This is a discussion on Slow playing ... for or against?. within the online poker forums, in the Cash Games section; Obviously there are two sides to this debate. Some see slow playing as a strategic move, while others simply dismiss it with the advice of
Obviously there are two sides to this debate. Some see slow playing as a strategic move, while others simply dismiss it with the advice of playing aggressively if you have the hand.
I was recently made a fool when in an MTT, the player sitting to my right REALLY slow played his hand. He had pocket Aces and the flop was ragged and a rainbow... something like 6-4-9. I had Ace-Nine so I bet semi-aggressively whenever said opponent ALWAYS checked it over to me. A 2 fell with the Turn and again he checks and I bet a decent amount. Then comes the ever surprising River card... fittingly an the last Ace fell. He again checks if over to me and obviously I make a larger bet this time around having top two pair. He then re-raises. I had this guy figured for some egotistical, "you can't bully me", kind of player so I assumed he was simple trying to throw something back at me to scare me away. Wasn't I wrong...
My question isn't really how well or badly I played this hand, since all I could give you was a brief summary, etc. It's more as to where you stand and how you feel about slow playing?. Especially a monster such as his pocket Aces?...
Pocket Aces are only a monster pre-flop (or when you get lucky & river a set w/ no straight or flush possibilities on the board, like your villian did). Whether I slow play or not generally has more to do with who I'm playing against & my position at the table. For example, say I flop a set with an overaggresive player sitting to my left. That's a great time to slowplay and let him bet my hand for me, but even then I rarely slowplay all the way to the river. About the only hands I'll slowplay to the river are real monsters (full house, quads, nut flush, etc.), and I don't even do that all the time as sometimes if you make it look like you're c-betting you can get someone to try and make a move with an overpair or the likes. This hand is from a tourney I played yesterday and illustrates that point well:
Full Tilt Poker Game #7296407084: The Ferguson (54739444), Table 109 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:46:25 ET - 2008/07/20
Seat 1: zagsgrad03 (5,435)
Seat 2: mparker876 (3,465)
Seat 3: bodeli (1,273)
Seat 4: jubrkhka (837)
Seat 5: studly01 (1,810)
Seat 6: taw420 (885), is sitting out
Seat 7: shivamanila (530), is sitting out
Seat 8: Inzany408 (540), is sitting out
Seat 9: og1205 (8,210)
Inzany408 posts the small blind of 60
og1205 posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mparker876 [6s 6c]
mparker876 raises to 360
bodeli has 15 seconds left to act
studly01 calls 360
*** FLOP *** [6d 2c 2h]
mparker876 bets 600
studly01 raises to 1,450, and is all in
mparker876 calls 850
studly01 shows [Ac Kd]
mparker876 shows [6s 6c]
*** TURN *** [6d 2c 2h] 4♠
*** RIVER *** [6d 2c 2h 4s] 3♦
studly01 shows a pair of Twos
mparker876 shows a full house, Sixes full of Twos
mparker876 wins the pot (3,800) with a full house, Sixes full of Twos
studly01 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,800 | Rake 0
Board: [6d 2c 2h 4s 3d]
Seat 1: zagsgrad03 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: mparker876 showed [6s 6c] and won (3,800) with a full house, Sixes full of Twos
Seat 3: bodeli didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: jubrkhka didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: studly01 showed [Ac Kd] and lost with a pair of Twos
Seat 6: taw420 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: shivamanila (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Inzany408 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: og1205 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Since it was fairly common for me to c-bet about 2/3 the pot after a pre flop raise I went ahead and did it, even though I flopped a boat. Lo and behold the guy comes over the top w/ AK and is drawing nearly dead. So overall I think the slowplay should be based on the situation & I rarely slowplay a big pp preflop unless I'm in the pot with only one or two other players, it's just too dangerous.
Sure, I've been trapped by people who slow-play AA, but those situations are rare. More often, my hand improves before the slow-player springs the trap, and he loses a big pot.
The hand you discussed is atypical. Aces generally don't improve, and the majority of the time you are much better to get money into the pot with the better hand.
I'll only slow-play if:
a) I have a strong hand that has a low chance of being cracked.
b) I have reason to believe my opponent is going to do the betting for me OR I think my opponent has nothing, and I want him to catch up just a little.
Unless I flop trips with AA, I don't think it's a suitable candidate for slow-playing. And, I'm only ever checking with them preflop with the intention of coming over the top of a raise. Maybe in certain situations, or heads-up at the end of a tournaments, but I won't slow-play AA as a standard play.
__________________ Poker Goals achieved: 117 of 178 (65.7%)
All too often I have seen it happen to other players and myself..I slow played Nut Flush on the flop(AdKd) flop Jd9d3d.... I let the other guy do the betting,called his bet on flop , called him on turn (4s) and pushed all in on river,(9h) He flips over 9J..he caught runner runner for a boat.
I would rather bet a big hand, BIG and take a small pot if they all fold, than slowplay and get sucked out on and lose a BIG pot.
Another hand I remember holding pocket rockets, caught the set on the flop but there were also 2 spades on the flop so i pushed. Got only 1 caller..shortstack who called with a pair. I won the hand but someone else asked WHY would i bet so high with a monster like that and not try to trap? My response: if your holding 2 spades for the flush draw I am going to make you pay to see it and not slowplay and let you suck out on me. He had to agree with that.....just my 2 cents worth.
In my opinion it is always going to depend on the situation of your position, chip stack, other players and everything. I tried slow playing before where it has totally bit me in the you know where and other times when it worked. Probably more times for bad then good. All you can do is view the situation and go from there.
In my opinion slow playing is best when you are on the button and everyone folds to you. This will leave it a 3 handed game you BB and SB. The odds are much more in your favor than to have someone with 2 random cards to out flop you. I tend to raise with 2 random cards on the button and flat call with high pocket pairs 3 handed.
I say raise it enough to bring in one or two players. Then the flop will tell how to play it from there. If nothing on the flop scares you slow play it, if it brings flush or straight possibilities then get aggressive-If the calling player is on a draw make it expensive for him/her to see the next card. Do not let them draw out cheaply on you.
Slow playing is very dangerous because players see the flop cheap and when you have aces you don't want too many people in the pot because you will probably get your aces cracked. Just my 2 cents
Here are the criteria for slowplaying to be positive EV/"correct":
Originally Posted by aliengenius
I don't get it? Opponent likes flush draw, board has flush draw, but you want to slowplay?
Anyway, here are Skansky's criteria of slowplaying (from Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players):
1. our hand is very strong
2. you will probably chase everyone out by betting
3. the free card has good possibility to help make a second best hand
4. free card has little chance of outdrawing you
5. the pot is not that large
You need to have ALL of the above (not just one/a few) for the situation to dictate a slowplay.
Clearly not the case here.
Also, as pointed out above:
1. If you want your continuation bets to garner respect, you have to bet when you hit, not just when you miss.
2. Any flush draw will put $ in while there is a chance to draw out, but will NOT put any money in on the river if they missed. i.e., if you wait to bet until your are sure you have the best hand (flush missed), then you will not get any money.
3. Any weaker ace is likely to pay off here to any bets you make.
The key really (imo) is number two: "you will probably chase everyone out by betting": if your weak opponents are willing to pay you off with any pair (or chase any draw for any bet), then just bet your hand. Value town, baby!
The way I'm reading most of this thread, you all seem to be looking at this as a do/don't do choice. The slowplay is a tactic, one play. It should be a part of any player's game, under conditions such as described by AG. It is generally not a play for big pp preflop. And, it's not a hard and fast rule at any time. Just as you don't c-bet, or min raise everytime, you don't slowplay. It has it's uses, under the right conditions it's valid strategy. It is, IMO, one of the most misused and overused plays of all.
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People who live in glass houses....shouldn't become nudists.
It should only be used here and there. Even then you have to be careful.
Friday night at Foxwoods ($1/$2 NL) I slow played KK because there was this superubber aggressive guy sitting to my left. He reraised every pot for about 2 hours straight. I was hoping he'd reraise and I'd 3 or 4 bet him. Instead for the 1st hand all night he didn't reraise. The flop hit 994. I bet he called. The turn was a Q and he pushed all in. I went in the hole for some time because he was caught bluffing several times. I looked over and said you either have QQ or nothing. I called and he showed 95o. I couldn't put him on QQ because he was too aggressive to just call with that hand. I didn't seem likely he had a 9 either.
Here is the odd thing. He would have most likely called if I reraised and I would have lost it anyway. Sometimes the luckboxes are just going to win!
Either way the slow play was the wrong move. If your a tight player it is tuff to get action if you raise, but if you play it slow bad things can happen. I'd rather raise ALL the time and hopefully get those with 95o to fold and the guy with AK, AQ, QQ and below call. If someone has AA vs. my KK then all the power to them, but to then have to worry about 95o, 6h8h makes it really hard to play poker. It's better to win a small pot then loose a big one. Are there situation to slow play? This should only be used in the perfect situation, but there are not too many of those.
I'm a big fan of slow playing when its beneficial. If I have a solid hand and there is someone at the table who bets big (to steal pot) every hand, I give them the rope and just call until the end. The only time I don't do this is if on the flop, turn, or river the cards possibly driving someone to a better hand.
Are 2 black aces and 2 red aces good?
You can't compare a $100 tournament or a $1-$2 NL table to a $10,000 tournament or $25-$50 NL game. People at low stakes games have nothing to lose. They will call with anything. If they xan play $50 or more on a hand of blackjack then what is stopping them from calling every single raised pot in poker?
If you are in a cheap buy in tournament, people are going to call with everything they can to get chips. The problem is that some people are playing with a scared bankroll and will get burnt every time. I have had a guy call my $25 re-raise at a $1-$2 table with 4-2 OS when I had AA. He flopped bottom pair and called the all in by the other guy of course I called too. the other guy had QQ. He ended up sucking out on both of us by hitting a 4 on the river.
That was the last time I lost all my chips with AA. I have thrown them away many times on the flop, turn or river. Learning how to let them go has made me more successful.
I rarely slow-play a big hand (QQ, KK, AA) preflop - if they're gonna out-flop me, they're gonna pay for it up front.
I also rarely slow-play hitting the big pair on the flop, even if I have a great kicker. Same thing if the flop gives me a flush, unless it's the nut-flush, because if someone has a draw with a bigger card of the suit, I don't want to give them a free card.
But if I hit trips or a str8 on the flop, I'll slow play that at least to the turn.
Only now I have to NOT play that way, because I've just told you how to bust me. So ignore all the above.
i have to say i adjust to the table im at. there are times that agresssion is the answer if the table is playing tight. there are also times where slowplaying is better. say if your at a table full of shoving maniacs. they probably arent gonna care that your shoving with a big hand, due to the fact that they cant see past their own hand. really i dont think there is a one size fits all answer here. i personally feel its better to do whats right at the time at that table. i am wary of becoming predictable regardless of what hand i may have.
i agree with ylongface, i like to play that way sometimes get the nickname calll station but ive learned to play that way in internet poker. you usually get a-a cracked by someone if you play it aggressive just because most players pay no attention to how you play and pay alot of attention to there hit on the flop the first call should have been warning to you if hes a tight player
i think slow playing is a part of poker, not a real big fan of it causes the draws that come with flops and u have aa, usually i will raise unless i know the person behind me is playing wild then most times i let them stick there foot in their mouth
With they way sites are giving the donkeys and advantage on solid players I say : RAISE IT!!!! I would only slow play if i knew i had the nutz and the other player was betting into it. then you simply smooth call and wait for all of his/her chips
To me, it's really not about the kind of cards you are playing but the players you are playing against. For me, sitting in a table of loose-aggressive players is practically a dream opportunity to slow play just about anything.
I will play tight and make some folds to raises to get the table image of a weak player on checks. There is nothing I love more than having the aggressive players try and walk all over me when i have a monster hand
I think you can second guess yourself about every play you make whether you get the chips or not.He played the hand very well and you just have to tip your hat to him.Just remember next time to be suspicious,maybe check the turn and see if your opponent magically fires into you on the river.More often then not it's going to be a value bet if he's got it and an outragous amount if he doesn't.
I don't slow play pre-flop. If you have a high PP, in my opinion, you have nothing. A decent bet should hopefully eliminate most of the competition who will beat you with a 2-3 off. Slow play after that , of course, depends on the flop.
Well I also switch it up it really depends on how the other people r playing, you know them who go allin on nothing and hav the luck of drawing on there crapie cards but thats them lucky asses and that usualy dont last long as they always loose in the end. but even when you have a pr As or face card pr it just depends on the other persons playing they may call you even though its not right, They fell lucky or I'v been told 78 suited r my fav cards and i never loose on them. so I hav found that a person is going to play the way they play and hopfully i get on a table with people who play with some kind of sence. good luck at the tables.
I think slow playing is best when you can be confident your hand is very strong. I don't like to slow play pocket pairs because it is too easy for someone to hang around and get 2 pair or better. I usually only slow play if I have a straight or better after the flop. The biggest risk I encounter is ending up with a small pot. I'm always hoping someone will catch a decent hand so they bet big.
i find that when i slow play certain hands it gets me in trouble at showdown time...i dont wanna call someone down with two pair and then find he made a straight on the turn or river and figuring i couldve got the person out if i bet or raised him on the flop. its frustrating cause i find that on online poker, you cant really slow play a hand unless you flop a monster hand.
I am a fan of slowplaying, i think its great to trap people although one thing.
If say i had AA and the flop was
A 2 9 when the 2 and the 9 are hearts i would resort to playing aggressive to get flush draws out. Same if there are open enders out their. I tend to try and slow play things like sets and hope that the other guy trys to steal it off me.
Also i check very quickly because according to many sources it shows weakness.
i like to play slowly, I think a strategy very interesting, but it has the right time to run it, when I'm near a premiation or when I am very tired, I think it is a tactic, we can do this
to obtain better results. But I am against players who are playing slow any time since harm the course of the game, hampering other players that may want to recover the number of
SOMETIMES slow-playing can pay off, if you have tedious notes on a guy being a seriously aggressive better with weak hands.. especially late in tourney play or heads up, but as GoodWood said above, your opponent often gets suspicious (wouldnt you get suspicious on a check-raise or check-bet?). In ring games or early in a tournament, forget it.. It's only relevant when you flop the ultra nuts and youre very certain your opponents have hands that can't out-draw you.
I think you played the hand well and that it was just bad luck to walk against top set in heads-up. Slow playing a hand is definitely a dangerous way to play a hand because you're allowing the opponent to draw out on you. The best way to slow play a hand is if you're heads-up, you're positive that you have the best hand and the board's not scary.
I no longer slow play ACES been nailed by str8s. if someone slowplays me i find a hand to slow play them point in case, i got slow played by a full house so i repayed him by slow playing a full house on him.
full house slow play yes
4 of a kind slow play yes
AA or KK no
Slowplay or not to slowplay all depends on the situation. If your playing against an overagressive player, the slow play is usually the best bet. They will try to throw large bets on the table in an effort to make their hand look stronger and force you out. Say you slow play a pocket pair and catch a set on the flop, or play suited connectors and catch the straight or flush. A slow play here should lead to a big pot in this situation. They may take your checks as weakness and bet big. However slow playing against a patient player generally tends not to work because they usually play smart and won't put their money on the table in a bad situation. Slow playing against them could be the exact opposite, especially if you catch a set and allow them to chase down a backdoor flush or straight, you could lose all your chips in one hand. Its best to recognize the type of player your against and choose your play wisely.
I caught a guy last night in a FT free roll he was the big stack at the table , when there were only limpers in front of him in late position or in the blinds he would push all in and pick up an uncontested pot (every one would fold).So I waited and waited and finally picked up KK in middle position limper in front of me, I limp , limper behind he of course pushs all in. My kings hold up and I double up so sweet.But I have had a bad time slow playing when I flop a set at the low levels and free rolls to many people chase to the river and make straight or flush.
I love slow playing when I do the slow play, but hate when it is done to me lol. When I slow play and I hit a set and chack and I get the others to bite there is no better feeling. Sorry though it happened to you.
I used to try and slow play a lot, until I realized that it was making me cry more than fly. All you are doing is allowing someone with a nominal drawing hand to potentially improve their hand, and then send ya packing.