Villian's logic here?

quick

quick

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After cruising for a while we run into this hand and while it's debatable if I should have continued with my hand preflop and on the flop, when I turn the open ended straight draw/flush draw combo I'm not going anywhere against an aggro player

That said I see this seemingly bizarre play more and more from players online at the micros, they'll aggressive bet their air/gut shots....is there logic/theory to this kind of aggressive play or is it just a lucky donk, and how could I have played this better? I mean yes villian was ahead high card wise on turn, but really..the river delivers straight over straight but why is villian aggro betting JQs on this flop and turn???

IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.50 (55 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): $13.96 (139.6 bb)
UTG+2: $11.03 (110.3 bb)
MP1: $12.58 (125.8 bb)
MP2: $6.31 (63.1 bb)
MP3: $11.60 (116 bb)
CO: $7.36 (73.6 bb)
BTN: $6.33 (63.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7
heart4.gif
6
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Hero calls $0.10, UTG+2 raises to $0.45, 4 folds, BTN calls $0.45, SB calls $0.40, BB folds, Hero calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.90) 8
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2
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9
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(4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $0.95, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.95

Turn: ($3.80) A
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(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $1.90, Hero calls $1.90

River: ($7.60) T
spade4.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $7.60, Hero raises to $10.66 and is all-in, UTG+2 calls $0.13 and is all-in

Results: $23.06 pot ($1.15 rake)
Final Board: 8
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2
spade4.gif
9
diamond4.gif
A
heart4.gif
T
spade4.gif

Hero mucked 7
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6
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and lost (-$11.03 net)
UTG+2 showed J
spade4.gif
Q
spade4.gif
and won $21.91 ($10.88 net)
 
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K

kozong

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flop is standart cbet to thin the herd
turn is reasonable because of the
pre-flop raise ranges (people raise AX & pairs pre generally)
river they got lucky (the only hands beat us is JQ & theres very little chance villain had it from their pre, flop, & turn betting aggression)

fold pre is probably best or maybe raise to polarize range once in a while
 
Gohaku94

Gohaku94

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Just fold preflop. 67 is an absolutely horrible hand to play utg and even if for some reason you decide to play it raise. Don't limp. So yeah rest of the hand irellevand just fold.
 
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Gorblimey

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Only playable from the blinds or button.
 
G

Gildog89

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Yeah, not a big fan of UTG limp here. Fold or raise, mostly fold. As played, fold the flop.

Villain's play here is fine. C-bet on that flop is fine. Then betting the turned ace because it hits villains opening range is fine too. T on river is unlucky, but you shouldn't be there to begin with.
 
vapandrei

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Yeah, not a big fan of UTG limp here. Fold or raise, mostly fold. As played, fold the flop.

Villain's play here is fine. C-bet on that flop is fine. Then betting the turned ace because it hits villains opening range is fine too. T on river is unlucky, but you shouldn't be there to begin with.

Yup, this. :)
 
quick

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flop is standart cbet to thin the herd
turn is reasonable because of the
pre-flop raise ranges (people raise AX & pairs pre generally)
river they got lucky (the only hands beat us is JQ & theres very little chance villain had it from their pre, flop, & turn betting aggression)

fold pre is probably best or maybe raise to polarize range once in a while

Thanks, I should specify this is Bovada so things like polarizing ranges is mostly irrelevant. It’s also 10NL lol. Villian's c bet is fine although a bit bizarre he'd continue with Q high with none of his suit out there and no real draws facing Ace high board.


I agree I should have folded pre but then again the guy shouldn’t be betting the turn like that with air and a gut shot. I’ve seen plenty of play with QJ suited on these boards betting out big combo draws , if anything I could have shoved turn with my combo draw.

Just fold preflop. 67 is an absolutely horrible hand to play utg and even if for some reason you decide to play it raise. Don't limp. So yeah rest of the hand irellevand just fold.


Villian was playing pretty much any two cards. Had a similar hand where I limped in and flopped 2 pair against a similar villian , guy bets out flop and turn with air , we get it in and he rivers a two outer lol. I should have clarified this is Bovada so ranges and stuff like that are often meaningless. Yeah should have folded pre but as played I think I could have shoved turn. I disagree that we should raise hands like 67 suited when facing a pre flop raise, we're looking to hit a huge flop against an aggressive loose player was my thinking here and while results are meaningless short term, we literally got beat on river by the only hand combo that beats us. I was looking to break down villian's thought process here but my thought process in this hand based on his betting pattern was some sort of Ax or maybe a random flopped set which our hand crushes on river.

Only playable from the blinds or button.


True but then again it depends.

Yeah, not a big fan of UTG limp here. Fold or raise, mostly fold. As played, fold the flop.

Villain's play here is fine. C-bet on that flop is fine. Then betting the turned ace because it hits villains opening range is fine too. T on river is unlucky, but you shouldn't be there to begin with.

Yup, this. :)


The c bet on flop I guess makes sense but the donk turn bet is just fishy. The villian is smoked by any Ax and is looking to avoid big draws ( I had a combo flush and open straight draw by turn) what’s he really repping? But yeah you’re right I could have gotten away cheaply on flop. But who are these players just betting huge into pots with air over and over? Lol
 
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Alucard

Alucard

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Why would you ever limp UTG?I'm fine with opening 76s 6max but full ring I don't think it's a good decision.
And you don't have the initiative so you lose a ton of fold equity, and you are just hoping to flop something & then continue
And already losing a ton of equity being a multi way pot.


I think the V played it fine. When I sit at a table & I see a player limping in specially UTG, I'm tagging him as a weak player and try to bully & take his chips all day long.
He's got a gutshot+ backdoor spades+2 overcards so betting flop is fine to take down the huge pot on flop. On turn there aren't many Axes that'd continue on that flop.So it's a good bluff card. Specially since he's the aggressor it fits his range very well.


Aggression wins money. Not limping in & hoping to hit something. This is really bad part of your play that you should get rid of IMO. I think many would agree


Play styles differ from each other so a play that one might seem so overaggro, another might seem very reasonable. Same with passiveness.
But aggression>passiveness a lot in poker
Fix own mistakes first & then exploit others'
 
proud2Bwhack

proud2Bwhack

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Well, to answer the question, cbet on flop makes a lot of sense, str draw plus over cards, plus possibility of picking up spade on turn to give him flush draw too.
But with no spade and the ace coming now he doesnt even have over cards! not sure, maybe he is fronting the ace? But it was unlucky. cant chide you for playing 76s though, it is one of my fav hands!!!
 
bstyles85

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What others have stated. You played this hand terribly. If youre going to play 67 EP you either need to just fold or raise and then told if you get 3 betted.

Perhaps instead of flat calling the flop, you should have check raised him and adjusted from there. He will be cbetting always on the flop.

That's a tough river. But, that's poker.
 
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3betfish

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Villain was cold bluffing and so was hero. But hero didn’t pay attention to stack size. No way villain can fold for having to call only a few dollars more into the already built pot.

No way hero could’ve bluffed off villain after villain initiated on the river. Hope this answers the logic question.


If hero initiated the river, could’ve played out differently. I personally am not calling with queen high in this kind of game and situation.


GG
 
Bozovicdj

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I mean, everyone said it all pretty much. From the V's point of view, on that flop, having two overs and a gutshot is seemingly good for a standard c-bet. Don't forget, he did make a 4.5BB bet from UTG+2 which has to seem a bit strong.When hero calls on the flop it really narrows hero's range down to drawing hands, like JT, 67, or some pocket pairs like 77s-. When that A hits, it is so much better for villains range then hero's range, therefore another barrel is in order. When you decide to just call there, you almost never have a set, because you would most likely re-raise on the turn with such a draw heavy board.
Keep in mind, hero doesn't have a heart, making it more possible for you to have a hand like JTh. You could say that river was unlucky for you but I don't think you should have gotten so far.

If you do want to play such low suited connectors, try and toss in a re-raise here and there to throw your opponents off guard.
Let's say you re-raise the flop. Every Ax that missed the flop is probably folding, most of the pocket pairs are folding like 77-. All the hands like QJs, KJs, KQs should be folding and that is a big portion of villains range. In case you get called, there are so many turn cards that allows you to continue barreling, like any heart, or completed straight.
 
zwbb

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I would do the same as you do.
And I do not think that in this situation, 6.7 bad hand
 
R

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To me, because you limped, it seems as though the villian felt he could rep AK or AQ. With a flop of 892 rainbow is a great flop if you have AK or if you want to rep it. When the Ace came he was in a nice spot to bluff at it.

The river card was unlucky for you, but getting the bottom end of a straight draw always carries that risk.

Would i have played the hand differently from you? Possibly, i don't like limped with suited connectors, i prefer to raise with them so my bluffs make sense if i chose to go down that route.
 
quick

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Why would you ever limp UTG?I'm fine with opening 76s 6max but full ring I don't think it's a good decision.
And you don't have the initiative so you lose a ton of fold equity, and you are just hoping to flop something & then continue
And already losing a ton of equity being a multi way pot.


I think the V played it fine. When I sit at a table & I see a player limping in specially UTG, I'm tagging him as a weak player and try to bully & take his chips all day long.
He's got a gutshot+ backdoor spades+2 overcards so betting flop is fine to take down the huge pot on flop. On turn there aren't many Axes that'd continue on that flop.So it's a good bluff card. Specially since he's the aggressor it fits his range very well.


Aggression wins money. Not limping in & hoping to hit something. This is really bad part of your play that you should get rid of IMO. I think many would agree


Play styles differ from each other so a play that one might seem so overaggro, another might seem very reasonable. Same with passiveness.
But aggression>passiveness a lot in poker
Fix own mistakes first & then exploit others'

Thanks I appreciate the feedback esp the villian explanation as that is what I was really looking for in my question. That said if you’re villian what do you do if you brick the river , you really triple barrel bluffing possibly for stacks on this board esp at the micros? Just seemed super spewy to me and yeah I don’t usually play 67s in these preflop raises so I got myself into this mess haha. But still I can’t see villains line behind +EV long term for the times he doesn’t hit his non heart river that gives him the higher straight because there will be a lot of AQ, AJ, heart draws; and straight draws being faced. I mean the line explanation you gave makes sense if you have a solid read on the opponent and can accurately rep on the triple barrel river which obv here villian didn’t have to do because he luckboxed the river.


I do agree that this was a poor play pre flop and flop on my part and will be a hand I remove from my play esp in these positions. But I can’t see villains play being a great play either, line you propose makes some sense but seems a little spewy.

Well, to answer the question, cbet on flop makes a lot of sense, str draw plus over cards, plus possibility of picking up spade on turn to give him flush draw too.
But with no spade and the ace coming now he doesnt even have over cards! not sure, maybe he is fronting the ace? But it was unlucky. cant chide you for playing 76s though, it is one of my fav hands!!!


He was unlucky turned super lucky , I agree though with Alcuard that 76s probably was a poor play on my part but so was villains although Alcuards line theory on villian is feasible with competent players who are aggressive. The c bet flop I ageee was fine. I assume he was repping and Ace and got lucky or he was spew which seems more likely at 10NL micros. I’ve seen players spew K9o into4 to flush paired boards and I doubt that’s a good bluff line.

What others have stated. You played this hand terribly. If youre going to play 67 EP you either need to just fold or raise and then told if you get 3 betted.

Perhaps instead of flat calling the flop, you should have check raised him and adjusted from there. He will be cbetting always on the flop.

That's a tough river. But, that's poker.


Thanks I should probably fold it pre. As played I agree a re-raise might have worked , and that turn if I was in it again same spot I’d consider just shoving.

Villain was cold bluffing and so was hero. But hero didn’t pay attention to stack size. No way villain can fold for having to call only a few dollars more into the already built pot.

No way hero could’ve bluffed off villain after villain initiated on the river. Hope this answers the logic question.


If hero initiated the river, could’ve played out differently. I personally am not calling with queen high in this kind of game and situation.


GG


Thanks. Yeah villian bluff was either great barrelling or spew. As for river to clarify , villian raised my river bet so of course with a straight here I’m shoving my remaining tiny stack not looking for a fold but a call from villian here . I mean he literally had the only card combo that beat me there on river and he played the entire hand like he had overpair, strong Ace, or set. Queen high villain caught the straight over straight on me.

I mean, everyone said it all pretty much. From the V's point of view, on that flop, having two overs and a gutshot is seemingly good for a standard c-bet. Don't forget, he did make a 4.5BB bet from UTG+2 which has to seem a bit strong.When hero calls on the flop it really narrows hero's range down to drawing hands, like JT, 67, or some pocket pairs like 77s-. When that A hits, it is so much better for villains range then hero's range, therefore another barrel is in order. When you decide to just call there, you almost never have a set, because you would most likely re-raise on the turn with such a draw heavy board.
Keep in mind, hero doesn't have a heart, making it more possible for you to have a hand like JTh. You could say that river was unlucky for you but I don't think you should have gotten so far.

If you do want to play such low suited connectors, try and toss in a re-raise here and there to throw your opponents off guard.
Let's say you re-raise the flop. Every Ax that missed the flop is probably folding, most of the pocket pairs are folding like 77-. All the hands like QJs, KJs, KQs should be folding and that is a big portion of villains range. In case you get called, there are so many turn cards that allows you to continue barreling, like any heart, or completed straight.


I agree the c bet he did makes sense although if we shouldn’t be played 67s like that is playing QJs worth playing that way esp when they whiff turn too?


As for throwing people off , I play on Bovada so there’s no user history or long term stats, can see stats for session but you can get up and re-sit as new player. I agree mixing it up is good when villains can see you or have notes on you over lots of sessions. But Bovada ? Unless I’m at the table a long time and they are too no point getting fancy lol.




Thanks all for the replies and good feedback. Moving forward will stay more focused to not play 67s this way and was glad to get some theory on why villain played their hand too.
 
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