also a good way to get other people out of the pot, but in any case, with very good cards, it is effective.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I think it is only necessary if you have outstanding cards. It is also a good way to get other people out of the pot, but in any case, with very good cards, it is effective.

I'm not understanding what you've said here?? Are you insinuating we just limp in usually?
What about raising for value to build a pot while in position against our opponents? Isn't this what we're essentially doing?

Live play raises are usually higher from my experience.
Also, 10NL & under online, I tend to raise 4.5 > 5x (depends on table, which also seems to depend on what poker site.. ie. FR on Fulltilt... 75% Rocks on the table, Doyles 75% Loose Calling Stations at a similiar stakes).
In tournament play.... early levels 3x,... mid-late levels 2.2 > 2.4x (occassionally I will vary the size of my raise, not in relation to hand strength but more so to position &/or my opponent's playing style (ie. LooseCallingStation 'huge' blind defender.. raise 4x).

 

[Sean Pilgrim]

How can you even hope to put anyone on a range of hands if you don't raise the pot? Just think about the number of times you or someone has
hit there hopeless drawing hand to crack good hands. The purpose of the raise is to weed out the crap hands and reduce the number of players in the hand.

If only this truly worked 100% of the time... you'll still get called by 74o on occasion.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I think part of the reason its around the 3BB mark is for stealing from the blinds. The higher your raise the more often the button steal has to work to show a profit.

Ideally you would like to raise to 2-2.5BB as this gives you the best odds when stealing (thats based on the idea that most people have a calling range which they will call anything between 2-5BB with regardless)

However this means that your value raises on the button also have to be very small too, otherwise you are just announcing you have a good hand PF, when infact you want to try and get an extra bet from them.

So 5BB is great from a value point of view yet poor from a stealing one as now your steal success has to be much higher.

2BB is great from a stealing point of view but the trade off is the value you lose when you have a good hand.

So a one size fits all bet size is 3-3.5BB. Its small enough that your steal success doesn't need to be ridiculously high to show a small profit, yet its high enough to get some value (although not max values) from your better hands.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

when you vary due to hand strength, you will be more vulnerable.

Although I agree with you I don't think this really matters until late middle - late position.

In early position, if you are playing correctly, you should only be entering the pot with very strong hands. I dont think there is so much of a need to try and disguise this with a small bet. The very fact that you are in the hand means that your hand is strong.

So raising for value is probably best here as it reduces the SPR in line with the low target SPR of a big pair type hand.

Between late middle and late position, there is some need to disguise hand strength a little.

On the button a standard bet size is probably better as outlined in my previous post.

 

[Steveg1976]

If your varying your bets based on your hand sizes and not the # of players in the pot, it often gives away the strength of your hand and any decent player is going to pick up on it. Just my opinion

when you vary due to hand strength, you will be more vulnerable.

Your opponents have to be good enough to figure this out.

Also, there are so many different reasons to raise different amounts it is very unlikely any villian will be able to pick up on this without a lot of history. Again, we aren't looking to be playing a lot of hands with opponents that are good enough to pick up on this right?

 

[CAPT. ZIGZAG]

I dunno.....

I prefer waiting for big hands and making pot bets, or larger..... 3BB's allows too many folks in the hand for my liking. One big hand every cuppla rounds works just fine for me. At least early on in the run.

Because of the big bets, I can make a 3BB bet with a monster and the table puts me on a weak A.

I don't read the books. (obviously) Don't know the best play..... EVER. But it seems to work for me. It seems to me that intuition, (and the belief that nobody ever hits.. ) plays a much bigger role in this, than the numbers. Never the less, the numbers can't be ignored.

It pinches me pretty hard as well. Changing gears and betting more conventionally later in the run (or when I have a big stack) is a tactic that eludes me more often than not. Usually resulting in a big empty spot in front of my seat, where once there was plenty. And this (changing gears) is a must...... for me anyways.


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[Deco]

Small Raises are good for Stealing
Big Raises are good for Value

Against an opponent who folds too much we should raise small.
Against an opponent who calls too much we should raise big.

Having said that I doubt it makes a huge difference tho, so as am at low stakes and opponents who call too much are more common I just go with:
4xBB+ 1BB per limper.
I dunno after reading this I'm tempted to scale down to 3xBB when against nits.