Views on this one?

7

7letters

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Early - no info - it's a folder right?
...though in practice, I think some of us would choose to call/raise at least some of the time.

If you decided not to fold here - explain why.

Would you often call/raise in a similar situation?
Would it depend and if so on what would it depend? Your mood?

I'm not asking for views on cash games, short-handed tables etc,
just on this particular situation.

pokerstars Game #17294638829: Tournament #87654283, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/05/08 - 19:02:07 (ET)
Table '87654283 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: juju1ner (1290 in chips)
Seat 2: Grob_Andre (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: DRoar8475 (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: 7letters (1960 in chips)
Seat 5: Nettech63 (1410 in chips)
Seat 6: gordy74 (1220 in chips)
Seat 7: inakika (1060 in chips)
Seat 8: Dolfan1213 (2760 in chips)
Seat 9: aejele (840 in chips)
gordy74: posts small blind 10
inakika: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 7letters [
ace.gif
king.gif
]
Dolfan1213: folds
aejele: calls 20
juju1ner: calls 20
Grob_Andre: folds
DRoar8475: folds
7letters: raises 80 to 100
Nettech63: folds
gordy74: calls 90
inakika: raises 960 to 1060 and is all-in
aejele: folds
juju1ner: folds
7letters: folds
gordy74: folds
inakika collected 340 from pot
inakika: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 340 | Rake 0
Seat 1: juju1ner folded before Flop
Seat 2: Grob_Andre folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: DRoar8475 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: 7letters folded before Flop
Seat 5: Nettech63 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: gordy74 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: inakika (big blind) collected (340)
Seat 8: Dolfan1213 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: aejele folded before Flop
__________________
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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I call this 100% of the time without reads. This early in a SnG there are so many idiots you'll be up against a weaker ace enough to make the call very profitable IMO.
 
7

7letters

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I'll go along with that WVHillBilly.

I asked this question elsewhere recently and got differing views - can't say I thought either view was especially wrong.

The flip side of the argument was that it's an instant fold and that we should use our skill to win this game rather than rely on luck so early in the game.

It's a 27 seat sng..I don't know whether the buyin should be a consideration or not.

Any more views?
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Remember he could have Ax and be the one who needs to get lucky. Unless he has AA/KK you'll win half of the time he has a pair. I've never played beyond $20 SnGs but I wouldn't fold this at any level I've ever played.
 
J

JoeNavy

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For a $5 Sit and Go....I'd call in a heartbeat. If you're risking a good portion of your bankroll on this game....throw 'em away. It sucks getting drawn on by a 3 6 off suit and end up broke.
 
dj11

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Early no reads. Normally this is a snapcall, but if you are near you BR fine tuning point, a laydown here is not out of the question.
 
eagle jim

eagle jim

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I am pretty much on the same side as everyone else and I am really tight to start a game (forget I said this if you are playing against me). However, I would shove this in an instant. Maybe he has AA or KK but I would put him on a smaller pair or Ax where he has to improve to beat you. My only reservation is that if we lose this hand we are out before the seat gets warm, but if we're in it to win...I call.
 
D

Dr_Dick

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The flip side of the argument was that it's an instant fold and that we should use our skill to win this game rather than rely on luck so early in the game.

It's a 27 seat sng

To call or fold should be based on the structure of the tournament. I'm guessing, but given it is a 27 sng I don't see this being a long drawn out contest that gives you the luxury of folding AK. The argument that you should fold and use skill would be fine in a long drawn out marathon tournament, but in a relatively short SNG luck will inevitably play a bigger factor.
 
ABorges

ABorges

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If you fold that hand in that situation, then what are you gonna call with? AA only? Because if you fold AK like this you're sure he has AA or KK, and therefore you must fold KK too because then his range is only AA, right? =)

Calling here is not luck based, you're clearly ahead of his range, which, with no reads, you have to assume consists of half the pairs and big aces. Think about it this way: if you fold this hand here, it's profitable to re-raise you everytime with any two cards, since you'll be folding everything but big pairs, which you won't get enough times to compensate...
 
J

JoeNavy

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If you fold that hand in that situation, then what are you gonna call with? AA only? Because if you fold AK like this you're sure he has AA or KK, and therefore you must fold KK too because then his range is only AA, right? =)

Calling here is not luck based, you're clearly ahead of his range, which, with no reads, you have to assume consists of half the pairs and big aces. Think about it this way: if you fold this hand here, it's profitable to re-raise you everytime with any two cards, since you'll be folding everything but big pairs, which you won't get enough times to compensate...

AK is a drawing hand. Not everyone is willing to risk their seat in the tournament to outdraw someone, especially someone who is near the breaking point in their BR.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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AK is a drawing hand. Not everyone is willing to risk their seat in the tournament to outdraw someone, especially someone who is near the breaking point in their BR.


ARGH NO IT IS NOT
 
mr_president21

mr_president21

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i would fold i never risk too many of my chips early in the tournament, unless i got the nuts.
 
nevadanick

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If you fold that hand in that situation, then what are you gonna call with? AA only? Because if you fold AK like this you're sure he has AA or KK, and therefore you must fold KK too because then his range is only AA, right? =)

Calling here is not luck based, you're clearly ahead of his range, which, with no reads, you have to assume consists of half the pairs and big aces. Think about it this way: if you fold this hand here, it's profitable to re-raise you everytime with any two cards, since you'll be folding everything but big pairs, which you won't get enough times to compensate...

"What am I gonna call with?" BIG diff between 'calling' and going 'all-in' preflop. I'll 'call' in most cases to a bet, but I will 'fold' to an all-in pf, unless I really don't give a cra* whether I win or lose.

Of COURSE it is 'luck based'. Any all-in call preflop is luck based. When someone posts about their AK loss to the 5,7soooooted, one of the most common replies is 'better luck next time'. As the all-in villain, you would have no idea what I folded. Maybe AA, maybe 3,8o, so it would not be 'profitable' to re-raise me every time, unless your strategy is to go all-in every hand. We're also talking about the diff between folding to an all-in pf and a call to a raise NOT involving an all-in pf.

Money does make a difference too. If it were Chris Ferguson (or any other high stakes player) playing a $5 SnG, yea, they probably would instacall. When it's MY $5, it's an instafold.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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When it's MY $5, it's an instafold.

this implies that the stakes you are playing are too high for you. you should have no problems financially making +cEV plays such as getting in with AK preflop in a $5 SNG. consider re-evaluating your BRM guidelines
 
J

JoeNavy

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ARGH NO IT IS NOT

Really? So an A or a K will hit on EVERY hand? And when it doesn't it will ALWAYS hold up?

Sorry, but depending on the situation. I might not throw all of my chips in the pot while praying that I hit an A or a K and that the other player doesn't hit a set/straight/flush.
 
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JoeNavy

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this implies that the stakes you are playing are too high for you. you should have no problems financially making +cEV plays such as getting in with AK preflop in a $5 SNG. consider re-evaluating your BRM guidelines

I agree with you on this point.
 
D

Dr_Dick

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Joe Navy,

Drawing hands are not typically defined as those hands that need to pair up. Draws are usually to straights/flushes so hands like A3s or 76 are drawing hands. Drawing hands are typically played when you can get in the pot relatively cheap with multiple way action.

AK is NOT a drawing hand. AK is a hand you raise and can continue to play aggressive post flop. Even with an all under flop, you can maintain aggression and be comfortable you have overs.

Certainly AK can rarely improve to a flush or straight, but you are not typically playing AK in hopes of hitting a draw.
 
J

JoeNavy

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Joe Navy,

Drawing hands are not typically defined as those hands that need to pair up. Draws are usually to straights/flushes so hands like A3s or 76 are drawing hands. Drawing hands are typically played when you can get in the pot relatively cheap with multiple way action.

AK is NOT a drawing hand. AK is a hand you raise and can continue to play aggressive post flop. Even with an all under flop, you can maintain aggression and be comfortable you have overs.

Certainly AK can rarely improve to a flush or straight, but you are not typically playing AK in hopes of hitting a draw.

I know what a draw is. I apologize for the confusion, I suppose I just used the wrong word....several times.

Perhaps I should have said. Why gamble so much with a hand that MUST improve.

Before anyone gives me the argument "Play it agressively and take down the pot"

Ok....in a $5 SnG....there are bound to be garbage player who play garbage hands....we all know it.
 
nevadanick

nevadanick

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this implies that the stakes you are playing are too high for you. you should have no problems financially making +cEV plays such as getting in with AK preflop in a $5 SNG. consider re-evaluating your BRM guidelines

I don't play many SnG's, but it really does not matter. Any all-in preflop is an instafold for me. Doesn't really have anything to do with BR size or BRM. The game is supposed to be No Limit Holdem, not All-In Luckem. I'm of the Sammy Farha thinking. Show me cards and I play, and not just the 2 in the hole. there's 5 more hiding out there. Too much like playing hide 'n seek for all-in pf's.

It's not for everyone, but it works for me.
 
D

Dr_Dick

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I know what a draw is. I apologize for the confusion, I suppose I just used the wrong word....several times.

Perhaps I should have said. Why gamble so much with a hand that MUST improve.

Before anyone gives me the argument "Play it agressively and take down the pot"

Ok....in a $5 SnG....there are bound to be garbage player who play garbage hands....we all know it.

IMO you gamble so much with a hand that MUST improve because of the structure of the tournament. It is not because it is a $5 game, but because it is only 27 players with blinds that probably move up relatively quick. You don't get dealt AK often enough to fold in this situation. You should gamble here. Now granted, the OP did not define the amount of time per level, so I am basing my statement on an assumption the blinds move up quick.
 
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sliver101

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ild gamble an call but wouldnt be that happy about it but as has already been said idiots abound and its a fairly strong hand that can improve a lot
 
AlexeiVronsky

AlexeiVronsky

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If it's a top heavy prize pool like first gets an entry to something I'd call, otherwise I'd fold it. The AK gets a lot of value from it's fold equity, while the guy might be pushing something like AQ or AJ giving you the best hand I'd often expect it to be something like a small pocket pair. Just not really worth the gamble this early I think.
 
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