They just don't f*cking fold and the flaw in bluffing

[guccipix]

I've been grinding 0.02/0.05 6-max cash games recently and the cycle is just repeating itself over and over. I have a positive session where I run good, and then a terrible terrible session where almost every hand goes wrong. When you make the nuts (or close to it) you seldom get paid off, when you have a very marginal spot and call, you're often barely behind, and the worst thing of all (and my main point): they just don't fcking fold.

I often take aggressive lines against players who are likely to have marginal holdings and people just do not fold, even when I'm right. Check raise the turn on a JTxx board with three spades? Yeah they'll call turn and river with ATo no spades. So the conundrum I face is this: the profit you stand to gain from getting paid off when you have the goods is nowhere near the amount of buy-ins you stand to lose from failed bluffs against players who don't know that they're allowed to fold marginal hands. When you bluff shove a river and get called you lose an entire buy-in, when you value shove the river and don't get paid, you only win about a half a buy-in, or less. When you bluff shove a river and it gets through, you're not exactly winning a massive pot either. So in the long run the only profitable strategy is to avoid bluffing and only bet when you think you're ahead. Sounds stupid, right? That's because it is. Bluffing is a necessary part of poker, but how do you get around its lack of profitability?

It's very frustrating sitting down at online microstakes cash tables sensing your very obvious edge over your opponents and still failing. Over. And over. And over. Now obviously the problem is on me, if I can only break even at these stakes I must be a weak player right? I must be too confident. Do I just stop bluffing unless absolutely necessary? Idk. Good luck out there guys.

 

[Meepomancer1122]

You might be adopting a bluffing line that is too obvious. Would you do the same that you did with a bluff if you had the nuts? If you would, people are just not buying it. Then try to make it so that you ONLY raise when you have a strong hand, if "they just don't f*cking fold". You'll likely get paid. Also try to see the tendencies of the tables you play in. Do people fold a J in a AKJ59 board that you barrel three times? No? Then DON'T bluff. On the other hand, if you have an A in these types of boards and they don't fold, bet for value. If you have nothing, check/fold to showdown. Sometimes, doing the predictable thing is the most profitable thing too. Just be sure not to give too obvious hints of what you are doing, such as snap-checking when you have nothing, or snap-betting when you have the nuts. Also, when you discover that people DO fold to bluffs, start using a reverse psychology. If they started betting on you when you snap-checked, maybe try mixing this with your strong holdings. Snap-check on the flop when you think your opponent has nothing and they might start giving you their chips. Snap-bet as bluff when there are three of a same suit on the board. And always adapt to your opponents. Good luck on the grind

 

[playinggameswithu]

Bluff is an advanced move that anyone can attempt. NLH it is difficult to make a pair and people know this. Bluffing is contradictory because of this fact. I only bluff small and medium never big bluffs and its been working well for me in games. Also if anything does not make sense about the hand or your opponet is not disciplined enough to fold they will look you up. Do one stab small bluffs and medium two barrels if in position and hesitation is genuinely sense. AVOID BIG BLUFFS as if someone has called big they are pot committed.

Also bluffing is not a nice thing to do.

 

[guccipix]

all very good advice, thanks

 

[quant1986]

At microstakes the general pool tendency is calling too much so you should bluff less to take advantage.

Even if you don't bluff at all, I think you can still be profitable at micro.

 

[noahband]

I've been grinding 0.02/0.05 6-max cash games recently and the cycle is just repeating itself over and over. I have a positive session where I run good, and then a terrible terrible session where almost every hand goes wrong. When you make the nuts (or close to it) you seldom get paid off, when you have a very marginal spot and call, you're often barely behind, and the worst thing of all (and my main point): they just don't fcking fold.

It seems to me that the bolded statements are contradictory -- if they never fold, why aren't you getting paid off? You should just never bluff, you'll print with your value hands. On the other hand, if you never get paid off with value it's possible that you're taking different lines with value and bluffs. I've felt the same way before and then realize that I only make certain plays (river overbets for example) with value. Make sure your ranges are balanced and you'll do fine.

 

[RiverLord90]

I would stop bluffing and adopt a TAG style of play to a loose passive calling field. freerolls are very similar to micros in this sense. Fish don't realize when you're representing the nuts on a bet and call away when they have bottom pair bottom kicker type hand or when they flop a full house and choose to check on the turn and the river anyways. It can be extremely irritating when you realize your miles ahead of your competition and are being punished for it.

I would definitely tighten up my range and keep the aggressive bets going. Eventually you will catch them slipping and take them out with proper bet sizing.

 

[juninhigh]

Do a significant raise (semi-bluff), if someone checks or raise, just fold. It`s better to loose small with this kind of semi-bluffs that loose everything with an all-in bluff.

 

[SouthparkSith]

I've been grinding 0.02/0.05 6-max cash games recently and the cycle is just repeating itself over and over. I have a positive session where I run good, and then a terrible terrible session where almost every hand goes wrong. When you make the nuts (or close to it) you seldom get paid off, when you have a very marginal spot and call, you're often barely behind, and the worst thing of all (and my main point): they just don't fcking fold.

I often take aggressive lines against players who are likely to have marginal holdings and people just do not fold, even when I'm right. Check raise the turn on a JTxx board with three spades? Yeah they'll call turn and river with ATo no spades. So the conundrum I face is this: the profit you stand to gain from getting paid off when you have the goods is nowhere near the amount of buy-ins you stand to lose from failed bluffs against players who don't know that they're allowed to fold marginal hands. When you bluff shove a river and get called you lose an entire buy-in, when you value shove the river and don't get paid, you only win about a half a buy-in, or less. When you bluff shove a river and it gets through, you're not exactly winning a massive pot either. So in the long run the only profitable strategy is to avoid bluffing and only bet when you think you're ahead. Sounds stupid, right? That's because it is. Bluffing is a necessary part of poker, but how do you get around its lack of profitability?

It's very frustrating sitting down at online microstakes cash tables sensing your very obvious edge over your opponents and still failing. Over. And over. And over. Now obviously the problem is on me, if I can only break even at these stakes I must be a weak player right? I must be too confident. Do I just stop bluffing unless absolutely necessary? Idk. Good luck out there guys.

I've found the easiest way to be successful in these situations is a min bet on the river? I know it sounds nuts but:
They don't fold no matter what praying for the magical river card. Well unless it hits once there are no more chances to improve they are more likely to fold to just about any bet. Unless you bet big and they think your trying to steal the pot. Just bet a quarter of the pot it looks like you hit and are begging for a call. Their too smart to pay that off. It works try it out.

 

[Gaviria8]

Maybe you're bluffing too much, take care in micros because manny players call too much with anything they get, no matter if it's the third pair of the board!

 

[SlowRollAA]

I as well find it hard to get someone off any pair, so use large bets when you do have a hand and they are calling stations.

 

[Queenlimp]

Although I don't use HUD's, there are a few tendencies I've often noticed.
I don't play much cash low stakes NLHM, but I think low stakes cash PLOH games can be similar.


More experienced players will loosely push/call a river against a player they perceive as weak, but will almost certainly tighten up on the river unless in position.
More experienced players will also fold more to a skillful bluff.
More experienced players will make contingent decisions on big draws relative to stack size.


Less experienced players will call more marginal hands, even with nothing.
(does it make sense to bluff in this context?)
Blocker cards don't appear to offer great bluffing advantages in lower stake games and the amount of chips necessary to push someone off the hand can be very risky.
A card dead person will try to get value with any decent hand.
A frustrated person will almost certainly call a raise with any decent hand.


Although, I don't have math to justify; it definitely seems to me that bluffing, in the long term context has a break-even outcome (for those who do it well).

 

[underdog140]

At those stakes we will be running into allot of players calling down with not much. Limited bluffing seems to be the best strategy.

 

[GameTooHard]

What kind of table image are you presenting? Do you raise a similar % of the pot when you have the absolute nuts? Do you tend to bluff on wet/dry boards?

Bluffing with air at 0.02/0.05 will never be profitable in the long run. Especially at microstakes you want some sort of equity on a bluff as people will tend to call at microstakes with marginal pairs, low pocket pairs etc...

 

[braveslice]

Do I just stop bluffing unless absolutely necessary? Idk. Good luck out there guys.

I had the same problem back in 6 max regular. I even had a note on the screen saying don't bluff =) But yeah, bluffing unless absolutely necessary is the quick fix from where you can extend. I would say after doing the same road, why does it work, is that you then have identified the reason to bluff. So in sense bluffs are part of exploitative play not really a balancing act that they are mostly made to be in literature (nature of micros). Also remember that multi-street bluffs do really need a good reason, but for example trying to do those on blinds is quite expensive given every excuse is used to call (and rightfully so). Like Queenlimp says, some people will call anything, so to bluff them you really need to know their souls to do that. So same in short -> try keep your bluffs inexpensive and always have exploitative reason or it's 'your math decision'

Also the meta is really important here – try to fight the flow. If you play pokerstars 6max reg, it's collection of fish, tag and agros. Where all of them have tendency to be too aggressive (at least used to be couple years ago). Fish can triple TPBK/Second pair/Under pocket pair sometimes, tag can triple draw (sometimes) or TP to prevent draws and well aggros usually only raise-barrel with gut In environment like this the calls are going to be looser than one would think. Also the decision to call on the flop makes calling on later streets easier with made hand, so some line variations time to time are more effective than standard cb lines especially when bluffing. Also this problem usually goes hand in hand with some pot control issues, so watch out this as well.

Lastly, this might be related to your example, draws on the board are used as a reason to call to the fullest. Gl.

 

[JBGoode]

Rule of thumb, never get out on the water without a paddle.... dont always need to boat, but you need a paddle....

 

[sheltowee420]

I usually play very tight and bet big when I have something good, and as you say people just refuse to fold. So so many times I am way ahead, make my move, get called by a crappy hand, they slop it out, and I am just thinking, who would put all of their chips on that?, I know that I wouldn't, but they just refuse to fold, so I very rarely bluff anymore.

 

[duson]

I usually adjust my bluffing to how the table is playing. Some players will call even with Ace high so you can't really do much against them if you've got nothing, and other players will fold a pair if you bet on the heavy side.

 

[bakreni]

you just dont bluff this lose caling players just play normal end value every streat