On the subject of "sitting out" during tournament play.

mendozaline

mendozaline

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I thought this might be a good place to find out what others think about "sitting out" during tournaments. Now, I'm not talking about sitting out for 3 minutes to go do whatever, I'm talking about sitting out for long periods of time, or sitting out in a Sit n Go, when it's almost down to the final table, or at the final table for a long time.

I've been playing mostly at Ultimatebet.com, and I rarely if ever saw anyone sit out for a long time, but recently I started to play some big tournaments and Sit n Gos at pokerstars, and sitting out runs rampant over there.

To say that it is bizarre, is an understatement. Yesterday, when we went to the final table of a 30 player Sit n Go, a full 4 guys were sitting out. Now, this whole tourney only took about 30 minutes, so where the hell were these guys and what were they doing.

The support team at PokerStars adamantly supports the right to sit out the whole tournament, but I'm just not buying it. Why join a 30 minute tourney, if you're going to sit out?

According to the support team, it's not an advantageous strategy, and I can see that point on a 5000 to 10000 player tourney, where you have to amass 100s of thousands of chips to place in the money, but I'm not buying it totally.

For instance, if you sit out for the first half hour, 2000 people will have busted out already, and you really won't be at that much of a disadvantage chipwise with the leaders yet.

Or, how about the guy who sits out on "the bubble" while others play?

I will be very interested to hear what others think about this.

Oh yeah, and if it's so natural a thing to do, like they are telling me, why don't we see that at UB.com?
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Missing a few hands in a tourney is seldom a problem and arriving a bit late is no issue.

Sitting out at a final table is insane if the blind structure is anything like normal where it's all about blind play.

There is no logical way it can be an advantage unless the standard of play is so bad that you would make the money before blinding out enough of the time to make a +ve ROI.

What buy-in and structure are you playing? A multi-table SnG that takes 30 minutes sounds like a crapshoot anyway, without worrying about sitouts :)
 
rainsoaked

rainsoaked

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why don't we see that at Ultimatebet.com?
Ultimate Bet cleans up the sit outs after so far into the tourney. Don't know exactly at which point, but they do.
 
dj11

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Ultimatebet I think cleans the field after 2 levels.

As for Pokerstars, I've watched sitters finish in the money in sng's. If the table is full of maniacs, you can be pretty sure the game will be short, and sitting is a valid tactic.

All the rules of any MTT, or SNG are valid tactics.
 
mendozaline

mendozaline

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Missing a few hands in a tourney is seldom a problem and arriving a bit late is no issue.
:)
Yes, I agree, but I'm not talking about a few hands, or arriving a "bit" late. I'm talking about the four "white elephants" at the table who everybody else is dancing around.

Maybe it's me, but it bothers my sensibilities. I'm a fairly formulaic kind of player, so for one thing, with all the "sitouts", I have to constantly figure out how many players are there, what position I'm in, etc., and then what I'm going to do. Maybe I'm not that quick, but I thought I was while playing at UB.

Look at it this way. In a live tournament, the sitouts would physically not be at the table. Imagine if they were sitting there for hours on end, but weren't playing?

"Are you in? Are you? No? Yes? You? How about You? Yes? Me? Of course. How many was that?"

That's what it's like to me.
 
mendozaline

mendozaline

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Ultimate Bet cleans up the sit outs after so far into the tourney. Don't know exactly at which point, but they do.
Ok, thanks. Now that's what I'm talkin' about. Why would they do that and PS doesn't.
 
mendozaline

mendozaline

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Ultimatebet I think cleans the field after 2 levels.

As for Pokerstars, I've watched sitters finish in the money in sng's. ...........All the rules of any MTT, or SNG are valid tactics.

I could accept that (not that I have a choice or anything), IF they cleaned up the table while the sitters were sitting out. In other words, while they are sitting down they have to play, and when they are sitting out, they have to get up.

Then, when they come back to the table, they have to play whoever is left, even if it means folding every hand.

Why did Ultimatebet choose to clean them up, if they were using valid rules? Probably, because PH told them, "hey, that's B.S., let's get them the heck out of the way."
 
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bush2008

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i would never ever sit out, but i cant imagine anyone objecting to those who did.
 
mendozaline

mendozaline

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i would never ever sit out, but i cant imagine anyone objecting to those who did.
I'm not objecting to someone sitting out. That's too personal. What I'm objecting to is the fact that his Image is still sitting AT the table while he's in the state of "sitting out". I'm objecting to PokerStars method of running their website and tournaments.
 
pigpen02

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I love sitouts. They never crack my aces, they contribute blinds and fold, they keep me from having to pay blinds so often, and they NEVER go all in with Jack-Ten off suit.

I think Ultimatebet "cleaning up the table" is a crock! I paid the entry fee, even if it is just checking a box, and should be able to join the tournament whenever I feel like it. I missed the start-time to one because I remembered wrong by fifteen minutes. When I sat down to play, the first blind was over and I was gone. Pshaw!

Folding every hand is not forbidden. In a physical tournament, someone could sit there and fold every hand with impunity. Could you play against that? What if they always looked at their cards and folded every hand until you got KK and they then called with AA? Would you say, "You haven't played up 'til now, you have to leave."?

I know in the wsop somebody missed the start time by hours because of forgetting what time the start was. He was allowed to sit and assume his slightly smaller stack (because blind sizes are so tiny compared to SnG) and proceded. Would you force him to do something different than normal play from that point on? I think not.
 
mendozaline

mendozaline

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I love sitouts. They never crack my aces, they contribute blinds and fold, they keep me from having to pay blinds so often, and they NEVER go all in with Jack-Ten off suit.

Ok, that's another point of view, I guess. And you're certainly entitled to that opinion. Plus, apparently PokerStars agrees with you.

I think Ultimatebet "cleaning up the table" is a crock!
I disagree. I think Ultimatebet is thinking this through in a logical manner.

Folding every hand is not forbidden. In a physical tournament, someone could sit there and fold every hand with impunity.
It would never even occur to me to care if someone wanted to fold every hand. We're not talking about a person folding every hand, we're talking about software folding the hand for him because he's in this semi-real state of "sitting out", while his ghost is still at the table.

Could you play against that?
Absolutely.

What if they always looked at their cards and folded every hand until you got KK and they then called with AA? Would you say, "You haven't played up 'til now, you have to leave."?
Of course not. If he folded everyhand and then called my KK with AA, my first thought would be "Uh oh".

Would you force him to do something different than normal play from that point on? I think not.
Again, no of course not. I'm not objecting to his sitting out, what I'm objecting to is his being at the table in the state of sitting out.
 
Irexes

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Sites only clear out non attendees in freerolls as far as I'm aware, in a pay tourney it wouldn't happen.

Again, what are you playing that has multi-tables and is over in 30 minutes? and at what buy-in?
 
pigpen02

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It would never even occur to me to care if someone wanted to fold every hand. We're not talking about a person folding every hand, we're talking about software folding the hand for him because he's in this semi-real state of "sitting out", while his ghost is still at the table.

Turn off the avatars.
 
dj11

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Sit outs are valid in live play, UB is actually the abnormality.
 
P

phatjose

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The only thing I hate about sit outs is having to wait the 15 seconds for each of them to be declared as "sitting out" on the first round of action. I actually managed to end up at a table full of sit out people one time in an UB freeroll in the mid rounds. Needless to say I blinded them out and rode that to the money.
 
Insomniac_1006

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I just steal their blinds, and then watch them--very carefully--when they join the action which is usually around the bubble.

Some very tight players will sit there and watch, and wait, for only premium hands.

They allow late arrivals at live tourneys, if they didn't, we probably wouldn't know who Phil Helmuth (sp?) is.
 
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mendozaline

mendozaline

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I appreciate all the feedback. I have a good understanding of the sides of the argument, now. All that's left is to see if Ultimatebet gets back to me with an answer as to why they decided to do it the way they do it. It could be freeroll vs. cash buy in on Ultimatebet, but that doesn't explain why PokerStars doesn't do it in their freerolls and UB does (purge the sitout's, that is). Like I said, that will be interesting to know the why of.
 
mendozaline

mendozaline

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which is usually around the bubble.

Some very tight players will sit there and watch, and wait, for only premium hands.
That's basically what I don't like about it. Sure their stack size is smaller than if they played and won along the way, but while they don't have a big stack, they're still alive. I think they're making a judgement call as to which is more dangerous, trying to win alot of chips to compete with the maniacs who won chips with their play, and risk busting out, versus surviving to the end where the maniacal play is somewhat more subdued, and maybe they believe they can win it all that way, if they sidestep the Jackals.

I'm just guessing, and I agree with everyone that they are not breaking any rules, it just seems to me like finding a way to win regardless of what you're up against, is a more shall we say "noble" way to approach the game.

I could be wrong, though. Maybe I'll try sitting out as a tactic myself one day.
 
Insomniac_1006

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I prefer the noble path myself. I see sitting out much in the same light as I would see a marathon runner who came in for the last mile of the race (if that were legal) But we are playing poker here, where people have to find the edge that works for them. :smile:

Played a S&G this afternoon with someone that I know to be a post and folder, it was really ticking someone else off at the table. After the field had thinned to five, she started playing. She made it to third, and then I had the honor of busting her out. She was happy with third, I was happy with her chips.
 
relaxin0001

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sitouts

Sitouts are a part of online gaming that you as a serious player
should take full advantage of.;) Especially at a final table , i mean i usually play to win so if those guys are happy with where there at
just makes it easier for me to take there blinds and go for gold:rolleyes:
cheers and good luck at the tables.
 
zachvac

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sitting out is the EXACT SAME THING as someone being there and simply check-folding every hand. What's wrong with that? Why would it be illegal? Just think, they're check-folding AA, KK, AK, etc. Check-folding isn't illegal, why would sitting out be? If you can sit out to the money, and you're busting before the money, you need to relax and play fewer hands.
 
Insomniac_1006

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coming into a marathon on the last leg is illegal, not posting and folding.

If you are present for the whole game and choose not to play. Fine. But, yes there is a big difference between folding every hand, being at the table, as opposed to not being there. (at least in my book anyway)

To each their own...
 
DaFrench1

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Maybe you should sit-out more!

I am a regular sitter-outer. It is a perfectly valid tactic as far as I'm concerned. I have stack targets that I aim for in tournament play and if I am above those targets I will sit-out and take my own break. This is particularly in tourneys with large field sizes and because my first aim is to make the bubble and the money with a playable stack, while you are sitting out the field narrows through natural selection and also I see it as reducing my chances of getting involved in those hands that seem so attractive but then end up costing you most of your stack and eventually your tourney life. The real action is late in the tourneys and at that stage you can make a mid stack into a top stack in 3 hands because the blinds are so high. I prefer sitting out to folding every hand to remove the temptation to play. If I miss an AA while sitting out? it doesn't matter.
 
Jack Daniels

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yes there is a big difference between folding every hand, being at the table, as opposed to not being there.
What exactly is the difference that you see? If we were playing at the same table and I was actually there clicking fold on every single hand just like it was on auto-fold, how would you 1) really be able to tell the difference or be sure it was me or not and 2) how does being their or not and folding every hand without fail actually differ?
 
Insomniac_1006

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What exactly is the difference that you see? If we were playing at the same table and I was actually there clicking fold on every single hand just like it was on auto-fold, how would you
1) really be able to tell the difference or be sure it was me or not and
2) how does being their or not and folding every hand without fail actually differ?

1. If we were playing on line, no I would not be able to tell if you were sitting there participating in the game, or off in the other room watching a game on TV.

2. Being there, or not.

If you can fold your way into the money, more power to you.
 
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