Suited Connectors?

[dumpy620_84]

As a newb, I decided to purchase Phil Gordon’s Little Green Book, which, for the most part, has been helpful. However, there is one area that confuses me – suited connectors.

In one part of the book he speaks about the ‘value of suitedness’, and concludes that suited connectors only fare about 3 or 4% better than unsuited connectors against random hands. Later on, and in other places in the book, he talks about how he’ll raise with suited connectors, assuming he’s in position. So, what’s the deal? If suited connectors are only a wee bit better than unsuited connectors, why am I playing them? Is that wee chance of a flush (which may not even be the nut flush) enough to make the hand playable? Or, conversely, why not play all unsuited connectors (position and situation not withstanding)?

And, as an aside, yes, I did a search, and couldn’t find the specific info I was looking for. I also considered placing this thread in the ‘Ask the Team’ forum, but I hear enough crickets chirping where I am.

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[CAPT. ZIGZAG]

I believe it has to do with position.

"If you can find any reason to raise on the button, you should." ~ Chris Ferguson


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[duhstin]

suited connectors are best played in late position...b/c if you hit with yoru cards you're last to act and you can bet accordingly towards the players in the pot...but still suited connectors can get you in trouble say you have 65 suited you and another player see the flop (after he's raised and you've called) the flop is 6-5-10...your obv. right off the bat think your hand is good and bet...(which is the smart thing to do seeing as the board could complete a straight on the turn or river)....say you bet and he reraises allin you call he shows AA all it takes is for the board to pair or him to hit his two remaining outs and your out...theres so many possibilities that could happen with you on the losing end while playing suited connectors...so play them with caution...because even though you might spike two pair with them that doesn't mean the other guy wont have you dominated....

 

[Duke0424]

suited connectors are best played in late position...b/c if you hit with yoru cards you're last to act and you can bet accordingly towards the players in the pot...but still suited connectors can get you in trouble say you have 65 suited you and another player see the flop (after he's raised and you've called) the flop is 6-5-10...your obv. right off the bat think your hand is good and bet...(which is the smart thing to do seeing as the board could complete a straight on the turn or river)....say you bet and he reraises allin you call he shows AA all it takes is for the board to pair or him to hit his two remaining outs and your out...theres so many possibilities that could happen with you on the losing end while playing suited connectors...so play them with caution...because even though you might spike two pair with them that doesn't mean the other guy wont have you dominated....

I agree with that, pretty much sums it up. I actually will play any suited connector if there is a large pot where it's cheap to call because the value is good. Just be careful not to overvalue them.

 

[dj11]

Here is a decent compromise;

Say your sitting at a 9 seat table, and are in seat 4. You see 89s and decide to play since you are opening the action (muck em if you are responding to someone else opening the action).

Take that exact paragraph and sit in seat 5. Then you can open 89 unsuited.

That 4% will represent about one seat better position. Say for example you are on the button, and get to open the action. Assuming that 4% per spot, means 6 seats have folded already or 25% suggesting you can open with the top ten plus 25% of the list below the top ten hands. That's a lot of hands!

This is just a suggestion. Many will think that the ultra simplified version of this says that the only hand to open UTG is AA, and then use a figure closer to reality (11% per spot[9 seats full]) which suggests that by the time you get to the button, you play everything but the bottom 33% of the list of hands....Confused? me too...........

 

[KICKIN_ACES]

Here is a decent compromise;

Say your sitting at a 9 seat table, and are in seat 4. You see 89s and decide to play since you are opening the action (muck em if you are responding to someone else opening the action).

Take that exact paragraph and sit in seat 5. Then you can open 89 unsuited.

That 4% will represent about one seat better position. Say for example you are on the button, and get to open the action. Assuming that 4% per spot, means 6 seats have folded already or 25% suggesting you can open with the top ten plus 25% of the list below the top ten hands. That's a lot of hands!

This is just a suggestion. Many will think that the ultra simplified version of this says that the only hand to open UTG is AA, and then use a figure closer to reality (11% per spot[9 seats full]) which suggests that by the time you get to the button, you play everything but the bottom 33% of the list of hands....Confused? me too...........

Confused

Yes

But in a strange sort of way that i have yet to figure out this all makes perfect sense to me

 

[Golfing_Stud]

Ya 89S in an unopened pot is a decent enough hand to open with and try to win the pot by folding everyone else out and if you do get a call you still have a hand to play but I'd only recommend it in late position because their are less players to wake up to something good to come over the top of you with or trap you.

 

[wagon596]

well

I really like playing medium s. connectors if you hit yippie,, if not, adios.
Of course cost and position play a big part of if I see the flop.
Just my thoughts

 

[suit2please]

Depending on position, stack size, table image.... I will sometimes even raise with an 89s from mp if my table image is really tight, but this depends on my stack. Just one example but it all depends.

 

[lektrikguy]

In general a suited hand is only 4% better, not just suited connectors. You get value out of them if you hit the flop. Worth a look and sometimes they can be the best hand. Just make sure you don't put too much money up front so you can get away from them if you don't hit.

 

[dj11]

In a strange way, suited connectors can be seen as what is at the heart of the game. They offer compelling opportunities for big hands, with backup. AA's only offer improvement in a few ways, SET, Quads, 2pair, boat. rarely a flush or straight.

SC's start with the flush, and straight possibilities, and include 2 pair, trips, and the occasional boat.

If we think that the average winning hand is about a pair and a half (??? totally an unbacked up guesstimate???) then the ordinal value of the pocket pair is the only place where the AA factor expresses itself, since the average winning hand is bigger than AA.

Then add in the muck it factor. Of all the hands you can get, the AA's are the ones few of us ever will let go.

Isolated HU AA vs SC's the stats show the ~80% win rate AA gets, but then HU the average winning hand is probably barely higher than a pair.

To me, this suggests the reasoning behind why most books tell you to get in there with SC's in any multi-way pot/flop you can. It also suggests why you probably want to raise bigger with AA than most of us probably do (on average). I know I'm still prone to smooth call with AA. You don't want a multi-way pot when holding AA.

So while the maths show that such and such a hand does x well against this or that hand, the reality is that that 'x', is purely math, and the actual results are human. Was I successful in hiding my flopped straight? or did I fail miserably? And in either case, can I duplicate that, or manipulate that , now known event, to my benefit?

Esoteric Poker thought by DJ.....

 

[MFaith]

I guess my problem with playing suited connectors ( like 89s) is that if the flop comes out with flush draws or the acutual flush, you're always nervous about someone with higher suited cards. So at least for the flush potential, it seems this would be better played against few opponents.

 

[damon789]

how bigger Fav do you wanna be?

suited connectors are best played in late position...b/c if you hit with yoru cards you're last to act and you can bet accordingly towards the players in the pot...but still suited connectors can get you in trouble say you have 65 suited you and another player see the flop (after he's raised and you've called) the flop is 6-5-10...your obv. right off the bat think your hand is good and bet...(which is the smart thing to do seeing as the board could complete a straight on the turn or river)....say you bet and he reraises allin you call he shows AA all it takes is for the board to pair or him to hit his two remaining outs and your out...theres so many possibilities that could happen with you on the losing end while playing suited connectors...so play them with caution...because even though you might spike two pair with them that doesn't mean the other guy wont have you dominated....

Hey Duhstin, just a question on your comment on AA vs 65s on a 6510

board? My stats say if Villian moves in with AA and I call with 65 im a "74.5%"

fav that's only 6% shy of getting allin preflop with AA vs any lower pair

preflop. Personally if I got moved in on and called and Villain showed AA I'd

be happy to know I got it allin with the best hand as a huge Fav. but hey

that's just me.

 

[Deco]

I think the main factor with suited connectors it to raise them and not call with them.
Even with position calling with suited connectors shouldn't be your default move (at low stakes at least).

Yes if the bets tiny or theres 3 callers already go ahead. but generally I wanna be raising and folding or 3betting if someone else has.

 

[allndave]

soooted cards you can make a flush
connected cards straight
suited connectors you can make straight ,flush , or even a straight flush
best played in multiway pots preferrably cheap mutiway pots, so late position gives you info you need. raising late position now adds fold equety , as if they all fold now or to your c-bet on the flop another way to win.hope my ramblings help

 

[Theblueduce]

I agree the book was a good fundemental book. I had to take a look a 2d and 3d time to understand. At my level, I really do not think it matters. I am having fun....Suited and non suited all have their advantages and disadvantages. I think what he was getting at was the strength the connectors have. Obviously, 98 is better than a 54 etc.

 

[PISSST]

Suited connectors are cards you want to see the flop with cheap and either flop a straight or get a very good combo draw. Flopping a flush is nice but it is very unlikely to get you any action. If you pick up a flush draw with a open ender you are a favourite against anything less than a set, plus there is often opportunity to semi-bluff.

 

[bigchriz73]

suited connecters can get you in a lot of trouble. it just looks so tempting to call. in some cases its fine. i would only call certain suited connecters on flop 9-10 up. but if your on the button in a good position then it wouldnt hurt to call or maybe go over the top.

 

[sports08]

i feel suited connectors can only b played to a certain extent, obviously if u have low suited connectors and someone raises at least 2X the big blind ur in trouble, or u could look at it as u have 2 live cards most likely, with quite a few outs. In my opinion only play suited connectors if no one raises and the blinds aren't high for you because of the simple fact that u can make alot of hands with suited connectors.

 

[HipHopStoner]

That quote that CPT. zig said of Ferguson is a great example. While they may only be slightly better then non-suited you can play them harder when the flop is lower pushing out most bigger hands after the flop.

Besides, don't they just look pretty damn sweet?

 

[TinaPete]

I say go with your gut and your flow of luck. If you are feeling them go for it...Tina

 

[EvilEmperor]

That quote that CPT. zig said of Ferguson is a great example. While they may only be slightly better then non-suited you can play them harder when the flop is lower pushing out most bigger hands after the flop.

Besides, don't they just look pretty damn sweet?

This

 

[mets40]

A call in late position or raise in early position with 3 or 4 players left.

 

[mrmood6007]

I honestly believe that suited connectors are best played in late position, because just like Ferguson says, if you have any reason to raise on the button, you should. Although they are only marginally better than unsuited connectors, they give you a justified reason to raise, and you may pick up the blinds and antes without even seeing the flop. Don't overestimate their value however. Good luck at the tables.

 

[MichiganKuz]

I honestly believe that suited connectors are best played in late position, because just like Ferguson says, if you have any reason to raise on the button, you should. Although they are only marginally better than unsuited connectors, they give you a justified reason to raise, and you may pick up the blinds and antes without even seeing the flop. Don't overestimate their value however. Good luck at the tables.

If you think some of your opponents will likely fold to your raise from the button, but if not, I think just call if it will be multiway 5 players or more.