Switching to limit ring - I have questions!

[F Paulsson]

(1) What limit should I play?
...
I can probably safely play anything up to $5/$10 (at least following my tourney win recently), but I have no ambition to start anywhere near that high and wouldn't mind cashing out some anyway. I don't want to start too low, though, either, because I think that will stunt my learning somewhat. My object is to get better as much as it is to beat the game.
...

$1/$2, as BBB suggested, is probably a good place for you to start.
Virtually no online pros play that low, and at the same time you will find some people who take the game seriously. Put differently, this is a limit where you'll find challenge, but not get smacked around.

The difficulty of play increases quite a bit between $1/$2 and up to $5/$10 (I can't speak for higher than that), so getting into it gradually is probably good. I say "difficulty" and not "quality" because while there are still lots of really bad players at $5/$10, they're more of the wild and aggressive type rather than the loose/passive kind. The loose/passive ones are easier to beat for most people.

(2) Let's talk starting hands?

I don't need a chart, or really basic information, but what are some of the biggest differences between starting hands you'd raise/call with in NL versus ones you'd raise/call with in limit? Do you not have the implied odds for low suited connectors? Low pocket pairs? Should I be raising more with high pairs? Etc.

You're on the right track when you mention implied odds, since that's the problem with playing speculative hands in limit. Implied odds can be there against the right opposition though, since some players are extremely aggressive with mediocre hands (one player the other night capped the turn with AA unimproved - don't do that). That comes down to reads though, so as a general rule of thumb, don't play 7-6s and the likes too much. I don't have a chart to give you, unfortunately, and I'm a bit short on time to give more specific examples. However, post some preflop decisions in the hand analysis forum and I'll be happy to look at them.

For instance, what's your play with AJs in the small blind after two people have limped?

(3) Short-handed versus full table?

I like short-handed games because it keeps me more interested, less likely to get bored, and I'm more able to "play the players" which I find improves my game and my results. Thoughts?

Short-handed favors aggressive and slightly loose players, and is what I basically play exclusively since about six months back. You will find yourself in difficult situations a lot more often since you will play a lot of merely decent hands, and that's an excellent way of learning. A full table is "safer" in the sense that the swings aren't as bad, but potentially less profitable. A game where the players end up in difficult situations a lot favors the better player.

(4) Any other tips?

Some rule of thumbs (but there are no "always" in poker):

* Preflop and not in the blinds, you shouldn't call, you should raise. If your hand isn't worth raising, it's usually not worth player. Exception granted to speculative hands in late position after several people have limped.

* Read Small Stakes Hold 'em; understand the process of counting outs and how to play overcards - because you will be stuck with nothing but overcards on the flop often.

* Folding the river in a big pot takes a serious conviction that you're actually beat. Folding a winner is really, really expensive.

* Since people don't generally fold the river, practise the art of value betting. Sometimes, 2-2 is something that should be bet on the river. AK often calls unimproved. Again, reads are important; take notes of your opponents and what kind of hands they go to showdown with.

There's more to say - books worth of more - but I'll get back to this thread later. Need to head out to the lab now; yesterday was a 16 hour workday and I'm hoping to prevent that from happening today again

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

That's what I was thinking. I love finding No-Limit donks and call them down with top pair as they bet 3rd pair. I think that Limit donks are harder to take advantage of because it's tough to create bad odds and have them make the wrong play.

No actually because of the fact NLHE donks will call with anything. And I'm talking that now you are fighting full tables of these guys. So who do you think is going to be the loser alot? I would rather have a gradual rise in my bankroll than the wild swings it takes in the NL donkafest.

 

[gord962]

No actually because of the fact NLHE donks will call with anything. And I'm talking that now you are fighting full tables of these guys. So who do you think is going to be the loser alot? I would rather have a gradual rise in my bankroll than the wild swings it takes in the NL donkafest.

I assume you are talking ring games? If so, tell me what site these maniacs are on - I'll be there to build my BR. I can't find enough of these tables!!

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

Poker Host, Stars, USA, Absolute. Take your pick.

 

[Welly]

This thread has so many contradictions it is slightly alarming.

The best advice I think Beriac is to read a little of FP, then to start playing and work it out as you go along. Get those feet wet at some low limit.

I've got some charts, but I havent put them through enough volume to recommend them 100%.

 

[Beriac]

I'm going to try to answer this by topic to keep my replies concise(r).

the play at the $1/$2 at stars seems very ABC. most players check/call draws & dont understand how their position affects raises.

$1/2 is a good place to start. Any lower you will find more donks sliming the floors than you care to play with. That's not to say you are not going to find them at this level. In fact if your play is good enough you want to seek out at least one at your table.

$1/$2, as BBB suggested, is probably a good place for you to start. Virtually no online pros play that low, and at the same time you will find some people who take the game seriously. Put differently, this is a limit where you'll find challenge, but not get smacked around.

Alright! $1/$2 seems to be the way to go. It should be ok for the various bonuses that I will be playing for, which is just that, a bonus.

I've sampled various tables at many stake levels to gather data more than anything, and I find it's possible to find tight and loose $1/$2 tables, tight and loose $3/$6 tables, etc etc. But the lower ones do seem to be more passive and less aggressive, and with a greater amount of really questionable play. I'll start there. Thanks!

 

[Beriac]

I love short handed tables. The action is faster. You have more control of the table. And control of the table is what you want in limit.

Short-handed favors aggressive and slightly loose players, and is what I basically play exclusively since about six months back. You will find yourself in difficult situations a lot more often since you will play a lot of merely decent hands, and that's an excellent way of learning. A full table is "safer" in the sense that the swings aren't as bad, but potentially less profitable. A game where the players end up in difficult situations a lot favors the better player.

I've also tried full ring and short handed. I think that short handed suits my style more and will also give me more to do (for me, boredom = tilt). Short handed it is!

Wow, this is really coming along.

 

[Beriac]

Regarding starting hands, I have done a bunch of miscellaneous reading online at reputable sources and I am getting a vague sense of how to shift my game. Low-probability, massive-potential hands seem much dicier in LHE as FP pointed out and position, how many limped in before you, reads on the players, etc matter much more. I'm getting that.

I've constructed a rudimentary chart to start myself out with, combining all the research I found, and I'll tweak it when I pick up one of the useful books mentioned in this thread this weekend.

 

[Beriac]

Some rule of thumbs (but there are no "always" in poker):

* Preflop and not in the blinds, you shouldn't call, you should raise. If your hand isn't worth raising, it's usually not worth player. Exception granted to speculative hands in late position after several people have limped.

* Read Small Stakes Hold 'em; understand the process of counting outs and how to play overcards - because you will be stuck with nothing but overcards on the flop often.

* Folding the river in a big pot takes a serious conviction that you're actually beat. Folding a winner is really, really expensive.

* Since people don't generally fold the river, practise the art of value betting. Sometimes, 2-2 is something that should be bet on the river. AK often calls unimproved. Again, reads are important; take notes of your opponents and what kind of hands they go to showdown with.

There's more to say - books worth of more - but I'll get back to this thread later. Need to head out to the lab now; yesterday was a 16 hour workday and I'm hoping to prevent that from happening today again

Thanks for the great insights, FP.

Interesting comment about pre-flop raising. That's been my instinct. Especially if I assume that I can outplay my foes at $1/$2 post-flop, raising to build a pot and/or eliminate players if I feel I have a hand worth playing makes sense to me. That's been my instinct, I'm kind of relieved to see you say it FP as this part has not been clear to me from the basic strategy stuff I have read.

I can say right away that I have noticed the overcard situation several times, and I've found that this is one of the situations that as a NLHE player I'm not trained to analyze properly (yet). I can just treat it as a 6-out draw, but this is a situation where I really need to adjust that for likely holdings. IE, holding KJo on a board of 864 rainbow with 2 villains and 1 bet to me in position, what's my play? Are the K and the J both outs? AK, KK, AJ, KQ, and KK all rob me of outs, not to mention AA and QQ. Or if I'm up against QJ and J9, I'm already ahead. In NLHE, I find that these pots tend to be small and fairly irrelevant -- first stab wins and you move on, making your money in much bigger pots where everyone has bigger hands. But playing these properly seem like the bread and butter of LHE.

Good comments on the river too.

Thanks for this, FP. Also thanks for the blog, which I read pretty regularly and always makes me think about poker, even LHE which I have not been playing. Much appreciated!

I am so psyched by the challenge of adapting to LHE right now...

 

[buckster436]

Cant help ya here, i did the opposite, i switched from limit to No Limit, that seemed pretty easy when i done that>>>>>>>>>>>>> buck

 

[quazar66]

Limit poker is the only game I like because most limit games i think are easer to win in the long run. Sure it will take longer to win a lot of money but limit is just a game of odds and discipline.


Question #1 Limits

This is simple what is your bankroll? I found that if you dont want to add more money to your bankroll at all if your a Intermediate player play what you can afford at buying in with 100 times the big blind at a level + 3 additional buy ins. This will give you room for the swings that you will get playing limit. Some times when you play limit the games it seems that you cant win for a long time so this will get you though the rough spots. I personally play $2/$4


question #2 starting hands

Use all starting hand you would with NL. You will find that you are allowed by odds to play more suited connectors and just plain old connectors. You like short handed so you will find standard raises with starting hands the same as NL.

Question #3 short vs full tables
I would have to say this is up to your style of play. I love short handed but if you like to wait for the great hand to play you will lose more with the blinds.

Question #4 tips

Patience, patience, patience
Limit is a game of mistakes make your opponents make more then you. It takes longer to make up for one mistake in limit because you cant bluff or raise more to make up for your loss with second best last hand.

One tip that may help is that if you find your limit play 3 tables play and just play odds. Sure you cant see every trap but the amount of hands your playing will make up for it. This is only if your just play your odds.

 

[Beriac]

Limit poker is the only game I like because most limit games i think are easer to win in the long run. Sure it will take longer to win a lot of money but limit is just a game of odds and discipline.

That's awesome... I'm hoping that learning and practicing to be a good LHE player will improve my discipline, which is tough to maintain when one mostly plays NLHE MTTs and heads up SNGs!

Question #1 Limits

This is simple what is your bankroll? I found that if you dont want to add more money to your bankroll at all if your a Intermediate player play what you can afford at buying in with 100 times the big blind at a level + 3 additional buy ins. This will give you room for the swings that you will get playing limit. Some times when you play limit the games it seems that you cant win for a long time so this will get you though the rough spots. I personally play $2/$4

I don't think this should be the only consideration though, when starting out. By your guideline, I need 400 BBs to play a given level, which given my recent string of lucky successes means I could probably play at quite a high level, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I should (yet!).

question #2 starting hands

Use all starting hand you would with NL. You will find that you are allowed by odds to play more suited connectors and just plain old connectors. You like short handed so you will find standard raises with starting hands the same as NL.

This one is quite interesting. Your view here seems to be in opposition to F Paulsson (normally at the very least, this should make you take a second look at what you're saying). I'm not sure the implied odds are there for suited connectors. Sure, you can call the pre-flop raise easily, but let's say there is 1 limper and you call with 76s and hit 2 pair or a straight or something. Are you really getting raisers/callers to the river? Maybe, but I'm not quite sure the odds work out unless you're in late position and get a lot of callers. Not saying you're wrong, just that it's position/situation dependent (and maybe that's always true, but then it's more so here).

Question #4 tips

Patience, patience, patience
Limit is a game of mistakes make your opponents make more then you. It takes longer to make up for one mistake in limit because you cant bluff or raise more to make up for your loss with second best last hand.

One tip that may help is that if you find your limit play 3 tables play and just play odds. Sure you cant see every trap but the amount of hands your playing will make up for it. This is only if your just play your odds

I hear ya about patience. I have learned that the hard way a couple of times. You can do a lot of damage playing a dumb hand. Loud and clear. I like the idea of multi-tabling once I know the fundamentals pretty well. First 2, then maybe 3. Can't imagine much more than that.

 

[quazar66]

I must add to my answer to Question #2
I feel dumb I didnt see this flaw. I mean to add this . You are allowed to play more connectors and S connectors then in NL because of more limpers in more hands. What I mean for this is in limit there are more players on the flop then in NL. This does not change starting hands preflop just the fact that you get odds for these hands more often. This is one reason why I love limit games. Well live games are better for this but even online games have this quality. I guess I like this because of having a better chance at getting a hidden monster for cheap.

 

[Xife]

No actually because of the fact NLHE donks will call with anything. And I'm talking that now you are fighting full tables of these guys. So who do you think is going to be the loser alot? I would rather have a gradual rise in my bankroll than the wild swings it takes in the NL donkafest.

When it becomes a donkfest like this, (Costadel is a HUGE donk fest..) You've just got to tighten up.. When your table is full of donks your monster hands get payed off so many more times... Just wait on those hands and then double / tripple up

I use to play the .02/.04 at costadel, 4/5 tables at once and just sat there, I wouldn't raise preflop unless I had AA,KK,QQ... and would just wait on the huge hands.... and would almost always double up, it was huge profits (Granted there is a LOT more donks then average at the B2B network... I'm not quite sure why there are so many there but there is.) I would also limp in a lot... Because most of the donks I see are post flop donk's... limp in hit second pair and bet it hard lol.

It was very profitable, and very stable as long as you don't tilt...

Anyways sorry I'm gettin off topic...

I've been wanting to play some Limit games, but I find at the .25/.50 limit ring games, It's too full of donks... Everyone just calls till the river and it feels like it's more luck rather then anything else... I dunno I havn't really looked into it too much.

 

[Beriac]

When it becomes a donkfest like this, (Costadel is a HUGE donk fest..) You've just got to tighten up.. When your table is full of donks your monster hands get payed off so many more times... Just wait on those hands and then double / tripple up

Agreed...

I've been wanting to play some Limit games, but I find at the .25/.50 limit ring games, It's too full of donks... Everyone just calls till the river and it feels like it's more luck rather then anything else... I dunno I havn't really looked into it too much.

You should take your own advice, Xife. If everyone is calling to the river then proceed from the flop with monster hands only and you'll do well.

 

[Beriac]

Note: Hey guys, thanks for all the advice here. I am off back home for the X-Mas holidays, not sure whether I'll be able to connect from there or not, but everyone have a very happy holidays and I look forward to getting back to this when I get back.

Holiday Cheers!
Beriac

 

[Xife]

Agreed...



You should take your own advice, Xife. If everyone is calling to the river then proceed from the flop with monster hands only and you'll do well.

Yes perhaps I should, I just can't effectivly find a way to cash in on monster hands in limit like i can in NL.. Perhaps it is my lack of experience in limit tho..

 

[F Paulsson]

We all get the same number of winning and losing hands. The good limit player loses less on his losing hands and wins more on his winning ones, thus netting a nice profit from the ones who do the opposite.

 

[cali420fornia]

its funny you want to move from NL to Limit! i am about to make the opposite move. playing 3/6 for along time now and pretty much even steven. i think i will be able to make more money playing NL because i only have 2 or 3 hrs to sit down now where in limit i would play for 6 hrs at a time.
i dont think my BR could handle 6 hrs of NL!

Granted i definatly play way to tight of a limit game to make serious profits, if i loosened up a little bit i could probably increase my win rate.

 

[vatyx]

I would agree with Welly: You gotta get your feet wet with low limit games, $1-$2 or even $0.50-$1. You'll be able to see a lot of hands and get into a groove as to how your table plays for cheap. Also, read a lot of books by some of the big names (Brunson, Sklansky, etc) -AND- keep a log of your play and the players you play against. Do this for 6 months and you'll be a LOT further ahead and maybe ready for the next step up.

Hope this helps,
vatyx

 

[Ronaldadio]

I`ll throw my bit in?

I`m new to limit cash games.

I play $0.50/1.00 but have just moved up to $1.00/2.00.

I`m actually doing well, but I`m not getting carried away yet

My early thoughts are

1. Only play hands you would raise with in middle to late position when playing no limit (unless in the blinds, obviously)
2. Suited connectors below 10 9 are a no no for me - unless I`m in late position and there are a lot of callers (odds)
3. I want to credit F Paulsson for this one - bet your draws. If u r on a flush draw after the flop u want as much cash in as u can get. You will also have the benefit of ppl folding to your bet. Same applies to open ended draws.

Thats my early Limit holdem thoughts guys

 

[Beriac]

Hey guys,

Back from holiday. Thanks for the additional responses. I continue to think believe that playing a solid LHE game is key for me to learn discipline, so I plan to pick up and read Small Stakes Holdem as discussed and keep practicing.

We'll see how much practice I'm able to realistically get in conjunction to one of my 2007 resolutions, which is to play less but better poker. I'm not sure how well LHE will lend itself to just semi-regular play, but I look forward to finding out and hopefully improving my overall game.

Thanks everyone,
Beriac