Should we always cold 4 bet AA?

Thinker_145

Thinker_145

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I am really tired of cold 4 betting AA as it pretty much always ends the hand right there unless it's a fish 3 bet or of course if someone has KK. However if I am OOP to the 3 better or we are talking deep stacks then I still feel there is no option but to do it. In this situation however I am IP with just 100 BB and facing a player who will almost never give any further action against a cold 4 bet without KK. So I decided to flat and as it turns out this was the only way to get the maximum money here.

iPoker - €0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 103.16 BB (VPIP: 22.09, PFR: 17.06, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, hands: 6,136)
Hero (BB): 108.46 BB
CO: 105.68 BB (VPIP: 27.77, PFR: 19.25, 3Bet Preflop: 7.10, Hands: 1,045)
BTN: 58.7 BB (VPIP: 56.60, PFR: 15.82, 3Bet Preflop: 5.13, Hands: 165)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:diamond: A:club:

CO raises to 3 BB, fold, SB raises to 10 BB, Hero calls 9 BB, fold

Flop: (23 BB, 2 players) 3:spade: 8:club: 6:heart:
SB bets 11.5 BB, Hero calls 11.5 BB

Turn: (46 BB, 2 players) 4:club:
SB bets 23 BB, Hero calls 23 BB

River: (92 BB, 2 players) 6:spade:
SB bets 58.66 BB, Hero calls 58.66 BB

SB shows Q:diamond: Q:spade: (Two Pair, Queens and Sixes)
(Pre 18%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
Hero shows A:diamond: A:club: (Two Pair, Aces and Sixes)
(Pre 82%, Flop 92%, Turn 95%)
Hero wins 205.32 BB

Now my question really is if this is indeed the right way to go about these situations? There are several scenarios where this sort of play either loses value or just goes horribly wrong.

I am not in favor of deep stacked cold call and/or OOP call. Right now I am focusing on how to get max value IP with 100 BB.

1. I have seen even very tight players who simply don't slow down with AK pre so if we flat AK 3 bet and they don't flop anything then we potentially lost a lot of value. As long as we make a standard raise our 4 bet is likely to be at least flatted by the vast majority of players holding AK. So basically slow playing against AK is simply not optimal as far as I see.

2. Every time we flop a set against KK we just lost so much value by having slow played it. On the other hand if we never slow play KK ourselves then we will really be losing in the AA vs KK variation. Slow playing KK pre is a whole different situation with it's own pros and cons.

3. Our opponent might simply have air and manage to out flop us. Since we never had an intention to fold post flop we will just have to take that loss and end up looking silly.

On the other hand the single biggest reason to slow play AA against good players is to get max value from QQ. If a K comes on the flop that's too bad but it doesn't matter since he wasn't going to call our 4 bet anyways. We can also potentially get lots of value from JJ on the right kinda flop.

Remember this discussion is only for playing against good solid players who also have a good idea about how we play. You should almost always cold 4 bet a fish 3 bet with AA.

So what do you guys think about this matter I am really interested in feedback.
 
vinylspiros

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i had made a thread about 2 years back called flatting aces.

I was asking exactly the same question. When we play zoom nowadays, it seems that a 4bet is almost always KK or AA. QQ has become a setmining hand.

If you ask me,it really depends on villains stats.

If he is someone that 3bets and then fires flop,turn river regardless of how strong their hand is then, YES, flat it and hope he doesnt get too lucky.


You can always pick up speed and try to get it in on turn depending on how dangerous the flop is and how likely it might be that villain has a better hand than you .

In general though trying to GII pre with aces is the norm, but in certin circumstances versus aggro players flatting can be fine as well in order not to lose value.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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Depends on villain. Sometimes its best to raise, sometimes its best to call. Splitsuit did a hand history video very recently and he discussed about raising or just calling with the aces. Its on the poker bank channel on youtube, worth watching imo.
 
RegHC23

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I think that you should always just go ahead and bet it and play it, because only a certain range of cards is going to call you anyway. I would rather go ahead and bet it and let them have to make the decision and see what happens. Losing value is an idea that you hope happens, but all of that is dependent upon the villains holdings and the flop.
 
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DunningKruger

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Always is a word that should rarely be used in poker. The answer to the question in the title of this thread is no, even though I can think of a few of the more subtle reasons to cold 4bet the hand that players might overlook. Anyway, because my game is such that I cold 4bet a fair number of hands that aren't AA (based on the situation at hand as much as or moreso than my cards themselves) I'm often playing AA the same way as well. You'd be surprised how many calls (or shoves) I'll get from people misusing their HUDs and deciding I'm 4betting too often to make folding a good idea.
 
skrsh76

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Good point DK. Especially in 2NL it is almost always AA or KK if there is a 4 bet unless it is psyco who plays every hand. So the real question if we should 4bet more than just AA to adjust. I have seen quite a few who have flatting 3bets to keep more hands in play
 
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DunningKruger

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It's an exceptionally strong move, and if we're 4betting light then the risk to reward ratio in today's games is definitely more appealing than the roughly pot sized 3bets you see pretty much always (except against a multitabling shortstacker or maybe btn vs co or whatever). Still, I'm hesitant to advocate 2NL players getting cold 4bet happy even with careful use of a HUD... if only because the post flop mistakes by the opposition are nothing short of epic not to mention abundant at that level.
 
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Weisssound

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This is going to be spot dependent. But I would start by asking the question would ever cold bet anything that isn't AA?

Looking at the stats of the people in the hand - we see that SB is 22 VPIP, and a 3-bet of 5 apprx. Over 6000 hands we can call this guy a standard-line player.

Our opening guy, is 27, with a 3-bet of 7, making him a bit more loose, but not ultra loose.

I think in this spot, given the stats on the players, and without knowing any deeper dynamics, I prefer a flat to a 4-bet. I think enough of the time we're up against QQ, KK, or AK with position - which is great for us. And some of the time, we may see a 5-bet squeeze type of play from the looser player if that player has that range. And ultimately, that's what we want.

I think given what we know about the spot, you played it great.
 
Latamgrinder

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It depends on the situation, there are times when cold calling a 3bet with AA is better than 4betting and there are other than is just better to 4bet, like vs a regular 3betting me from the blinds vs my BU open raise i usually min 4bet i found this play to be extremely usefull cuz they either jam or cold call my 4bet and stand to play a hand OOP in a very big pot, of course, in order for this to work i have to be able to have a very balanced min 4bet range here and history vs this particular villain :D :p
 
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szolinskij

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Preflop AA flop 8 9 10 i raise reraise player reraise allin call or fold?
 
Latamgrinder

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Con esa textura T98 jugaria AA con mucha cautela, especialmente si el otro jugador es agresivo, hay muuuchos turns que pueden venir y compicarte la vida y, en pocos casos, cuando recibas accion, AA serán amplio favorito
 
IPlay

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If you are finding a spot in poker where players are folding too much, expliot it. Start finding spots to 4 bet light against the right regs. Button raises, reg 3 bets from sb, great spot to cold 4 bet from bb. Dont get crazy though but you get my point. To answer the actual question, yes there is times to flat 3 bets with AA.
 
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ad1. I think that playing the blinds you lose always ,i play 100 % time on BB 4-bet for value i like cold call IP (BTN,CO)

ad.2 stackoff range 100 BB playerpool NL50 QQ+ AKs on SB

Ad. AA is very strong Hand , but not all boards is very good to profit game postflop when you cold call 3-bet villain

ad.4 you must know in 4-bet pot , when hit flop right now or play check/behind

ad5. cold call 3-bet >>> c-betting 60-70 % , mid agression , 50 % wtsd , 4-bet >>> passive players , weak players

ad.6 good place (BB) if you 4-bet , (villain can think that your game is for unexpliot >>> light reshooving range , 5bets )
 
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Thinker_145

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Yes but its not as simple is it. When we have AA we are blocking AK and almost no chance of AA. So when a tight player 3 bets and we don't have a monster the odds that they do are significantly higher.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 
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Abhi Pansari

I have been in a flux too recently when it comes to AA. i have noticed that most seasoned players are very aware of the general 4 bet strategy.

i find it easier to just flat the AA if I have a big stack. That way I can stay under the radar. Any monster raise just makes me too open to suspicion. It might sound ridiculous but I actually hope not to get an AA most times.

unless ofcourse i am short stacked big time. then their is no better substitute for the AA hail mary all in.

But general rule of thumb i just flat it, and try to catch others off guard with my AA now. doesnt work every time. But when it does and the board is favorable its a decent tool to suck in an opponent and add a decent chunk to my stack.

-Abhi
 
BROKEinCOLLEGElol

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I am not in favor of deep stacked cold call and/or OOP call. Right now I am focusing on how to get max value IP with 100 BB.

I agree that cold call over 200bb and OOP is -EV. That being said the decision to flat AA is going to be completely villain dependent as well as your image. If you have a LAG image and are facing a villain who isn't a nit then 4-betting is probably the correct play. However if you have a TAG image and villain is TAG/nit then not 4-betting will probably return maximum value.

As you stated above you're giving the villain a chance to out flop you with a marginal hand.

PokerSnowie approves.
 

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leandr0s

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i believe it all has to do with your range and the range of your opponent. If you want to be cold 4betting Aces then you need to be 4betting cold other hands as well... like TT+ and AQo+ ...maybe even 99 and include some bluffs as well. then it has to do with the foe's range. if they are 3betting light then you 4betting them (if you do it often enough) will get little credid and you might even get a light 5bet or a call. you might even want to make a small reraise (dont go for pot) to give the foe better odds to call by also increasing the size of the pot. i believe trapping (aka cold calling a 3bet with aces) works better in position. If you play SB doesnt matter how many raises there are behind you, go for a pot reraise, because if you see a flop of Qh Jh 9d and you hold 2 black aces in the SB without having even shown the strength of your hand you really cant get anything.
 
beger80

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If you are finding a spot in poker where players are folding too much, expliot it. Start finding spots to 4 bet light against the right regs. Button raises, reg 3 bets from sb, great spot to cold 4 bet from bb. Dont get crazy though but you get my point. To answer the actual question, yes there is times to flat 3 bets with AA.

I completely agree here, if you can fully narrow a villians range by four betting then they can be easily exploited. four betting light a few more times could help by keeping your 4bet range not limited to only aces. Flatting ip against the right player type is the right play in certain situations.

try not to make your range as defined or you may be the person who can be exploited.
 
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miley17

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when i see AA i always raise very much or go all in - depens on blinds, opponents and so..But actually yeah... most of the times i lose :D
 
beger80

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when i see AA i always raise very much or go all in - depens on blinds, opponents and so..But actually yeah... most of the times i lose :D

lol most of the times I lose... then you sir are running terrible especially if you shove every time.
 
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I am really tired of cold 4 betting AA as it pretty much always ends the hand right there unless it's a fish 3 bet or of course if someone has KK. However if I am OOP to the 3 better or we are talking deep stacks then I still feel there is no option but to do it. In this situation however I am IP with just 100 BB and facing a player who will almost never give any further action against a cold 4 bet without KK. So I decided to flat and as it turns out this was the only way to get the maximum money here.

iPoker - €0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 103.16 BB (VPIP: 22.09, PFR: 17.06, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 6,136)
Hero (BB): 108.46 BB
CO: 105.68 BB (VPIP: 27.77, PFR: 19.25, 3Bet Preflop: 7.10, Hands: 1,045)
BTN: 58.7 BB (VPIP: 56.60, PFR: 15.82, 3Bet Preflop: 5.13, Hands: 165)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A<font color='red'>♦</font> A<font color='black'>♣</font>

CO raises to 3 BB, fold, SB raises to 10 BB, Hero calls 9 BB, fold

Flop: (23 BB, 2 players) 3<font color='black'>♠</font> 8<font color='black'>♣</font> 6<font color='red'>♥</font>
SB bets 11.5 BB, Hero calls 11.5 BB

Turn: (46 BB, 2 players) 4<font color='black'>♣</font>
SB bets 23 BB, Hero calls 23 BB

River: (92 BB, 2 players) 6<font color='black'>♠</font>
SB bets 58.66 BB, Hero calls 58.66 BB

SB shows Q<font color='red'>♦</font> Q<font color='black'>♠</font> (Two Pair, Queens and Sixes)
(Pre 18%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
Hero shows A<font color='red'>♦</font> A<font color='black'>♣</font> (Two Pair, Aces and Sixes)
(Pre 82%, Flop 92%, Turn 95%)
Hero wins 205.32 BB

Now my question really is if this is indeed the right way to go about these situations? There are several scenarios where this sort of play either loses value or just goes horribly wrong.

I am not in favor of deep stacked cold call and/or OOP call. Right now I am focusing on how to get max value IP with 100 BB.

1. I have seen even very tight players who simply don't slow down with AK pre so if we flat AK 3 bet and they don't flop anything then we potentially lost a lot of value. As long as we make a standard raise our 4 bet is likely to be at least flatted by the vast majority of players holding AK. So basically slow playing against AK is simply not optimal as far as I see.

2. Every time we flop a set against KK we just lost so much value by having slow played it. On the other hand if we never slow play KK ourselves then we will really be losing in the AA vs KK variation. Slow playing KK pre is a whole different situation with it's own pros and cons.

3. Our opponent might simply have air and manage to out flop us. Since we never had an intention to fold post flop we will just have to take that loss and end up looking silly.

On the other hand the single biggest reason to slow play AA against good players is to get max value from QQ. If a K comes on the flop that's too bad but it doesn't matter since he wasn't going to call our 4 bet anyways. We can also potentially get lots of value from JJ on the right kinda flop.

Remember this discussion is only for playing against good solid players who also have a good idea about how we play. You should almost always cold 4 bet a fish 3 bet with AA.

So what do you guys think about this matter I am really interested in feedback.



The important thing is to plan how to get max value with the lion's share of equity in the pot. When the CO opens, and the SB 3-bets we have to guess what the CO is going to do if we flat. There's a lot of awkward flops that can come down acting second between a tight range and a wide range. Ideally, we want to go heads up with as big of a pot as possible. So in terms of our immediate desired results, 4 betting is the optimal play.

However, we have to consider the opponents tendencies. Cold calling opens up our perceived range quite a bit, which can be useful against getting JJ/QQ/KK to pay us off, or at least getting AK to fire a c-bet into the abyss. So if we think the CO will still likely fold even if they are getting better odds to see the flop, then the case for flatting is pretty strong. Mind you, I think a LOT of players in CO will also call in this spot. If I'm opening something like 89 suited, and I get 3-bet and a cold call, I may still choose to see a flop because I have a position edge, I know where I'm at, particularly if I know when and where I have bluffs/can get value.

The flip side of the coin is: do you ever 4-bet anything besides AA/KK in this spot? If you don't, then this allows JJ/QQ to play perfectly against you. So I think it's important to have some looser hands for this - AK, AQs, and some bluffier/less marginal hands like 9s or like 78s. This is only if your opponents are even taking note of your tendencies though. On most tables, I think it's fine to restrict your 4-bet range to AA/KK/AKs. And as narrow as that is, it allows you to get called by JJ/QQ/AK and be vastly ahead or at least not far behind.

But, yeah, this all hinges on what you think the cut off will do. Just think about how that run out in your example looks if the CO is in the hand to the river. You're gonna end up in some tricky spots.
 
hackmeplz

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Yes but its not as simple is it. When we have AA we are blocking AK and almost no chance of AA. So when a tight player 3 bets and we don't have a monster the odds that they do are significantly higher.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

It's extremely rare (maybe impossible?) even with the blocking factor that there would be a situation where flatting AA is better than cold calling it AND where you wouldn't want to be bluffing a lot of Ax hands. If his 3-bets are nutted enough to not want to bluff he's going to have KK/AK/QQ enough that cold 4-betting is better. In the hand posted, do you actually think he folds to a cold 4-bet?
 
Thinker_145

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I can't "know" who does and doesn't fold QQ against me but I do know that I very rarely see the better and tighter regs play QQ against me after a 4 bet and he is certainly one of those. My cold 4 bet range is pretty much AA, KK and AK so QQ is in big trouble.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 
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Nikitos19909

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AA's

I really afraid AA's when my hand is ......
 
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