I saw a post about folding AA preflop, I was just curious as to when some of you fold KK preflop. I know it is really hard to drop this hand preflop, I have never done it personally just because the stakes I was playing weren't that great. Any stories about dropping the cowboys?

I never folded KK. I think it is worth even going all in with unless it is early in the tournament.

When should you fold KK preflop?

The answer is simple...if you KNOW for a fact that your opponent has pocket aces.

You want KK up against every other hand...

Originally Posted by chicubs1616

When should you fold KK preflop?

The answer is simple...if you KNOW for a fact that your opponent has pocket aces.

You want KK up against every other hand...

I hate to sound argumentative but when do you know for a fact that someone has AA? You can't unless you have x ray vision. I have folded KK preflop when there were 3 to go til the money in the 250k on party poker not long ago, i had just below avg,and 2 other people were all in so to me the gamble wasn't worth it,and i'm glad i did as someone flopped a set.

why would you fold KK preflop? a pair of 2's is even better preflop than ak suited for instance, and where did you read anyone who folded AA preflop? That's just idiot...

You would fold KK preflop for the above reasons i stated in my post,and i would most certainly fold 22 as its only a coin flip to over cards...you never want a coin flip when big money is at stake or making it to a final table etc at least i don't.

Is this post serious? Where on gods earth did you see a post where someone folded AA pre-flop? Please link me to it so I can flame whomever that is off the planet. And for all that didn't understand chicubs' post, please go back an re-read it. It is called sarcasm. He was simply saying that unless you positively know that your opponent has AA, you play KK like the monster that it is. For example, if you are 100% positive that your opponent picks his nose with his right pinky and wipes it on his shirtfrom left to right when he has pocket Aces, fold. Other than that, man up and play your Kings.
-diablo-

I'd fold it mabey If i thought the other guy has Slick, or if he had aces

Man up and play your kings?
I'm nearly rolling off my chair as i type this!
So you'd play your KK if for example there were 5 players left and you were short stack by some 10,000. Two others are all in against the chip leader and you look down and find KK. The prize money for 5th is $500,4th $700 and 3rd $1000. I know i'd fold every day of the week. You have to look at your EV and what you gain from calling? Even if you win,you'd still be a mile behind the two chip leaders. I'd let the chip leader take at least one if not 2 out and increase my prize money by $500. Its not always about the cards..you need to use your brain aswell,AND to add coal to the fire i'd fold AA as AA against 3 others is roughly only 63%. I'm more interested in the money than moving up one in chip count!!

Sorry folks, I could NEVER fold AA EVER EVER EVER, and if i EVER DO I really do think I should never play poker, I see there is a thread about snap, I might just go and read that just in case.

As for KK, I've only ever folded it once, in a live game when i seen the newbies hand shaking as he went all in, and true to form he had the Aces. That felt better than seing the KK in the first place.

I never fold K's preflop.
Consider the chances of someone else having pocket aces?? very slim.
Play the cards always!!!
I have rarely lost on pocket K's..

Always play pocket kings. They seem to beat my pocket aces 5/6 times :-\ (though i would NEVER fold either pre-flop)

Last time I played, I had AA and went all in pre-flop. I was called by KK and the flop was A K 5 rainbow. The perfect flop! Now he cant even beat me with a straight! The turn was another king...beat by quads.

I saw a post about folding AA preflop on this forum somewhere, I'll try and find the thread

here is the thread about folding AA
Should You...Could You.......Would You? - Poker Forums

There was a thread about folding AA, but the [sensible] consensus that was reached, if I recall, was that you could only fold AA before the flop in extremely specialised circumstances, ie. never in a cash game, and only in tournament situations where you're just outside the money positions and 3 or 4 people have gone all in before you.

Obviously such situations will be extremely rare. Situations where you should fold KK will be almost equally rare, but I have played in cash games where there are a few players who I've played with enough to know you can only sanely put them on AA if they raise all in pre-flop. Against these guys I might put down KK pre-flop.

I always fold KK in a tourney where there is crazy all in action (3 or more people).

The object is to win the tourney, not just the hand. Any hand really only has its strongest advantage when heads up. Up against multiple opponants odds are one or more of them will hit something like 2 pair etc. Big pairs tend to win small pots and lose big ones.

Usually the risk is too big to justify this. Why let it damage your stack unnecessarily and ruin your tourney hopes?

Then again if you are short stacked, who cares. Go for it.

Wow...just wow.

Ditto to what he said!
i cant believe the responses of some people in this thread.
I wouldn't fold KK preflop unless it was in a tourny situation as mentioned above. as for folding pocket rockets... i have never done and probably never will.

never ever fold!!!

Originally Posted by StackThemUp

Man up and play your kings?
I'm nearly rolling off my chair as i type this!
So you'd play your KK if for example there were 5 players left and you were short stack by some 10,000. Two others are all in against the chip leader and you look down and find KK. The prize money for 5th is $500,4th $700 and 3rd $1000. I know i'd fold every day of the week. You have to look at your EV and what you gain from calling? Even if you win,you'd still be a mile behind the two chip leaders. I'd let the chip leader take at least one if not 2 out and increase my prize money by $500. Its not always about the cards..you need to use your brain aswell,AND to add coal to the fire i'd fold AA as AA against 3 others is roughly only 63%. I'm more interested in the money than moving up one in chip count!!

StackEmUp is making a great point! Listen to him! I'd do the same in that position, and I have before...If people are all in and youare going to move up in prize money majorly if they go out, fold 'em

Jon

KK or AA means ALL IN to me Wel lsometimes I like to slow play them to... try to suck more money out of people!!!

You ALWAYS have to consider the situation. The times when you fold AA or KK preflop are rare, but they exist. I have done it, and it is painful. However, folding helped accomplish my goal with nearly 100% probability instead of taking a foolish chance. If you are on the bubble in a tourney, you have to look beyond the two cards in your hands.

I think that was well said lightning!! I would never fold AA or KK unless I was in a tourney on the bubble. Thats just me now I have heard of them being folded just because it didnt feel right. I dont understand that. I really try to slow play KK myself depending on the postion.

I'd never fold AA or KK or AK(suited or not*) or QQ preflop


*some people here say they'd fold off suit. Yeah ok sure you keep folding AK preflop or w/e I'll play them and lets see who does better

Anyone saying to fold KK pre-flop or especially AA, in a tourney situation is playing scared. You play not to lose and you'll never win. I watched a WSOP episode some time ago when Phil Hellmuth (arguably the best NLHE tournament player ever) folded KK preflop because he had a solid read that he was up against Aces (which he was correct) and when he did it he said, "I have only folded this hand pre-flop twice, EVER." Are you teling me that you guys method of moving up in the money or not busting on the bubble is more sound than the strategy used by him? Do you think he would have given a rats ass about the bubble or the 4th or 5th place finish? NO. He plays to win, which is what you should be doing also. If you fold KK in this situation you're most likely letting an opportunity to build your stack slip by without capitalizing on it. In a tournament you simply can't afford not to capitalize at every given opportunity. Two times the man has folded KK pre flop out of the thousands and thousands of times he has held the hand. Who knows best?

The key phrase here is "pre-flop". I think all of us have folded AA or KK on the turn or river when faced with sets, straights, flushes, or boats. I've even folded when I strongly suspected someone had caught two smaller pairs. But folding bullets or cowboys before the flop? No way. Play them the way they deserve to be played...hard! All the other dialogue about scenarios to the contrary is just mental masturbation.

Originally Posted by XXIII

I'd never fold AA or KK or AK(suited or not*) or QQ preflop.

All due respect, but if you play QQ pre-flop with the same weight that you play Aces or Kings, you're gonna get busted out...a lot.

I can honestly say I have folded KK once preflop, and I only did that because I knew my opponent had aces. Yes it is really hard to tell in that spot and to know for sure. And although this may shound cliche, you just have a feeling. You almost have to play them after the flop provided you have a beneficial flop (ex. 27Q).

Diablo, you're making a good solid point as well, but there are just sometimes when you know it'll benefit you more not play them. I've only ever not played it once, not KK though, I think it was AA. And that was in a situation like StackEmUp was explaining. Final table, couple people already all-in. If you call, you MIGHT win, but you're now down to, what is it, like 60% chance of winning. I believe I made the right decision because a few people were knocked out and made some more money.

On the other hand, some people are saying they'd fold them on the bubble. Forget that, usually the money you'll hit just inside the bubble is barely what you payed to enter the tourney, and you shouldn't be playing a tourney where you don't mind losing the money you used to buy-in. Being too worried to lose that money is going to restrict you from playing your best game. If you get aces or kings on the bubble, who cares if you don't make it to the money. You've got a substantial chance here to make your stack even higher, which will allow you to make it even farther into the money. If you lose, you lose. It doesn't happen often but it has to sometimes.

In conclusion, I believe the only time you should your kings or aces is when you're definitely going to be making an extra amount of money at a final table. (And I'm not talking like an extra $10, I'm talking much bigger. If you're only going to make an extra $10 bucks by not calling, call and try to go even bigger. If you're going to be making $100 more by not calling, don't call.

As for the guy who said he'll never fold AK, you've got a lot to learn. You'll never go far in poker without folding those. I've folded them plenty of times. You'll win more than you'll lose if you fold them when you need too. Someone with 2-2 still has a favorite over you. It's a strong hand, but not a never-fold strong hand. If someone's betting into you big, most likely they've got some high pockets. You should be folding.


Jon

Hi,
Looks like this thread has a created a bit of a storm. I'm in agreement with jon sherwood here. Diablo does make some good points but i still stand by what i said in the first place. If there were 2/3 all in before me and i stood a huge chance of moving higher up in cash standings then i'd fold KK without a problem,i'm not playing to not lose i'm playing the sensible option. KK against 4 way is no where near strong enough to justify risking large amounts of money deep in a tournament,i'm sorry its just not. And as for Hellmuth being arguably the best NL player!!! He's very talented but i do not rate him in the my top 5 players. But each unto himself as they say,i've made a lot of money playing online poker and i'm happy with the way that i've done it.
Lets remember we are talking about rare situations here,i've folded KK 3 times in god knows how many hands,probably 500,000+.
John

What about QQ?

(I'll get me coat!)

Overgeneralizations are bad.

Saying if you play not to lose you will never win is flat out wrong.

So many things depend on where you are in a game and so many other factors.

I have folded hands that other people would think I was crazy for folding. Especially when I am short stacked. I made a read that I was gonna be in big trouble for playing the hands and many times I am right.

AA or KK are tough hands to fold though. However, never say never. The occasions to fold them are rare. But, as was already said, they do exist. If I do feel I am up against AA with KK and there and it is a multi way hand with the potential of moving up at least one position or more. I might do it. AA is almost impossible to fold. Not matter what the situation.

Oh, BTW, I have played not to lose and won. Just friday I won by making several folds that I probably should not have done. I still won though.

Do I win as much as I should using this strategy. Nope. But, I am still learning. Eventually I will shed the need to not lose attittude. But, for not it is working.

If you don't win as much as you should using that strategy, is it not then -EV?

Sorry, didn't mean to cause a ruccass. I have always had a tough time folding KK preflop and I don't think I ever have (QQ i have folded many times and was correct to do so). I even knew this guy i was playing against had aces and I still made the all in call, it was just SOO hard to drop them. That was early on in my poker career. I even called 3 other all ins once with pocket Ks (I was middle stacked and thought I should make a move) and luckily they held up.

I'm in 6th place. I'm short stacked. I' have two kings resting comfortably in my nice little hand, raring to get in on the action. A money spot is one step away. The person to my left goes 'All-in'. Influenced by ego, greed or sheer stupidity,the next person also goes 'All-In'. Caught up in the frenzy of the moment (and thinking how nice it would be to add a hefty amount of chips to his pile), the third player jumps into the melee. The chip leader folds, the next player folds, and as hard as it is for me to do....I fold. Cards go out....player #1 has KK. Player #2 has AQ suited, and for some bizarre reason from out of left field player #3 has a pair of 3's. The flop reveals A J 2, the turn reveals a 3 and what doe you suppose should come floating on down the river? That's right.....another 3. I've seen it with my own eyes. So do I ever fold the double Kings? Yer damned right I do! Oh, by the way I placed second in that match. Mister almighty '3' man got raked over the coals pretty good after that.

Well Diablo,

That kinda depends on your definition of should. I think I should win almost ever tourney I am playing.

Honestly though. I my Ev balances. There are many tournies I shouldn't have gotten into the money because a hand I didn't play short stacked that I should have.

Case in point is yesterday. I folded a nice hand that I should have been all in with. Granted I was on the bubble but I was still risking a lot not playing the hand.

Well, 2 people went head to head. The person with the most chips won. Tada, I am in the money when I really shouldn't have been. The hand I folded was like 2 hands previous and would have lost. I would have been knocked out of the tournament a couple places shy of the bubble for playing a hand that I was suppose to play.

Instead I picked up 2.4% of the prize pool. I made several comebacks extremely short stacked. I finally went out on a pair of 4s that lost to a J paired on the river.

So for the times I don't get 1st because of playing to tight I make up for it by getting in the money several times that I shouldn't have.

The balance.

I really have a hard time playing pocket pairs period, Im always way to aggressive or way to passive. last week I had AA, i didn't want a bunch of cards falling to give someone else the oppertunity for a better hand so I went allin. thought i could scare them, NOT. got called, face up my AA, his K2, yes 2. the flop drops 5s7s2d, not to worried, I got aces, Turn King, River, you guessed it king,
"thank you very much for playing, you finished the tournament 686th, congratulations,
lol

Originally Posted by RammerJammer

All due respect, but if you play QQ pre-flop with the same weight that you play Aces or Kings, you're gonna get busted out...a lot.

No I play all good cards exactly the same preflop. And I play a lot of tournaments. Usually finish in the money. Only finished 1st once but eh. Always a learning experience. Usually I hit a wall but seems everyone does.

If you play "all good cards exactly the same pre-flop" then when you sit at a table with anyone who pays the least bit of attention, you're game will be almost instantly compromised and you're just a duck in the orbit waiting to get picked off. Why would you play all good cards the same when they all have different values which constantly change and fluctuate during the match? This statement, with all due repsect, is very, very amaturish, and if true is costing you a lot of money and or wins.

Originally Posted by diabloblanco

If you play "all good cards exactly the same pre-flop" then when you sit at a table with anyone who pays the least bit of attention, you're game will be almost instantly compromised and you're just a duck in the orbit waiting to get picked off. Why would you play all good cards the same when they all have different values which constantly change and fluctuate during the match? This statement, with all due repsect, is very, very amaturish, and if true is costing you a lot of money and or wins.

Diablo,

I've seen a few pros actually recommend and use this strategy, so it's not completely amateurish. Maybe it just takes a pro to do it well.

I'm in a semi-agreeance with you though. I play them all differently according to the game I'm. I aggree that if you raise the same every time you have a hand your opponent will not know what to put you on...But if you're playing with people who are watching your style you'll start to get more callers than you want when you pick up monsters like AA or KK. Just all a matter of opinion I suppose.

Jon