Playing online I encounter this situation very often. People make hero calls, make me wonder if they are just much better than me or they are just too loose.

one Example:
playing 0.25 -0.10 game

A tight player raised from middle position to one dollar
I called from the Hijacker with 9h 7h
everybody folds around. I-m short stack with 11 dollars. He has 24 behind

The flop came Jh 8h 5C
He do continuation bet half of the pot about 1.17dollars.
I re-raised him to 2 dollars.
He just called

the turn: 6S

he checked and I go all in
He called With AK of hearts.

I believe I could have raised him half of the pot on the turn, if he call I could have go all in on the river maybe he would have folded coz we both missed. I understand he has equity.
But was that a good call?
did I play the hand right?

Your starting hand was 9h 7h, flop was Jh 8h 5c and the turn was 6c. Looks like you turned a gutshot straight.

I think you both played the hand incorrectly - the shove and the call.
Sometimes it's hard to get away from A/K - other times - just gotta let it go.
You shoved on a hope and a prayer - with zero equity - so - yeah - I think that type of play is very much a rookie move. Future, possible equity isn't the same as current equity.
Don't get me wrong, pros do it as well, I just think it's foolish and relies exclusively on luck.

Any rag 5 (lol) would have beat both of the hands played.

I do however think what you say you 'could' have done is a much more strategic and logical approach to this hand.
The guy may have called it down anyway - some can't fold A/K - I find it difficult - but, with a shaky hand have been able to a couple times recently.

Originally Posted by tomk7788

Your starting hand was 9h 7h, flop was Jh 8h 5c and the turn was 6c. Looks like you turned a gutshot straight.

you are right, it could not be a five. I forgot the other car, but i'm sure I needed a 10 for the straight and another heart for a flush

Originally Posted by theANMATOR

I think you both played the hand incorrectly - the shove and the call.
Sometimes it's hard to get away from A/K - other times - just gotta let it go.
You shoved on a hope and a prayer - with zero equity - so - yeah - I think that type of play is very much a rookie move. Future, possible equity isn't the same as current equity.
Don't get me wrong, pros do it as well, I just think it's foolish and relies exclusively on luck.

Any rag 5 (lol) would have beat both of the hands played.

I do however think what you say you 'could' have done is a much more strategic and logical approach to this hand.
The guy may have called it down anyway - some can't fold A/K - I find it difficult - but, with a shaky hand have been able to a couple times recently.

I agree, I did not play the hand correctly, but 9/7 is a very sneaky hand that you could win a huge pot.
the thing is that I read the hand very well, I knew he did not have anything. I did not shoved because I was just hoping to hit, I shoved because I though his hand did not hit. I believe that it was a very good bluff, I bluff a guy with ACE high and he ended up calling.
So my question is, is something about my game that gave away that i was bluffing? or like you said, people get marry to AK and dont want to fold?

but I have been in the same situation before, I perfect bluff when I figure the other person did not have anything, I end up being right! but the person end up calling and hitting an A on the river, or just beating me with A high.

I still think that just raising the turn and shoving on the river would have been a much better play. But the problem with that play is that he might try to bluff and raise the river after he missed his flush then I have to fold to his bluff. Is hard to say tho

Originally Posted by drhousethebest

but 9/7 is a very sneaky hand that you could win a huge pot.
This is true - but it can only win a huge pot if the cards come. The pot was not huge until you shoved and made it huge. The only possible way you could have won that hand is to luck out - personally I prefer to rely on solid tactics and skill instead.

I knew he did not have anything. I shoved because I though his hand did not hit. I believe that it was a very good bluff, I bluff a guy with ACE high and he ended up calling.
Maybe he said the same thing about you - I know he didn't hit anything so I was going to call him down with Ace high. Maybe the opponent has seen this move from you before and put a note on you? That's an interesting thought - what notes do we think other people have on us?

So my question is, is something about my game that gave away that i was bluffing? or like you said, people get marry to AK and dont want to fold?
I truly think he probably was just not folding. I do that too - call down with A/K when opponent has flopped a set. It's just a hard hand to fold, but I'm getting better at it. I don't think you showed anything telling in the write up you originally posted, so maybe he just had a feeling, or possibly he was just not folding A/K!

but I have been in the same situation before, I perfect bluff when I figure the other person did not have anything, I end up being right! but the person end up calling and hitting an A on the river, or just beating me with A high.
In my opinion - and others will disagree - and they are correct - and so am I - it is better to AT LEAST have a pair if you are going to make this move. Bluff shoving when you know positively your opponent missed - better to at least have some current showdown value, rather than hopeful future (possible) showdown value.

I still think that just raising the turn and shoving on the river would have been a much better play. But the problem with that play is that he might try to bluff and raise the river after he missed his flush then I have to fold to his bluff. Is hard to say tho
Yes - hard to say - but I think that bluff would be more believable, and possibly more convincing because the opponent totally whiffed and he is staring at a board where you can have literally the smallest pair - and he can't beat it. The only thing he can beat is a bluff, but telling a story rather than shoving after a turned flush "draw" - that is less believable - and kind of tells the opponent you are on a draw. If you bet on turn you could be saying - I have a made hand already, then shoving on the river says to opponent - I have you beat and my hand was made on the turn - reinforcing the story you have told up to that point.
But still A/K is hard to fold - Definitely put a note on that guy next time you see him. Can't fold A/K even when it whiffs.

I answered above in bold.

Originally Posted by theANMATOR

I answered above in bold.

thanks, very good advise.
some people just play like that. But the fact he has a flush draw as well did not help. That is why shoving on the turn was a much better play. But like you said, he might call anyway, hard to tell now.

Thanks

some people just call any thing with AK - silly because look at two over cards on flop likelyhood of a pair is small and even if hitting a pair (agree likely the highest) if someone really betting on three mix offsuit cards they typically have something better than a pair. this goes especially on the turn hitting a pair on river with AK and other player bern betting hard on flop and turn - it is a loosing hand. but player that dont fold AK pften get even less incline to do so if they payed atfer the flop eventhough all alarm bells should be ringing with the other player betting hard on four low mixed cards - just try and take advance of it later 😂

Originally Posted by theANMATOR

Sometimes it's hard to get away from A/K - other times - just gotta let it go.

I've learned my lesson and now play AK maybe only 2% of the time. Fold preflop even Suited.
Too many people just lose money from AK. Yesterday I saw 5 people lose to AK literally in the same game against marginal hands like 99, AJ or 10 5 that managed to catch a pair on the turn.

You were too short stacked to play the hand the way you did and he fell in love with his AK sooted and couldn't fold to your turn push. Combination of two bad decisions, yours and his.

Incidentally, your turn push was a good play.

Originally Posted by twoG1cup

I've learned my lesson and now play AK maybe only 2% of the time. Fold preflop even Suited.
Too many people just lose money from AK. Yesterday I saw 5 people lose to AK literally in the same game against marginal hands like 99, AJ or 10 5 that managed to catch a pair on the turn.

I would't say folding AK is a good play either. I think you should not play it like they are AA or KK, just raise standard preflop, depending of the amount of callers, you can do continuation bet on the flop if you didnt hit! if you feel you want to give up there, just dont raise the turn.But the thing is you need to have a good read of the opponents, if you think is a loose player, just bet hard! if the flop comes and you feel they are in a draw just control the pot, if you figured they missed bet hard. But you cannot be afraid of playing a premium hand like AK regardless if is suited or not. You will hit eventually, plus you equity is pretty good pre-flop.

Remember the position too, if everybody just limp in, bet huge so they fold, that way you have more information about their hands if they call. But sometimes there is not good solution, I have people calling me with 7/4 off suited, hitting a 4 on the flop, with a Q and a K on the flop as well, they will call you to the river!

Originally Posted by tomk7788

You were too short stacked to play the hand the way you did and he fell in love with his AK sooted and couldn't fold to your turn push. Combination of two bad decisions, yours and his.

Incidentally, your turn push was a good play.

yeah, that is why my original question is if something about my game told him to call.
But apparently everybody agree that he fall in love with AK

also the fact that it was a perfect bluff! he has A high and I knew it!

Originally Posted by twoG1cup

I've learned my lesson and now play AK maybe only 2% of the time. Fold preflop even Suited.
Too many people just lose money from AK. Yesterday I saw 5 people lose to AK literally in the same game against marginal hands like 99, AJ or 10 5 that managed to catch a pair on the turn.

You play AKo & AKs only 2% of the time, you have come to a decision, a really bad decision, not learned a lesson.

I think the very loose player was you (no offense). You already have enough answers, I just want to add that I agree with the majority. You were lucky but it was not a good move. Your chances of winning before the flop were 35% against approximately 65%. You paid 1 dollar to win 1.35. If you lose two of three times, and the time you earn just double and little more your money, in the long run it is a decision that costs you money.

Ok let us take this one street at a time. Preflop raising AKs is obviously mandatory, but his 4X sizing is rather atypical for online games. Maybe its common on some small sites, but on sites like PokerStars it stands out. So either he is not all that good, or he was targeting someone behind, who he thought was a weak player making a lot of calling mistakes.

Calling with 97s is not a winning play, and given that he went so large, this smells like a very strong hand (staggered bet sizing), so this is not the time, I would get frisky with a 3-bet. So I would just fold and move on. I would also start with a full stack, so if I only wanted to play for 10$, I would be at a 10NL table. By buying in short you are putting a "fish" label on yourself, especially at a limit like 25NL, where very few regulars do this cap-stacking, that you sometimes see at 5NL and 10NL.

On the flop he should obviously C-bet with his nut flush draw and two overs. This is not even really a bluff, since he is ahead of so many hands and have so much equity even when behind. You should obviously also continue either by calling or raising with you combo draw, and really both options are fine. His call is also fine, and his hand is so strong, he could also simply go all in and be done. This would probably be my choice, if I found myself in this spot against a cap stacker.

On the turn you can either go all in, as you did, or check behind and hope to improve. Both options are completely fine. And his call is also fine. Sure he is not getting quite the right price, if he is behind to a made hand, but your entire range is not made hands. You are obviously playing like this with draws as well, and it would be a mistake for him to not factor that into his decision making. So this is not a call, he loved to make, but it is a correct call.

All in all I think, both of you played postflop completely fine, and my only suggestions are those, that involve preflop. Start with a full stack and dont do all this cold calling with speculative hands. Its not profitable in general and certainly not a limit like 25NL, where most opponents will be solid regulars, who dont spew off postflop.

Originally Posted by drhousethebest

A tight player raised from middle position to one dollar
I called from the Hijacker with 9h 7h
everybody folds around. I-m short stack with 11 dollars. He has 24 behind

The flop came Jh 8h 5C
He do continuation bet half of the pot about 1.17dollars.
I re-raised him to 2 dollars.
He just called

You got no hand on the flop. What you have is a double gutshot excluding the 10h or 6h. He's got you crushed with his two overs plus a draw to the nut flush. You got 6 clean outs vs. his 15 sure outs.

The flop is the entire game in NLH. If you don't flop a made hand that can beat any overpair or the TPTK or a strong draw with something beside, you have no business continuing dumping money in the pot.

Originally Posted by Dusan

You got no hand on the flop. What you have is a double gutshot excluding the 10h or 6h. He's got you crushed with his two overs plus a draw to the nut flush. You got 6 clean outs vs. his 15 sure outs.

This kind of results oriented thinking will lead you nowhere in poker. We flopped a dubble gutshot AND a flushdraw, and if we are not continuing with a hand this strong, then what do we ever continue with other than the nuts? Sure in this case we were dominated by a better flushdraw, but this is not his entire range, and also it mean, that our pair outs were good. Any offsuit 6, 7, 9 or T would give us the best hand = 12 outs or almost a coinflip on the flop.

Originally Posted by jadaminato

I think the very loose player was you (no offense). You already have enough answers, I just want to add that I agree with the majority. You were lucky but it was not a good move. Your chances of winning before the flop were 35% against approximately 65%. You paid 1 dollar to win 1.35. If you lose two of three times, and the time you earn just double and little more your money, in the long run it is a decision that costs you money.

9/7 is kinda a special hand for me, I won't call with that hand normaly unless I'm in the blinds, but I was short stack so, I decided to make a move. I agree is loose, but in poker you are supposed to deviate from the norm so you can be balance.
And 9/7 plays very good post flop. If you notice, my hand was easy to play postflop even tho that I lost.

Let's say I have a much better hand like AQ suited! On that flop, I wouldn't know what to do (unless it was AQ of hearts, but he had the A of hearts).

So, if you mind to answer, what would you have done on that flop with AQ of spades?

Originally Posted by drhousethebest

9/7 is kinda a special hand for me, I won't call with that hand normaly unless I'm in the blinds, but I was short stack so, I decided to make a move. I agree is loose, but in poker you are supposed to deviate from the norm so you can be balance.
And 9/7 plays very good post flop. If you notice, my hand was easy to play postflop even tho that I lost.

Let's say I have a much better hand like AQ suited! On that flop, I wouldn't know what to do (unless it was AQ of hearts, but he had the A of hearts).

So, if you mind to answer, what would you have done on that flop with AQ of spades?

Ok, we all have our fetish hands that are not good but we play on certain occasions (mine is K-7s).
Regarding your question, with AQ spades in that flop, I would have probably folded. Too many projects and possibilities for him, with his standard bet he might have nothing (just like me), but he could also have a pair of aces, pair of kings, queens, jacks, color projects, etc. Now, if I knew that that opponent was folded very often against 3bet and if I had read something in his way of betting that made me think that he is only chasing a project or getting a hand but he has nothing yet, I would try to steal the pot with a big re-raise, enough size so it wouldn't be profitable for him to pay me. And you, how would you play AQ spades?

Originally Posted by jadaminato

Ok, we all have our fetish hands that are not good but we play on certain occasions (mine is K-7s).
Regarding your question, with AQ spades in that flop, I would have probably folded. Too many projects and possibilities for him, with his standard bet he might have nothing (just like me), but he could also have a pair of aces, pair of kings, queens, jacks, color projects, etc. Now, if I knew that that opponent was folded very often against 3bet and if I had read something in his way of betting that made me think that he is only chasing a project or getting a hand but he has nothing yet, I would try to steal the pot with a big re-raise, enough size so it wouldn't be profitable for him to pay me. And you, how would you play AQ spades?

Same, if I didn't hit on the flop, I would probably fold his continuation bet. Because is more difficult to bluff with not draw just hoping for a Q to be honest. But when he checked the turn I was sure he didn't have a poket pair, the board was too scary for any pocket pair even if contained the Ace of hearts.

Thanks for the input

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Ok let us take this one street at a time. Preflop raising AKs is obviously mandatory, but his 4X sizing is rather atypical for online games. Maybe its common on some small sites, but on sites like PokerStars it stands out. So either he is not all that good, or he was targeting someone behind, who he thought was a weak player making a lot of calling mistakes.

Calling with 97s is not a winning play, and given that he went so large, this smells like a very strong hand (staggered bet sizing), so this is not the time, I would get frisky with a 3-bet. So I would just fold and move on. I would also start with a full stack, so if I only wanted to play for 10$, I would be at a 10NL table. By buying in short you are putting a "fish" label on yourself, especially at a limit like 25NL, where very few regulars do this cap-stacking, that you sometimes see at 5NL and 10NL.

On the flop he should obviously C-bet with his nut flush draw and two overs. This is not even really a bluff, since he is ahead of so many hands and have so much equity even when behind. You should obviously also continue either by calling or raising with you combo draw, and really both options are fine. His call is also fine, and his hand is so strong, he could also simply go all in and be done. This would probably be my choice, if I found myself in this spot against a cap stacker.

On the turn you can either go all in, as you did, or check behind and hope to improve. Both options are completely fine. And his call is also fine. Sure he is not getting quite the right price, if he is behind to a made hand, but your entire range is not made hands. You are obviously playing like this with draws as well, and it would be a mistake for him to not factor that into his decision making. So this is not a call, he loved to make, but it is a correct call.

All in all I think, both of you played postflop completely fine, and my only suggestions are those, that involve preflop. Start with a full stack and dont do all this cold calling with speculative hands. Its not profitable in general and certainly not a limit like 25NL, where most opponents will be solid regulars, who dont spew off postflop.

I think he size was not out of the ordinary for the table, people play kinda loose (I called with 9/7 and I'm not normally that loose).

The problem is that he had the flush draw as well, he wouldn't fold that easy.

You said that my play going all in on the turn was good, but on this case wouldn't have been better to jam on the river after he completely missed?

Originally Posted by drhousethebest

yeah, that is why my original question is if something about my game told him to call.
But apparently everybody agree that he fall in love with AK

also the fact that it was a perfect bluff! he has A high and I knew it!

The problem with this is Villan had AK h hes flushing too so realistically him the best youve got is a pair of Js. This is beacause you did not raise his bet you flat called. So hes looking at his hand thinking right i have 6 outs with AK plus i have another 9 outs with hearts so now hes looking at 15 possible outs. Theres 48 cards left in the deck and hes got 15 outs that gives him 3-1 odds hes always going to call.

hi, I often lost on such hands, this is 0 equati, with the hope of luck, it's just a game of roulette.

Realistically though you shouldnt have been in the hand once some 4b no matter you position with 9 7 s get out of there. In your position there are probably about 10 starting hands you can call with AA-TT , AKs AQs AJs ATs and KQs everything else should be scrapped

Originally Posted by martinf1971

The problem with this is Villan had AK h hes flushing too so realistically him the best youve got is a pair of Js. This is beacause you did not raise his bet you flat called. So hes looking at his hand thinking right i have 6 outs with AK plus i have another 9 outs with hearts so now hes looking at 15 possible outs. Theres 48 cards left in the deck and hes got 15 outs that gives him 3-1 odds hes always going to call.

That is true, with his AK of hearts he would have paid any bet. But he could have had another hand, pair of aces or pair of kings. Maybe if he had any of those hands he would have made a bigger bet on the flop, to dismiss my flush projects, then that continuation bet is enough evidence to know that he is behind the flush

Originally Posted by drhousethebest

You said that my play going all in on the turn was good, but on this case wouldn't have been better to jam on the river after he completely missed?

That is a bit results oriented. In real time, you did not know, we was also on a draw, or that he would miss.

97s in the HJ against a MP open I would fold and find a better spot. You have 2 to act behind. If I did play it the way you did, I'm not raising the flop. I'm just flatting, maybe looking to raise the turn....

If you want next level thinking, I would have put hand like 97s in my 3Bet range. 3Bet with the best, and worest of your range for balance. Personally I just like letting this go pre.

Originally Posted by Kenzie 96

You play AKo & AKs only 2% of the time, you have come to a decision, a really bad decision, not learned a lesson.

Depends. In Pokerstars or live, AK might be a half decent hand but at the card room I play at AK is a GUARANTEED losing hand.

Yesterday I saw 9 people lose their stack with AK.

Originally Posted by twoG1cup

Depends. In Pokerstars or live, AK might be a half decent hand but at the card room I play at AK is a GUARANTEED losing hand.

Yesterday I saw 9 people lose their stack with AK.

What is that room? And what did those AKs lose?

The dude had the nut flush draw. Id call easily in that spot aswell.. Ur play was bad, cuz u have only 3 outs (10's no heart) to win this hand. Ofc u couldnt tell he had suited hears, but you probably should put in his range higher suited cards, such as AK, AQ, KQ. So, I think the correct play was either 3bet shove on flop or check/call flop and check/fold turn if no hearts come.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

This kind of results oriented thinking will lead you nowhere in poker. We flopped a dubble gutshot AND a flushdraw, and if we are not continuing with a hand this strong, then what do we ever continue with other than the nuts? Sure in this case we were dominated by a better flushdraw, but this is not his entire range, and also it mean, that our pair outs were good. Any offsuit 6, 7, 9 or T would give us the best hand = 12 outs or almost a coinflip on the flop.

Yes, you have nothing. The double gutshot is only 6 clean outs. That situation it's not like the open-ended with 8 clean outs. Even that is very weak OTF. Eight outs is not a strong draw. In your case, any 10h or 6h gives you both a flush and you'll be gone by losing all your money. Any other heart and all your chips go to him too. He's got 6 overs also that gives him a big pair. If you both miss he's going to win based on his Ace high.

So, what you got? ---------- NOTHING!

Originally Posted by Dusan

Yes, you have nothing. The double gutshot is only 6 clean outs. That situation it's not like the open-ended with 8 clean outs. Even that is very weak OTF. Eight outs is not a strong draw. In your case, any 10h or 6h gives you both a flush and you'll be gone by losing all your money. Any other heart and all your chips go to him too. He's got 6 overs also that gives him a big pair. If you both miss he's going to win based on his Ace high.


So, what you got? ---------- NOTHING!

If you want to fold huge combo draws on the flop based on knowing the runout and your opponents hole cards, please let me know, where I can find you at the poker tables

Originally Posted by jadaminato

What is that room? And what did those AKs lose?

J88.

Usually someone has AK with a favorable flop like K 9 2 and bets big. Someone else has AA or KK.

Other times a favorable flop again and someone donk calls with 10 3 and gets a straight or a flush on the river

should note AK "value" is different depending on where in tournament you are!

in the beginning AK has less value since more people are willing to pay to see the flop and likelyhood of AK being the loosing hand is greater.

later in tournament with blinds pressing people and simply being bigger percentage of their stack the willingness to call to just see the flop will decrease massively.

Basically late tournament most often you only get called by one so your probability of winning is 50/50 or better plus if the flop comes and a player dont hit something they will fold. with three mix cards on the flop a player calling typically have either a pocket pair or one pair or two pairs - so in this case you most likely already have lost or need to gamble on either hitting A or K on the river or force the other player out but that depends on stack and history of other player - typically will be best just check or fold if other player bet

Originally Posted by fundiver199

If you want to fold huge combo draws on the flop based on knowing the runout and your opponents hole cards, please let me know, where I can find you at the poker tables

In Las Vegas you can find me every day of the week

Originally Posted by Dusan

Yes, you have nothing. The double gutshot is only 6 clean outs. That situation it's not like the open-ended with 8 clean outs. Even that is very weak OTF. Eight outs is not a strong draw. In your case, any 10h or 6h gives you both a flush and you'll be gone by losing all your money. Any other heart and all your chips go to him too. He's got 6 overs also that gives him a big pair. If you both miss he's going to win based on his Ace high.

So, what you got? ---------- NOTHING!

I value every bodies opinion, but I think some people are missing my point. My card were irrelevant at this point. (IM TRYING TO BLUFF THE GUY AND MAKE HIM FOLD), what better spot to bluff a pot when the guy only has A high??? lol
That is why my bigger concern is if bluffing on the river would be a better bluff than bluffing on the turn?
Like I said, I had a good read of the situation and my opponent. If he had a higher pair, there is not way he would check the turn unless that he had a set, and even tho, would be too dangerous to let me catch up a straight or a flush. The only thing that I did not see coming was that he also has hearts!

Originally Posted by Dusan

You got no hand on the flop. What you have is a double gutshot excluding the 10h or 6h. He's got you crushed with his two overs plus a draw to the nut flush. You got 6 clean outs vs. his 15 sure outs.

The flop is the entire game in NLH. If you don't flop a made hand that can beat any overpair or the TPTK or a strong draw with something beside, you have no business continuing dumping money in the pot.

Can we see villain's hand in this spot? (I feel like I'm missing something here)

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

Can we see villain's hand in this spot? (I feel like I'm missing something here)

What do you mean?

He had AK of hearts

I was thinking about that hand. I'm pretty sure the villain made a mistake paying your all-in. What advantages did he have? Spend 11 dollars to earn another 11.1? 2.1 to 1? Not enough. Compared to the number of times he will not complete the color (3 of 4), he is clearly losing money.

Originally Posted by drhousethebest

Playing online I encounter this situation very often. People make hero calls, make me wonder if they are just much better than me or they are just too loose.

one Example:
playing 0.25 -0.10 game

A tight player raised from middle position to one dollar
I called from the Hijacker with 9h 7h
everybody folds around. I-m short stack with 11 dollars. He has 24 behind

The flop came Jh 8h 5C
He do continuation bet half of the pot about 1.17dollars.
I re-raised him to 2 dollars.
He just called

the turn: 6S

he checked and I go all in
He called With AK of hearts.

I believe I could have raised him half of the pot on the turn, if he call I could have go all in on the river maybe he would have folded coz we both missed. I understand he has equity.
But was that a good call?
did I play the hand right?

Mate, I think you played the hand perfectly. He made a reasonable call at the end too.

Great!! thanks for the imputs