Turbos vs non turbos (9-45 mans on stars)

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Frenzuh

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i think the non turbos, playing 1-2 at a time only, is a much better choice then the turbos... early on they start off the same blind wise, but with turbos the ammt of skill you need decreases based on the blinds, and as the blinds increase (especially after antes kick in) you still have a good bit of people left (usually 5, sometimes as many as 7-8 still in it 9 man wise, and in 45 mans you can have over 20 people still with antes kicking in) which leaves not a lot of people with a stack big enough to really play a solid poker game because there stack is not even 10x the BB... ROI% wise i just feel if you play a flawlessly perfect game on both of them, the luck facter will kick in on the turbos and over a long period of time your ROI% will be at least 5-10 more % higher in the non turbos compared to the turbos.

anyways to conclude, my question is whats the best choice? how do you decide? i thought about it and unless your a player like quasifiction, roachclips, khafan, gholizad or 1 of those turbo freaks who play 12+ sngs at one time, that its not worth playing turbos at all, i understand to them they play so many and since they end fast they can get literally a 100 sngs in on a single day, that its more benefitial to them... but a player like me who can only handle 1-2 tables at a time, that turbos arent worth it for me at all and i should worry about just cashing in the non turbos... i dont know though really, thats why im asking, discuss your thoughts, thanks
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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First off, welcome :)

Personally, I don't think it's a case of turbos requiring less skill - it's just that turbos require slightly different skills to regular games.

The major mistake I see being made in turbos is that people get themselves all worked up about the turbo aspect of the game. It seems counter-intuitive, but to a great extent they actually reward patience: if you don't get involved in big pots without a big hand early and let the other players just knock each other out, you can be most of the way towards cashing and probably just a double-up away from the leaders.

Anywho, different types of games will suit different types of players. ROI is all very well and good, but what you actually need to look at is the $ per hour that you win at the same stakes in each one. It might be that your ROI is slightly higher in regular games, but you can make more $ per hour in turbos because you can fit more in. And at the end of the day, poker is all about winning dollars, not shaving ROI percentage points.
 
Munchrs

Munchrs

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Personally, I don't think it's a case of turbos requiring less skill - it's just that turbos require slightly different skills to regular games.

Turbos require a much deeper understanding of ICM and push/fold value in the late stages because in turbos you are getting to the late stages much faster and dont have time to build yourself a large stack. ICM becomes the most important thing when your near the bubble with 10BB.

Chuck wrote an excellent post on playin the 9 man turbos in the golden archieves.

The regular SNGs have alot more play in them. It requires a better understanding of deep stack poker.

Anywho, different types of games will suit different types of players. ROI is all very well and good, but what you actually need to look at is the $ per hour that you win at the same stakes in each one. It might be that your ROI is slightly higher in regular games, but you can make more $ per hour in turbos because you can fit more in. And at the end of the day, poker is all about winning dollars, not shaving ROI percentage points.

i agree $/hr is what you need to look at not roi.

if a normal 9 man SNG lasts on average for you 1hr and a turbo last 30mins then that means that you will be able to average 2 turbos to every 1 nonturbo you play.

you have a 30% roi in the $5.50 non turbos and a 20% roi in the $6.50 turbos on stars. Which ones should you play?

we can calculate this by using the medium of $/hr. which type offers the most $/hr.

(6.50*0.2)*2=2.60
5.50*0.3=1.65

We can conlude that turbos even though you have a lower roi will earn you over 60% more $/hr at this level.

So if you want to know whats best for your pocket to play then you need to find the average for both the non turbo and turbos and divide the turbo time by the non turbo time, this will tell you the ration of non turbos:turbo if the non turbo side is 1.

for example:
60mins/30mins=2
ratio non-turbo:turbo= 1:2

now you need to find out your roi and times the buyin by roi for each non-turbo and turbo.

eg
6.50*0.2=1.3
5.5*0.3=1.65

Now you need to times the roi's by the ratio.

1.3*2=2.6
1.65*1=1.65

thats how you work out what is the best in terms of $/hr. It should work no matter what type of SNG you play all you need is you roi and average time, i would suggest playing 100 of each turbo and non turbos at the closest buy-in levels poosible to get theses numbers.

my question is whats the best choice? how do you decide?

it depends on what you want out of your SNGs. if you want $ see above, if you want $ and fun then i would(personaly) look above because winning $ is fun. It also depends on how good you are at ICM and deppstack play although ICM is more important in turbos it is still important in non turbo late blind play.
 
F

Frenzuh

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What does ICM mean? and 45 mans are where u see huge time increase really... in non turbos on the 9 mans, they only last usually 10-20 minutes longer then turbos, its not a huge difference, the 45 mans its over a hour longer tho... so as far as fitting more in, i really only see you fitting a substantial more in the 45 mans, because the 9 mans ur def not getting in 2 turbos for every 1 non turbo, i know ur thing was just a example but its nowhere close.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Doesn't seem ICM is in there though :eek:

ICM stands for independent chip modelling. There are others here that understand it and can explain it far better than I can, but basically, it's about reconciling chip-EV with payout-dollar-EV. Some decisions might win you chips in the long run, they'll also lose you real dollars, because they lower your chances of cashing.
 
Dwilius

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I agree with Oz's assessment of the turbos and thanks for general explanation of ICM. I like the turbo45 format where situational decisions are boiled down.
 
odinscott

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Turbos suck. Unless you feel like a luckbox, stick with normal tourneys.
 
Munchrs

Munchrs

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What does ICM mean? and 45 mans are where u see huge time increase really... in non turbos on the 9 mans, they only last usually 10-20 minutes longer then turbos, its not a huge difference, the 45 mans its over a hour longer tho... so as far as fitting more in, i really only see you fitting a substantial more in the 45 mans, because the 9 mans ur def not getting in 2 turbos for every 1 non turbo, i know ur thing was just a example but its nowhere close.

actually i play 18mans and on avrage to come 1st in a $5 18man non turbo it takes me 1.5 hours while taking only 0.75 hours for me to win a turbo. ive won atleast 50 of each. so in my own expierence it is close.

hmmm does this directly co-relate to the fact that turbo blinds are ecactly twice as fast as non turbos?

Turbos suck. Unless you feel like a luckbox, stick with normal tourneys.

why do you have to be a luckbox to win turbos. you simply need to avoid bad beats not put bad beats on others.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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FWIW, they're both faster than Razz SnGs - which is what I'd play 24/7 if they weren't so freakin' slow :p
 
my3sons

my3sons

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