What would u do holdem situation quiz???

Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

Legend
Hi all.

As you may or may not know my other threads have been about MTT and the luck involved. Thanks for all your opinions on those.

It got me thinking. Am I perhaps betting too much at the wrong time, and if so can it be avoided?

I have set some posers for you guys. Imagine in all examples you are in 10th position out of 40 players left. (on-line)
140 players started and you have been playing for about 3 hours, u paid $25 buyin. 1st prize is over $1,000 with 10th being $40 (30% + 1% with other payouts between)
U have about 8k in chips, the blinds are 200/400. No limit game.

  1. U have JJ. Raised 5 times bb. 1 caller, has 4k chips (now 2k after call) blinds have folded. Flop 9,4,7 rainbow. What is your next move and why?
  2. U r the bb everyone folds to the sb who raises 3 times bb. He has about 8k left also. You have AKo. What do you do?
  3. U r on sb. U r delt KK. Early raise 2 x bb (with 4k chips). 2 callers (about 6k chips each). Chip leader (16k chips) re raise to total 6 times bb (2400). So, out of 10 at table, u only have sb to act after you. What do u do?
These are genuine situations and I would love to find out if I made the right play. If you need any more info let me know.

Good luck.

Ronaldadio
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
Ronaldadio said:
These are genuine situations and I would love to find out if I made the right play.
I'll give my opinions, but i dont think you can say 1 idea is right whilst another is wrong. I would

1) Put him all-in. He shouldn't have called with half his stack, but what the hey. You've missed flop, he's missed flop (hopefully), so take offensive action and put the pressure on him.

2) Re-raise him and see what he does. He's probably trying to steal, so again, take the initiative away from him and put the pressure on.

3) All in.
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
Ronaldadio said:
I have set some posers for you guys. Imagine in all examples you are in 10th position out of 40 players left. (on-line)
140 players started and you have been playing for about 3 hours, u paid $25 buyin. 1st prize is over $1,000 with 10th being $40 (30% + 1% with other payouts between)
U have about 8k in chips, the blinds are 200/400. No limit game.

  1. U have JJ. Raised 5 times bb. 1 caller, has 4k chips (now 2k after call) blinds have folded. Flop 9,4,7 rainbow. What is your next move and why?
  2. U r the bb everyone folds to the sb who raises 3 times bb. He has about 8k left also. You have AKo. What do you do?
  3. U r on sb. U r delt KK. Early raise 2 x bb (with 4k chips). 2 callers (about 6k chips each). Chip leader (16k chips) re raise to total 6 times bb (2400). So, out of 10 at table, u only have sb to act after you. What do u do?

1. Push all in. The cards on the board are lower than what you have for a pair. There are no flush draws but there are some longshot straight draws. Don't let them see a free card.

2. A, K offsuit is not exactly a hand I would like to go all in with so I would reraise but not all in.

3. Easy. Push all in. The only hand you have to worry about is Pocket Aces.
 
C

colin_147

Guest
1st hand is an all in move for last 2k

2nd hand is a raise all in

3rd hand is a raise all in situation again. It seems like a familiar tune but you are likely ahead in all 3 situations, and probably a coinflip at worst with AKos
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
t1riel said:
2. A, K offsuit is not exactly a hand I would like to go all in with so I would reraise but not all in.

So either (a) you'll minraise, giving SB odds to call with a huge range of hands, or (b) you'll raise a decent enough amount to not give odds but will commit half your stack preflop?

Both are bad. This is a pretty standard push, as are the other two.
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
Dorkus Malorkus said:
So either (a) you'll minraise, giving SB odds to call with a huge range of hands, or (b) you'll raise a decent enough amount to not give odds but will commit half your stack preflop?

Both are bad. This is a pretty standard push, as are the other two.

Wait a minute here. Rob also said re-raise but you don't say anything. But when I say re-raise, all of a sudden it's a bad answer? What's the deal?
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
If 10 people said the same thing and I disagreed with them all, would you want me to quote all of their posts? I just picked yours because you specifically said "raise but not all in", whereas Rob was more vague.

I don't really see the problem.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
Dorkus does have the unfortunate tendancy to make his opinions sound like a statement of fact.

I dont think my answer and yours is wrong Tim. When all said and done, AK is ace high. If you're up against A rag, you're laughing, if you're against a pair you're the underdog. I'd re-raise him - sufficient to give him the opportunity to fold, and if that makes you "pot committed" then I dont see the difference between that and an all-in? It does give you some leeway to get out though if opponent does go over the top of your re-raise, convincing you he's got a better hand. I do think, with an 8000 stack and a 1,200 bet, there is some leg room for a re-raise.

I wouldn't argue against a call here either. If that means opponent hits his hand then so be it - if you miss it will still be a cheap loss.
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
robwhufc said:
Dorkus does have the unfortunate tendancy to make his opinions sound like a statement of fact.

I dont think my answer and yours is wrong Tim. When all said and done, AK is ace high. If you're up against A rag, you're laughing, if you're against a pair you're the underdog. I'd re-raise him - sufficient to give him the opportunity to fold, and if that makes you "pot committed" then I dont see the difference between that and an all-in? It does give you some leeway to get out though if opponent does go over the top of your re-raise, convincing you he's got a better hand. I do think, with an 8000 stack and a 1,200 bet, there is some leg room for a re-raise.

I wouldn't argue against a call here either. If that means opponent hits his hand then so be it - if you miss it will still be a cheap loss.

I couldn't agree more. That's what I meant when I said re-raise but not all-in.
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

Suckout Queen
#1 definetly allin
#2 I would call, wait for flop and see what comes. AKos is a good start but not a great one. If the flop is in your favor, then put the pressure on.
#3 reraise 2400. Good enough to pressure but not enough to cripple you.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
I find it amusing that you of all people appear to be implying that I'm being overconfident, Rob. ;)

- You gain extra fold equity by pushing.

- You eliminate any second-guessing of yourself postflop (I know I said you'd be committed, which you will be in the vast majority of cases, but if 9dTdJd flop and you hold AsKc and villain pushes, you may end up folding).

- Most importantly, pushing preflop ensures you are getting all your money in while either ahead or coinflipping (barring villain holding AA/KK, and considering the range for a SB raise here is huge, AA/KK is unlikely), a situation that will true a lot less of the time if you see a flop, considering that AK misses more flops than it hits. Why get half your money in when you're almost certain to be flipping or better and the other half when in most cases you won't have a clue where you stand when you can get it all in while you're more confident of your chances?

Say you repop to 3.5k and villain pushes, do you seriously consider folding despite having half your chips invested and getting ridiculous pot odds that I'm too lazy to work out exactly? Unless I have some kind of read on villain as the tightest nit in the universe, there's no way that should happen as far as I'm concerned.
 
Last edited:
Stick66

Stick66

Legend
RE #2: IMHO, AK in a tournament is many times an "it depends" hand. I know its strength and odds and blah, blah, blah. But in the situation above, I think the decision to raise, push, call, or fold would also depend on some less technical factors:
  • Table reads. What kind of player is your SB raiser? Tight, loose, aggressive, passive, etc.
  • Your perceived skill level. Do you think this guy can outplay you post-flop or vice-versa?
  • Stack sizes of players at & not at your table. Sklansky says this factor should also be considered when making late-tourney decisions. Folding a close decision like this may even move you up in the standings.
  • Your goal. Do you want to win it all or nothing, or just cash?
Anyway, #1 & #3 are pretty straight-forward. But #2 "depends", IMO.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
All in All in ALL IN!
We may need a read for the AK hand, but unless he is a 'mouse' then I'm pushing.
All of them are perfect situations; JJ I would have reraised him PF, but since you didn't, I'm pushing him on the flop.
KK is an easy push.
 
F

Fish

Rock Star
Answers in Bold.

Ronaldadio said:
U have JJ. Raised 5 times bb. 1 caller, has 4k chips (now 2k after call) blinds have folded. Flop 9,4,7 rainbow. What is your next move and why?

Push. You are most likely ahead. You want a call. He is committed to your raise. If you lose you still have 10BBs left.


U r the bb everyone folds to the sb who raises 3 times bb. He has about 8k left also. You have AKo. What do you do?
Push. You are most likely ahead. This is most likely a semi-strong hand trying to steal. You are dominated only by Kings or Aces. You are hoping to win the hand now without a showdown.
U r on sb. U r delt KK. Early raise 2 x bb (with 4k chips). 2 callers (about 6k chips each). Chip leader (16k chips) re raise to total 6 times bb (2400). So, out of 10 at table, u only have sb to act after you. What do u do?
Push. You are behind only Aces. Earlyraiser is only real possibility of A-A, but he probably would have pushed. Callers, are looking to hit something. Chipleader is probably flexing his stack.
Obviously you are just begging to be called here, but you do want to limit the field a little.
Early raiser should call, 2 should fold, Bigstack 'might' call. and that would be a very good thing.
 
Effexor

Effexor

Cardschat Elite
1. all in, you are probably up against 2 overs, thats an ideal flop for JJ

2. all in, probably not up against AA or KK, and ALL other hands you are at worst a coin flip. Plus it smells like a blind steal attempt. May as well make him make the tough decision.

3. all in, you have the second best starting hand possible. Plus you want to try and thin the field out. KK works best heads up and not in a multi way pot.

At this point in the MTT you are in the money and now want to try and win it. PUSH! Be the aggressor ! Take reasonable risks for the big money.
 
F

Fish

Rock Star
Effexor said:
At this point in the MTT you are in the money and now want to try and win it.
No you're not.
140 players. should pay 14-20 spots.
You are right that he should still be looking to build a bigger stack though.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
i cant see the #2 hand getting away if you re-raise. he would probably push all in. calling would be my choice in that situation. only hands that you could call his re-re-raise all-in with would be made hands, which yours isnt...
 
F

Fish

Rock Star
Joose. The only thing he can have that worries you is KK-AA.
Even if he has Q-Q, pushing all-in on him gives him a tough decision.

This is Fold-Equity in it's finest form.
Also, he probably has a weak ace, or nothing most likely. Looks like a steal.
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

Cardschat Elite
1. All-in. There`s nothing scary on the flop, you`re favourite, put him to a decision.

2. Call and see the flop. If you don`t hit, you`re not pot-committed and can lay it down. AKo is great if it hits, but don`t overvalue it.

3. Depends on your read of the chip leader. What kinds of hands has he been raising with previously ? If you think he`s tight, there`s a case for laying this one down. If the chip leader feels confident and wants to kill off some of the smaller stacks, he`s doing your work for you and moving you nearer the money. It`s not smart to fight him if there`s a good chance he`s holding a hand like AK, AQ, AJ (let alone AA). You could easily finish up in a three- or four-way all-in here and be no better than 50/50 to win it.
 
F

Fish

Rock Star
Egon Towst said:
3. Depends on your read of the chip leader. What kinds of hands has he been raising with previously ? If you think he`s tight, there`s a case for laying this one down. If the chip leader feels confident and wants to kill off some of the smaller stacks, he`s doing your work for you and moving you nearer the money. It`s not smart to fight him if there`s a good chance he`s holding a hand like AK, AQ, AJ (let alone AA). You could easily finish up in a three- or four-way all-in here and be no better than 50/50 to win it.
You hold K-K?
The ChipLeader did NOT become chipleader by only playing A-A.
You want a call from A-Q A-J and Especially A-K.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

Legend
Fish said:
You hold K-K?
The ChipLeader did NOT become chipleader by only playing A-A.
You want a call from A-Q A-J and Especially A-K.

This is correct. The chip leader `got lucky` that is why he is chip leader - luck and a small amount of judgement.

???
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

Legend
Ronaldadio said:
Hi all.

As you may or may not know my other threads have been about MTT and the luck involved. Thanks for all your opinions on those.

It got me thinking. Am I perhaps betting too much at the wrong time, and if so can it be avoided?

I have set some posers for you guys. Imagine in all examples you are in 10th position out of 40 players left. (on-line)
140 players started and you have been playing for about 3 hours, u paid $25 buyin. 1st prize is over $1,000 with 10th being $40 (30% + 1% with other payouts between)
U have about 8k in chips, the blinds are 200/400. No limit game.

  1. U have JJ. Raised 5 times bb. 1 caller, has 4k chips (now 2k after call) blinds have folded. Flop 9,4,7 rainbow. What is your next move and why?
  2. U r the bb everyone folds to the sb who raises 3 times bb. He has about 8k left also. You have AKo. What do you do?
  3. U r on sb. U r delt KK. Early raise 2 x bb (with 4k chips). 2 callers (about 6k chips each). Chip leader (16k chips) re raise to total 6 times bb (2400). So, out of 10 at table, u only have sb to act after you. What do u do?
These are genuine situations and I would love to find out if I made the right play. If you need any more info let me know.

Good luck.

Ronaldadio

OK, this is what happened:-

  1. I pushed all in. He called with A4. He caught trip 4`s on river. - Lost
  2. I pushed all in. He calls and turns over AA.- Lost
  3. I pushed all in. Chip leader calls with...AA - lost
Luck again???

The pervious tourny I went out going all in against similar stack. I had AA, he turned AK pre flop. Flop = QJ10 Turn = 3 and to rub salt into the wounds, river is A. My trip A lost to A high straight.

I have listned to what most of you guys say about luck, but If luck evens itself out over time another two weeks of these beats and then after that I should neverlose another hand !!!
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
I still push in each situation, Ronaldino. If I could be caught in those situations 1 million times, I'd push every time. It sounds like you're on a bad (to say the least) streak...but I'm sure your mind has conveniently 'forgot' about the AAs, KKs and AKs that you've won within the last while. Everyone always seems to forget the good hands, and remembers the bad.

Roy Sullivan got hit a record 7 times by lightning in his lifetime.
The odds getting hit by lightning once are [SIZE=-1]576000 to 1.
You were only a 2.4 to 1 favourite over the A4. I don't see why people go crazy when they get beat like that. Beats happen!

Just because something is improbable, doesn't mean it is impossible. These beats are expected, actually you want to see them (I don't mean that literally; you'd rather see yourself winning those hands, but getting a lot of badbeats is better than losing with AJ all in vs AA). This means that you're going in with the dominating hand which is what you want to do.

One thing I want to add is how different most online games are in comparison to live games. online poker in general (I say in general because some sites like stars have deepstack tournaments which are what alot of live tournaments are like regularly.) is more of a fast-paced, gambling, crapshoot with 10X more all ins. I mean just about never would you see an open-raise all in first hand at a 10K live tourney, but i've seen it multiple times in Titan's weekly 10K.
Online is way more crazy; skill isn't just getting in with the best hand, it's outplaying your opponent. It's pretty damn hard to outplay someone when you've both got under 25BBs (which is almost always the case in middle-late stages of online tourneys.)
Another factor is the level we are all playing at. With $25 tournies, it's still chump change in comparison with the "medium" $200 buyins that a casino would regularly hold. People just don't care as much when they've only got $25 or $50 on the line as opposed to $100 or $400. This is why they gamble with crappier hands. Sure they seem to win alot with crap, but in the long run the players playing the solid hands will win more.

I'm just rambling here, and I hope this makes sense.
[/SIZE]
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Fish said:
Even if he has Q-Q, pushing all-in on him gives him a tough decision.

Not that I disagree with with your position, but I don't think this would give him a tough decision. At this stage of the tournament, if he's holding QQ, I don't think it's much of a decision. He'd pretty obviously call. It's the same as we're talking about with our hand; he's only worrying about AA or KK.
 
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