*****Vinyl's GonnaCrushDAmicros 6max thread******

Mr Sandbag

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AA: We can probably bet river unless we've seen villain check/raise rivers with the nuts before. My guess is he whiffed on his draw.

K9: Why check turn? And why raise turn after he bets? If he's bluffing, you let him make an easy fold, and if he's got a legit hand, you're screwed. There is no real reason to raise someone who you think is bluffing unless you are also bluffing. Call turn, check river, and let him bet the weaker part of his range again.

Also, nice catch on the timing tell. I don't have much experience with it, but combined with this guy's sizing, you can probably own him all day.


EDIT: In the AA hand, I meant bet/fold river since he's probably check/raising only with the nuts. You'll hardly ever get blown off the hand by something weaker.
 
Blobweird123

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Yea BLob, when i said that all worse hands are folding(the part you highlighted), i didnt say it like that is what i wanted to happen. It was me making a realization that my shove was kind of terrible.

Thanks for your advice. I really do understand what you mean. The thing is that in that particular hand ,i put villain on AK,KQ and was hoping he wouldnt be able to find a fold(which he didnt but thats being results oriented so its irrelevant)

On a theoretical level, i can relate to what you are saying and thanks for pointing that out. and i sure do want to be prepared for 25NL so im going to try to maintain as steady of a game as possible in order to avoid huge variance and get myself into difficult spots.


the name of the game is : get value/fold when were beat,,,,, and thats what im going to be focusing on.


thanks so much man.

Just one last thing to point out. You put him on AK/KQ which is super narrow. He doesn't 3bet pre and doesn't show any aggression, which is why its very safe to assume he has all combos of KTs/KTo/K9s (maybe not K9o but possible). So while putting him on Kx is pretty realistic, we can't make the range only what we want it to be. Like i'd love for every time I have top pair on 982 and say his range is TJ/67/A8 or w/e and be right, it just doesn't work that way.
 
vinylspiros

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Just one last thing to point out. You put him on AK/KQ which is super narrow. He doesn't 3bet pre and doesn't show any aggression, which is why its very safe to assume he has all combos of KTs/KTo/K9s (maybe not K9o but possible). So while putting him on Kx is pretty realistic, we can't make the range only what we want it to be. Like i'd love for every time I have top pair on 982 and say his range is TJ/67/A8 or w/e and be right, it just doesn't work that way.


Gotcha. stored in memory. very good point. thank you .
 
vinylspiros

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Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

Hero (BB) ($14.50)
UTG ($5.59)
MP ($19.99)
CO ($10)
Button ($4.64)
SB ($4.43)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6
heart.gif
, 6
spade.gif

3 folds, Button raises to $0.30, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65) 10
spade.gif
, 5
heart.gif
, 9
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.45) 9
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, Button calls $0.50

River: ($2.45) 6
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $5.40, Button calls $3.44 (All-In)

Total pot: $9.33 | Rake: $0.46

Results below:
Button had 9
heart.gif
, J
heart.gif
(three of a kind, nines).
Hero had 6
heart.gif
, 6
spade.gif
(full house, sixes over nines).
Outcome: Hero won $8.87
 
Blobweird123

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Now that overbet jam I can get down with all day Vinyl. It's a spot where we don't rep nearly enough strong hands, and we look like we're FOS. It's BTN vs BB, our relative strength is wayyy stronger than the QJ hand, and also it helps that he's much shorter. Wp!
 
duggs

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Fwiw I didn't hugely hate the QJ river shove, especially if we assume 2 pair raises turn
 
Blobweird123

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Fwiw I didn't hugely hate the QJ river shove, especially if we assume 2 pair raises turn

what 2pr? T5/K5? Both are boats on the turn. So maybe you mean pocket pairs? If so, why would we assume pocket pairs are raising the turn?
 
duggs

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sorry boats yea, well we bet tiny and most people are face up? them raising seems super likely
 
Mr Sandbag

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Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

Hero (BB) ($14.50)
UTG ($5.59)
MP ($19.99)
CO ($10)
Button ($4.64)
SB ($4.43)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6
heart.gif
, 6
spade.gif

3 folds, Button raises to $0.30, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65) 10
spade.gif
, 5
heart.gif
, 9
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.45) 9
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, Button calls $0.50

River: ($2.45) 6
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $5.40, Button calls $3.44 (All-In)

Total pot: $9.33 | Rake: $0.46

Results below:
Button had 9
heart.gif
, J
heart.gif
(three of a kind, nines).
Hero had 6
heart.gif
, 6
spade.gif
(full house, sixes over nines).
Outcome: Hero won $8.87

What is your reasoning for betting the turn, specifically with that sizing?
 
Blobweird123

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What is your reasoning for betting the turn, specifically with that sizing?

I wasn't crazy over it either. I mean it's possible we TID a bunch here for cheap which is nice. But idk, why donk? In fact you played this hand EXACTLY the same as the other trip turn board lol.

- Villain raises pre, we flat OOP
- Villain cbets 2/3, we flat OOP
- Turn we donk lead for 1/3ish, villain flats IP
- River we jam

Lol now that I notice this, what is up with this line Vinyl? This is the line a fish would take with both of your holdings.
 
Mr Sandbag

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I like it better in the QJ hand when he at least had a draw. The 66 line is puzzling. It doesn't really accomplish anything. His hand isn't strong enough to make a value bet, and that sizing isn't going to fold out much at all.
 
Blobweird123

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I like it better in the QJ hand when he at least had a draw. The 66 line is puzzling. It doesn't really accomplish anything. His hand isn't strong enough to make a value bet, and that sizing isn't going to fold out much at all.

Agreed about QJ being a better candidate, if any. But for your last line, i'd disagree tbh. We do fold out a ton of cbet bluffs. BTN has tons of junk in his range here. Still don't see a point though as we have SD value and his "junk" checks back a ton here so we see a free river, and usually a free SD.
 
Mr Sandbag

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Agreed about QJ being a better candidate, if any. But for your last line, i'd disagree tbh. We do fold out a ton of cbet bluffs. BTN has tons of junk in his range here. Still don't see a point though as we have SD value and his "junk" checks back a ton here so we see a free river, and usually a free SD.

Yeah, junk would fold but not draws, pairs, or even broadways, IMO.
 
Figaroo2

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What is your reasoning for betting the turn, specifically with that sizing?

Doesn't John A advocate leading out here in his unusual lines....page 69
1. Stop and Go: Check and call a lot of flops where you have gut shots, back door outs, and then lead the turn. A majority of opponents will have difficulty adjusting to this line, and when executed properly will give up on a lot of pots. Mass multi-tabling regulars will look to move on to the next hand, except for the very few really good opponents.

Vin... I'd suggest just make the sizing bigger at least 3/4 pot and up to an overbet depending on board texture.
You don't really have the outs with the 66 though but on this particular low board texture it would probably work enough to be +ev.
 
vinylspiros

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What is your reasoning for betting the turn, specifically with that sizing?



Heres the way i see it. Button goes for a standard raise of 3x. At this point his range could be SUPEERRRRR wide meaning he could having anything from K8s to A2. Most of it is junk though as button steals in zoom are standard.


I am obviously going to flat here in case i hit a set and in case he actually does have a hand so that i can get paid if i hit. Don't really like 3 betting small PP from the blinds although i know alot of people advocate it to be the right play. I prefer playing small pots and picking up speed if i hit hard.


So button goes for a standard 70% bet on the flop and i make a standard call/float because the chances of him hitting this particular board are not Too big and even if he did i feel like i have to float at least flop to see if he is serious.


Now when turn pairs the board. I dont want him to be barreling again and have to fold or call or whatever cause im basically playing the guessing game.


So what i do sometimes is make tiny bets(lead turn for like 35%) in order to get to see a cheap river and also to see if this guy even hit anything.


I have noticed that it workds well if im drawing and also it gets us ALOT of folds.


even if we min bet .10 cents into 2.50$ pots we get alot of folds. (im frekking serious bro).


Because if villain doesnt have anything except like K high or something he is a really tough spot as to how he is going to continue.


Like what are his options if you think about it. He can either flat(which shows he's weak too), he can raise which makes our decision easy or he can fold which makes it EV+.


I know its the ultimate fish move but since its so fishy and villains prolly know im a reg, it kind of creeps them out because it is so odd of a move . It looks like im trying to induce a 3bet and it also looks like im weak.


The purpose of min donking turn is to see a cheap river,get info, get folds, control pot.
 
duggs

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Doesn't John A advocate leading out here in his unusual lines....page 69
1. Stop and Go: Check and call a lot of flops where you have gut shots, back door outs, and then lead the turn. A majority of opponents will have difficulty adjusting to this line, and when executed properly will give up on a lot of pots. Mass multi-tabling regulars will look to move on to the next hand, except for the very few really good opponents.

Vin... I'd suggest just make the sizing bigger at least 3/4 pot and up to an overbet depending on board texture.
You don't really have the outs with the 66 though but on this particular low board texture it would probably work enough to be +ev.

except thats a turn card that smashes his range not ours,
 
vinylspiros

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except thats a turn card that smashes his range not ours,


What? if anything the 9 on the turn makes it less likely for him to have anything IMO.
 
duggs

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Heres the way i see it. Button goes for a standard raise of 3x. At this point his range could be SUPEERRRRR wide meaning he could having anything from K8s to A2. Most of it is junk though as button steals in zoom are standard.


I am obviously going to flat here in case i hit a set and in case he actually does have a hand so that i can get paid if i hit. Don't really like 3 betting small PP from the blinds although i know alot of people advocate it to be the right play. I prefer playing small pots and picking up speed if i hit hard.


So button goes for a standard 70% bet on the flop and i make a standard call/float because the chances of him hitting this particular board are not Too big and even if he did i feel like i have to float at least flop to see if he is serious.


Now when turn pairs the board. I dont want him to be barreling again and have to fold or call or whatever cause im basically playing the guessing game.


So what i do sometimes is make tiny bets(lead turn for like 35%) in order to get to see a cheap river and also to see if this guy even hit anything.


I have noticed that it workds well if im drawing and also it gets us ALOT of folds.


even if we min bet .10 cents into 2.50$ pots we get alot of folds. (im frekking serious bro).


Because if villain doesnt have anything except like K high or something he is a really tough spot as to how he is going to continue.


Like what are his options if you think about it. He can either flat(which shows he's weak too), he can raise which makes our decision easy or he can fold which makes it EV+.


I know its the ultimate fish move but since its so fishy and villains prolly know im a reg, it kind of creeps them out because it is so odd of a move . It looks like im trying to induce a 3bet and it also looks like im weak.


The purpose of min donking turn is to see a cheap river,get info, get folds, control pot.

1/ preflop is obv fine so I'm not going to go over it

2/ that flop is a board that connects well with both of our ranges. its not a board we expect heaps of light bets on, furthermore this hand can rarely if ever improve, and its pretty much near the stone bottom of our range. so I'm folding pretty happily

3/ turn i mean we have 9x in our range,but i still hate this turn bet, it doesn't achieve anything, its lets him take better weak hands to show down, fold his air or bluff us off our hand.

river seems fine but hate ending up there

pre good
fold flop
turn ugh
river fine.
 
vinylspiros

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1/ preflop is obv fine so I'm not going to go over it

2/ that flop is a board that connects well with both of our ranges. its not a board we expect heaps of light bets on, furthermore this hand can rarely if ever improve, and its pretty much near the stone bottom of our range. so I'm folding pretty happily

3/ turn i mean we have 9x in our range,but i still hate this turn bet, it doesn't achieve anything, its lets him take better weak hands to show down, fold his air or bluff us off our hand.

river seems fine but hate ending up there

pre good
fold flop
turn ugh
river fine.



you dont float 1 street BvB on this board?
 
Mr Sandbag

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I don't really like "get info" as a reason to donk lead a turn card. What info are you getting here really? IMO, you're likely to get calls from broadways, draws, paired hole cards, two pair, trips, and boats. I'm not convinced he actually raises much in that spot. That's not exactly narrowing his range, and if you miss the river (which you will most of the time), what do you do? You are OOP and have absolutely no idea how villain will react to a bet.
 
vinylspiros

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I don't really like "get info" as a reason to donk lead a turn card. What info are you getting here really? IMO, you're likely to get calls from broadways, draws, paired hole cards, two pair, trips, and boats. I'm not convinced he actually raises much in that spot. That's not exactly narrowing his range, and if you miss the river (which you will most of the time), what do you do? You are OOP and have absolutely no idea how villain will react to a bet.


Your right.
 
vinylspiros

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ITS RIGGED. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:



Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

SB ($16.58)
BB ($2.45)
UTG ($10.51)
Hero (MP) ($10.15)
CO ($11.34)
Button ($20.94)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K
club.gif
, K
heart.gif

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.90, 1 fold, SB calls $1.40

Flop: ($4.20) 8
heart.gif
, K
diamond.gif
, 10
heart.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $4.20, Hero raises to $8.25 (All-In), SB calls $4.05

Turn: ($20.70) J
club.gif
(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($20.70) 7
heart.gif
(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $20.70 | Rake: $1.03

Results below:
SB had A
diamond.gif
, 9
heart.gif
(straight, Jack high).
Hero had K
club.gif
, K
heart.gif
(three of a kind, Kings).
Outcome: SB won $19.67
 
Mr Sandbag

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ITS RIGGED. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:



Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

SB ($16.58)
BB ($2.45)
UTG ($10.51)
Hero (MP) ($10.15)
CO ($11.34)
Button ($20.94)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K
club.gif
, K
heart.gif

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.90, 1 fold, SB calls $1.40

Flop: ($4.20) 8
heart.gif
, K
diamond.gif
, 10
heart.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $4.20, Hero raises to $8.25 (All-In), SB calls $4.05

Turn: ($20.70) J
club.gif
(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($20.70) 7
heart.gif
(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $20.70 | Rake: $1.03

Results below:
SB had A
diamond.gif
, 9
heart.gif
(straight, Jack high).
Hero had K
club.gif
, K
heart.gif
(three of a kind, Kings).
Outcome: SB won $19.67

WTF? That's gross. I can't believe he donk-potted/called off with nothing. Wow. I'd be quite steamed.
 
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