When should you fold KK preflop?

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KK_Cowboy

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Well

I can honestly say I have folded KK once preflop, and I only did that because I knew my opponent had aces. Yes it is really hard to tell in that spot and to know for sure. And although this may shound cliche, you just have a feeling. You almost have to play them after the flop provided you have a beneficial flop (ex. 27Q).
 
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JonSherwood

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Diablo, you're making a good solid point as well, but there are just sometimes when you know it'll benefit you more not play them. I've only ever not played it once, not KK though, I think it was AA. And that was in a situation like StackEmUp was explaining. Final table, couple people already all-in. If you call, you MIGHT win, but you're now down to, what is it, like 60% chance of winning. I believe I made the right decision because a few people were knocked out and made some more money.

On the other hand, some people are saying they'd fold them on the bubble. Forget that, usually the money you'll hit just inside the bubble is barely what you payed to enter the tourney, and you shouldn't be playing a tourney where you don't mind losing the money you used to buy-in. Being too worried to lose that money is going to restrict you from playing your best game. If you get aces or kings on the bubble, who cares if you don't make it to the money. You've got a substantial chance here to make your stack even higher, which will allow you to make it even farther into the money. If you lose, you lose. It doesn't happen often but it has to sometimes.

In conclusion, I believe the only time you should your kings or aces is when you're definitely going to be making an extra amount of money at a final table. (And I'm not talking like an extra $10, I'm talking much bigger. If you're only going to make an extra $10 bucks by not calling, call and try to go even bigger. If you're going to be making $100 more by not calling, don't call.

As for the guy who said he'll never fold AK, you've got a lot to learn. You'll never go far in poker without folding those. I've folded them plenty of times. You'll win more than you'll lose if you fold them when you need too. Someone with 2-2 still has a favorite over you. It's a strong hand, but not a never-fold strong hand. If someone's betting into you big, most likely they've got some high pockets. You should be folding.


Jon
 
S

StackThemUp

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Hi,
Looks like this thread has a created a bit of a storm. I'm in agreement with jon sherwood here. Diablo does make some good points but i still stand by what i said in the first place. If there were 2/3 all in before me and i stood a huge chance of moving higher up in cash standings then i'd fold KK without a problem,i'm not playing to not lose i'm playing the sensible option. KK against 4 way is no where near strong enough to justify risking large amounts of money deep in a tournament,i'm sorry its just not. And as for Hellmuth being arguably the best NL player!!! He's very talented but i do not rate him in the my top 5 players. But each unto himself as they say,i've made a lot of money playing online poker and i'm happy with the way that i've done it.
Lets remember we are talking about rare situations here,i've folded KK 3 times in god knows how many hands,probably 500,000+.
John
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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What about QQ?

(I'll get me coat!)
 
HoldemChamp

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Overgeneralizations are bad.

Saying if you play not to lose you will never win is flat out wrong.

So many things depend on where you are in a game and so many other factors.

I have folded hands that other people would think I was crazy for folding. Especially when I am short stacked. I made a read that I was gonna be in big trouble for playing the hands and many times I am right.

AA or KK are tough hands to fold though. However, never say never. The occasions to fold them are rare. But, as was already said, they do exist. If I do feel I am up against AA with KK and there and it is a multi way hand with the potential of moving up at least one position or more. I might do it. AA is almost impossible to fold. Not matter what the situation.

Oh, BTW, I have played not to lose and won. Just friday I won by making several folds that I probably should not have done. I still won though.

Do I win as much as I should using this strategy. Nope. But, I am still learning. Eventually I will shed the need to not lose attittude. But, for not it is working.
 
diabloblanco

diabloblanco

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If you don't win as much as you should using that strategy, is it not then -EV?
 
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ronholes7059

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Sorry, didn't mean to cause a ruccass. I have always had a tough time folding KK preflop and I don't think I ever have (QQ i have folded many times and was correct to do so). I even knew this guy i was playing against had aces and I still made the all in call, it was just SOO hard to drop them. That was early on in my poker career. I even called 3 other all ins once with pocket Ks (I was middle stacked and thought I should make a move) and luckily they held up.
 
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WillWiggly

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Assassination of The Mighty Kings

I'm in 6th place. I'm short stacked. I' have two kings resting comfortably in my nice little hand, raring to get in on the action. A money spot is one step away. The person to my left goes 'All-in'. Influenced by ego, greed or sheer stupidity,the next person also goes 'All-In'. Caught up in the frenzy of the moment (and thinking how nice it would be to add a hefty amount of chips to his pile), the third player jumps into the melee. The chip leader folds, the next player folds, and as hard as it is for me to do....I fold. Cards go out....player #1 has KK. Player #2 has AQ suited, and for some bizarre reason from out of left field player #3 has a pair of 3's. The flop reveals A J 2, the turn reveals a 3 and what doe you suppose should come floating on down the river? That's right.....another 3. I've seen it with my own eyes. So do I ever fold the double Kings? Yer damned right I do! Oh, by the way I placed second in that match. Mister almighty '3' man got raked over the coals pretty good after that.
 
HoldemChamp

HoldemChamp

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Well Diablo,

That kinda depends on your definition of should. I think I should win almost ever tourney I am playing. :D

Honestly though. I my Ev balances. There are many tournies I shouldn't have gotten into the money because a hand I didn't play short stacked that I should have.

Case in point is yesterday. I folded a nice hand that I should have been all in with. Granted I was on the bubble but I was still risking a lot not playing the hand.

Well, 2 people went head to head. The person with the most chips won. Tada, I am in the money when I really shouldn't have been. The hand I folded was like 2 hands previous and would have lost. I would have been knocked out of the tournament a couple places shy of the bubble for playing a hand that I was suppose to play.

Instead I picked up 2.4% of the prize pool. I made several comebacks extremely short stacked. I finally went out on a pair of 4s that lost to a J paired on the river.

So for the times I don't get 1st because of playing to tight I make up for it by getting in the money several times that I shouldn't have.

The balance.
 
misstrixi

misstrixi

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I really have a hard time playing pocket pairs period, Im always way to aggressive or way to passive. last week I had AA, i didn't want a bunch of cards falling to give someone else the oppertunity for a better hand so I went allin. thought i could scare them, NOT. got called, face up my AA, his K2, yes 2. the flop drops 5s7s2d, not to worried, I got aces, Turn King, River, you guessed it king,
"thank you very much for playing, you finished the tournament 686th, congratulations,
lol
 
XXIII

XXIII

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RammerJammer said:
All due respect, but if you play QQ pre-flop with the same weight that you play Aces or Kings, you're gonna get busted out...a lot.
No I play all good cards exactly the same preflop. And I play a lot of tournaments. Usually finish in the money. Only finished 1st once but eh. Always a learning experience. Usually I hit a wall but seems everyone does. :wavey:
 
diabloblanco

diabloblanco

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If you play "all good cards exactly the same pre-flop" then when you sit at a table with anyone who pays the least bit of attention, you're game will be almost instantly compromised and you're just a duck in the orbit waiting to get picked off. Why would you play all good cards the same when they all have different values which constantly change and fluctuate during the match? This statement, with all due repsect, is very, very amaturish, and if true is costing you a lot of money and or wins.
 
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JonSherwood

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diabloblanco said:
If you play "all good cards exactly the same pre-flop" then when you sit at a table with anyone who pays the least bit of attention, you're game will be almost instantly compromised and you're just a duck in the orbit waiting to get picked off. Why would you play all good cards the same when they all have different values which constantly change and fluctuate during the match? This statement, with all due repsect, is very, very amaturish, and if true is costing you a lot of money and or wins.

Diablo,

I've seen a few pros actually recommend and use this strategy, so it's not completely amateurish. Maybe it just takes a pro to do it well. ;)

I'm in a semi-agreeance with you though. I play them all differently according to the game I'm. I aggree that if you raise the same every time you have a hand your opponent will not know what to put you on...But if you're playing with people who are watching your style you'll start to get more callers than you want when you pick up monsters like AA or KK. Just all a matter of opinion I suppose.

Jon
 
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