Why people say TAG is ideal and why LAG is better.

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Rational Madman

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Why TAG is considered optimal
The stereotypical fish are either loose-passive or tight-passive rocks. The 'donkey' form of a fish incorporates a lot of irrational loose-aggressive poker into their playstyle rather than the typical fish who just makes dumb calls and chases bad odd hands to the river.

Against LP, TAG is undeniably optimal but very few players in modern era of online poker are loose-passive. They now come in the form of the too-safe TP style or the donkey LAG style. The loose-passive styled fish do exist but they are certainly not the majority which means TAG shouldn't be used to counter them.

In another thread I made, https://www.cardschat.com/forum/learning-poker-57/rock-paper-chips-scissors-i-mean-347891/, I explain which style at its core counters others.

In short the formula is this:
If the passivity of the styles is equal, the looser player will profit as they can easier read and bluff the other within their shared betting range.

If the hand-range (looseness vs tightness) of the styles is equal, neither style counters the other but you will find the AG leaning player dominates because they control the pot size of any win or loss.

If the passivity is opposite, the tighter player wins because the looser one will enable them to bait them again and again and not be tightening in response.

Why LAG is superior overall
I think there is no dispute that unless your opponent is doing the raising for you, you want to be aggressive rather than passive in poker.

The idea that Agg is better than Pass alignment stems from the core concept in poker that in order to afford losing money on misses, coolers, folding and bad beats you need to win it back on your good hands or good bluffs. If you play regularly passive, you are leaving the quantity of chips won and lost in the hands of the enemy, this in turn randomizes your profit vs loss margin rather than evening it out in the way that you controlling the pot amount per win and loss via aggression does. Ignoring that, unless you are against a very loose-passive player, aggression helps to get tells.

So why do I believe that a playstyle that incorporates more loose-aggressiong than tight aggression ends up being what the best poker players should aim for? You can argue against me saying that when pros go against each other they all adopt fundamentally TAG playstyles but this is because loosening up doesn't help at all at the top level of poker since your opponents simply stay tight but merely open up the range they will call you with or raise you with. When you play below the pro level, raises mean a lot less and so does checking ironically. In other words to even get tells from other players you very often need to bet a little here and there to gauge the real strength of their hands. Nothing kills a TAG player harder than checking to the river where they catch a twopair and overbet, then call a shove and realizing their opponent flopped a flush. The LAG player who is highly skilled does NOT bet a lot regularly, and they DO NOT ENTER EVERY SINGLE HAND but they definitely enter hands TAGs wouldn't and raise with zero increase in hand strength from late position in order to make tighter players fold or reveal their hand strength as well as softening up the meaning of their raises.

See, the biggest advantage LAG players have over TAG ones is that while both players are using aggression to get tells and to make others either fold or pay them off, the LAG player also uses betting to reduce the amount of 'tell leakage' they give when raising. This allows the to cooler-hand a player much smoother than TAG players ever can. In other words, when the TAG player has a fullhouse to your straight or twopair to your top pair, it's far less likely that your brain wouldn't process that as a likely outcome as you engage them at the river. On the other hand, with the LAG player, you know they will reraise a bet from you unless it's a huge one and you also know they will just call your bet if it's small and they have a weak hand, in other words you get forced against a LAG player to become a semibluffer with strong hands no matter what as you are in the dark of the severity of strength of their hand even at the point of being reraise do a huge bet when you have a straight to their fullhouse, you will likely call thinking they have three of a kind and have underestimated you.

It is very, very essential to understand the difference between a loose fish / donkey and a LAG shark. The LAG shark folds in many situations where the loose fish does not. The LAG shark is not being loose to prove his manhood or her bravery, they are also not being loose for a thrill; they are being loose in order to maximise their profit from being on the upper end of cooler hands and bad beats as TAG players make it far too obvious how strong their hand is due to how rarely they engage in medium-sized bets.

Also LAG players tend to bring out the LAG in other players at times and will be bluffed against and able to make hero calls that TAG players will find much less often they are able to do because people tend to only engage them with good hands.
 
Keith_MM

Keith_MM

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Why don't you wait until lyou are playing profitable real money poker before you try and tell other people how to play.
 
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Why don't you wait until lyou are playing profitable real money poker before you try and tell other people how to play.
thank you for your input, it is very insightful.
 
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tumblr_msp1fjIFNp1sbavuuo1_500.gif


"GRAPHS GRAPHS GRAPHS WHERE THE GRAPHS??????"

WAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAA
 
R

Rational Madman

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So, no graphs?
GRAPHS GRAPHS GRAPHS WANT THE GRAPHS BEFORE YOU HAVE PUT IN THE TIME AND MONEY TO PRODUCE ANY WORTHWHILE ONES!!!!!

Awoooooooooooooooooha!

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Keith_MM

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GRAPHS GRAPHS GRAPHS WANT THE GRAPHS BEFORE YOU HAVE PUT IN THE TIME AND MONEY TO PRODUCE ANY WORTHWHILE ONES!!!!!

Lol we aren't like you , we are taking money (winnings) out , we don't have to keep putting fresh money in like you.
 
onondaga

onondaga

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When LAG go all-in, with any hand, TAG must fold! That's easy :D


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Looks like RM trying to get ITM here,
 
Keith_MM

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Did you look at alucard's progress since july?he's posted hands , listened to advice and implemented it and posted his graphs good and bad , and moved up and making money a lot , lot faster than you.

You just keep churning out flawed articles trying to tell others how to playwith no proof that you are winning at all.Not even something as basic as a cashier screenshot to show bankroll progress.

Your ego is what is holding you back ,refusing to accept that your ideas are wrong or that others may be giving you good advice.
 
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Rational Madman

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Did you look at alucard's progress since july?he's posted hands , listened to advice and implemented it and posted his graphs good and bad , and moved up and making money a lot , lot faster than you.

You just keep churning out flawed articles trying to tell others how to playwith no proof that you are winning at all.Not even something as basic as a cashier screenshot to show bankroll progress.

Your ego is what is holding you back ,refusing to accept that your ideas are wrong or that others may be giving you good advice.
alucard is a great guy gonna go far for sure with his ordinary textbook probability dictated style.

I'm developing a style that combines looking like an idiot and looking like a god, it's a bit harder but I'm getting there.

In the mean time, why don't you and vinnie take a listen to this fine tune

 
B

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=) luls he is liked a lot

Anyways it's no secret lag is better style than tag, all books I have read says that. The thing is that playing like a good lag is not possible before your basic skill level is enough to carry you around higher level games (25-100NL?) with tag style. It’s like putting the fatter of the bus drivers to drive F1 car in the race, yes he can do it, but badly and most likely die. And anyways good player should know both styles, because given opponent you always choose the better style against him.

Easiest place for tag to feel and practice how lags feel is blind play with 50%+ ranges, second is deep stack play where you can play very loosely with nut capable range. Relative nuts ;) that is, meaning 2NL the range can be really wide.
 
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Oh madman how I missed you. I skipped the advice and went straight to the discussion and boy was it worth it!!
 
Keith_MM

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I'm developing a style that combines looking like an idiot and looking like a god, it's a bit harder but I'm getting there.
Well you certainly got the first part nailed but haven't a snowballs chance in hell of nailing the second part.
 
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Well you certainly got the first part nailed but haven't a snowballs chance in hell of nailing the second part.
Were you promoted to controller of fate or something?

How do you know what I shall become? How do you know what power lies within me?

Underestimate me as you please, overestimate me as you please. I am a flawed player but soon you will see, I am a sexily amazing one despite it.
 
Keith_MM

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How do you know what I shall become? How do you know what power lies within me?

Because winning players understand what it takes to beat losing players and know a lot of theory that you haven't even conceived of yet. As a result we can see thatthe rubbish you are spouting will not make you a winning player , because we can see all the ways that winning players will exploit the hell out of you.
Underestimate me as you please, overestimate me as you please. I am a flawed player but soon you will see, I am a sexily amazing one despite it.
Again this is your ego holding you back .Until you start listening to advice you will continue to be a play money ring game player or a losing real money player.
 
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Because winning players understand what it takes to beat losing players and know a lot of theory that you haven't even conceived of yet. As a result we can see thatthe rubbish you are spouting will not make you a winning player , because we can see all the ways that winning players will exploit the hell out of you.

Again this is your ego holding you back .Until you start listening to advice you will continue to be a play money ring game player or a losing real money player.
Always with the vague 'we know what you can't conceive' BS instead of explaining why I'm wrong.

At least vinnie and playj don't pretend they know I'm wrong they just want my graphs. With you, even if i show positive graphs you will still hate saying it is 'short term upswing you will hit hard downswings' blablabla.

You are a hater in its purest form. I mean I would say bully but I can't prove that here because the moment you will go further and bully me Cc will censor it but I have no doubt you are a plain and simple bully-type sociopath.

It's fine by me that you are miserable and want to make others see how flawed and undeserving of respect or uniqueness they should be but sorry Mr. Stalin, I am the Tsar you couldn't kill.
 
R

Rational Madman

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Because winning players understand what it takes to beat losing players and know a lot of theory that you haven't even conceived of yet. As a result we can see thatthe rubbish you are spouting will not make you a winning player , because we can see all the ways that winning players will exploit the hell out of you.

Again this is your ego holding you back .Until you start listening to advice you will continue to be a play money ring game player or a losing real money player.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...rly-record-sessions-enjoy-348557/#post3905739
Ok just see this thread and wait for my session recordings
 
vinnie

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At least vinnie and playj don't pretend they know I'm wrong they just want my graphs. With you, even if i show positive graphs you will still hate saying it is 'short term upswing you will hit hard downswings' blablabla.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again. I actually like you RM. I don't wish you any ill-will. I want success for you. You remind me of my step-brother. He has a great passion for poker and believes he can be the best. His biggest problem comes from denial of where he currently is, and accurately reviewing his current play. He never improves because he never sees where he was in the past or where he is now. He has grand, sweeping, ideas of how he can exploit various play styles; but, he lacks the solid foundation and ability to implement these ideas in a consistent and profitable way.

I won't deny it, I don't think you're currently a winning player. Or, at best, you are just beating the rake. It probably is possible to eek out a minuscule profit at the $2NL tables, even with very big holes in your game. Posting those graphs is important for accepting that there are areas where you can improve. Then, you pick a focus spot (or two) and work on that. Later, you post another graph of the time since the first one. And, we'll see a big improvement. Or, if your changes were not good, we might see it went down and have to examine what happened.

I believe you can be great. You have the passion for it. But, passion alone isn't enough. It takes dedicated and structured work. If you look at the best pros, you will find tons of anecdotal stories where they spent hours and hours off the table reviewing the game, developing strategies, working the numbers, and then going back to the table and trying things out.
 
Alucard

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Rational you have to listen to the good people here. Since you stated that you are going to record your progress, I just took a peak and found a table you were sitting as you know. My intention was to see how you are playing & by no means to humiliate you or that sort of stuff.

But if you are OK, I'd post some hands you played for reviews and my input on your plays as well.
But it's your choice of course. If you don't want to then I won't post them.
Anyways enjoyed the table & the little chat with you. But from my point of view you've got somethings to learn to move further.
Theories & brags doesn't mean a lot until you start playing & experience it for real.
 
R

Rational Madman

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Rational you have to listen to the good people here. Since you stated that you are going to record your progress, I just took a peak and found a table you were sitting as you know. My intention was to see how you are playing & by no means to humiliate you or that sort of stuff.

But if you are OK, I'd post some hands you played for reviews and my input on your plays as well.
But it's your choice of course. If you don't want to then I won't post them.
Anyways enjoyed the table & the little chat with you. But from my point of view you've got somethings to learn to move further.
Theories & brags doesn't mean a lot until you start playing & experience it for real.
I am 20 cents below what I began with that session, I had a huge cooler streak that is all.
 
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