Should I lay this down (AK) preflop?

greatgame230

greatgame230

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to fold AK you must have a very clear reading of the opponent without information from the opponent I must say that I think the call was good and you had bad luck
 
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fundiver199

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You can go both ways on this. On one side you do block AA and KK, but on the other side you are behind to any pair, and how often do people actually do this with AQ or worse? The fact, someone cold called your 3-bet, would make me lean a little more towards calling it off, because there is that extra dead money in the pot. But I certainly would not classify folding as a mistake.
 
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Mybeardisevil

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You can go both ways on this. On one side you do block AA and KK, but on the other side you are behind to any pair, and how often do people actually do this with AQ or worse? The fact, someone cold called your 3-bet, would make me lean a little more towards calling it off, because there is that extra dead money in the pot. But I certainly would not classify folding as a mistake.


thanks man, yea I have been doing a bit of reading and it seems there is a consensus to fold if someone else is in the pot and left to act after you, especially if BB calling a 3 bet as in this case.
 
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fundiver199

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thanks man, yea I have been doing a bit of reading and it seems there is a consensus to fold if someone else is in the pot and left to act after you, especially if BB calling a 3 bet as in this case.


No its more of a reason to call, because it gives more incentive for the original raiser to 4-bet, and typically the cold caller is not strong enough to call it off. If he had AA or KK, he would have put in the 4-bet himself most of the time. But even so its a very big jam, and you are not getting good odds against a range, where you are rarely if ever going to be ahead. If he flip over JJ or QQ, this is probably still slightly negative EV, so you are really hoping to see another AK or a wild bluff. I dont think, calling here was a big mistake, but against most players folding is probably slightly better.
 
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Mybeardisevil

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No its more of a reason to call, because it gives more incentive for the original raiser to 4-bet, and typically the cold caller is not strong enough to call it off. If he had AA or KK, he would have put in the 4-bet himself most of the time. But even so its a very big jam, and you are not getting good odds against a range, where you are rarely if ever going to be ahead. If he flip over JJ or QQ, this is probably still slightly negative EV, so you are really hoping to see another AK or a wild bluff. I dont think, calling here was a big mistake, but against most players folding is probably slightly better.
Thanks I get you, I need to play AK as a preflop drawing hand and not commit so much on it because as you pointed out even against pairs my equity is only like 40 odd percent. :)
 
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Dhendrixon

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This would come to what type of player is he? Does he rarely 3 bet jam without QQ+, AKs/os? If he only does it with these types of hands, then you are in bad shape and should fold. If he does this with a wider range of hands (22+, AJs+, AQos+) then you are in better shape to make the call. The wider the range you can put him on the better it is for AK. If player is unknown I would fold. Also, given the pot odds you would need to win about 70% of the time, and with even looser ranges that he could do this with, you would still not be winning 70% of the time.
 
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fundiver199

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Also, given the pot odds you would need to win about 70% of the time

Its 2,14$ for Hero to call off, and if BB fold, then pot is going to be 4,82$. 2,14/4,82=0,444, so Hero need 44,4% equity. In reality he need a bit more in a cash game because of the rake. And in a tournament he need more because of ICM.

We can use Equilab to calculate, when this call is profitable. We start with the worst case scenario, which is KK+. AKo has 18,48% equity against that range, so calling is obviously terrible. Against JJ+, AK AKo has 39,78%, so still not profitable but a lot closer. If we add TT and AQs, then AKo has 42,87% equity. Getting closer but still not there. If we add AQo, then AKo has 49,18% equity, so now a call is profitable but not massively so.

So its one of those, where unless the opponent has a funny hat on or something, there is nothing wrong with just folding. A lot of players might not be willing to fold hands like AQ, AJ, KQ to a 3-bet, when they have position, but usually they are just going to call rather than 4-bet jam it all in for 100 blinds or more.
 
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Raz123

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You made the mistake on the re raise to 0.18. AK is a good starting hand good enough to limp or x3 bet. But that's all it is a STARTING hand It's not really that great until it connects with something.
 
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gustav197poker

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You are not forced to enter those difficult places. The fact that you 3-bet with a limper in the middle and out of position makes your call to 4-bet / shove a dispensable scenario. There is no chance that you can bluff, because the villain has directly pushed all his chips with a super large bet size. So villain removes all bluffs from your range and you are left mostly with hands that have some value. I recommend avoiding these high variance points, especially in micro stakes where players don't tend to bluff too much when pushing preflop.
Greetings.
 
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Dhendrixon

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Its 2,14$ for Hero to call off, and if BB fold, then pot is going to be 4,82$. 2,14/4,82=0,444, so Hero need 44,4% equity.


Sorry, forgot to add the original bet amount. Long day yesterday. Still in very bad shape though and would need to win almost 50% of the time to be profitable.
 
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caracaski220

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caracaski220

Unless you have specific information about your opponent, folding AK against an all in that eliminates you is the correct bet. If the villain has a wide all in range, a call is correct. Remember though , pair of twos beats you if you dont hit. Its a coin flip. There are plenty of times for a coin flip, but it depends on the situation.
 
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crazycitizen

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I think you were unlucky in this situation.
Tbh i hate AK; and I would consider folding in this situation at like NL25 and above.
But at NL2 people are wild enough, I would call with AK all day unless I had a read on the villain.
 
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D1enonli

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These scenarios are tough on your confidence. I like to look at this way. Would you have felt any better if you had KK v. AK and he went all-in? Yes, of course. You would have made the right call. But now what if an Ace shows up on the board. We've all been there also. My point is that to risk all your money with AK isn't profitable preflop. I would almost always fold and give up the .18c unless I had at least 3x the stack of the other player. Then maybe 1 out of 3 or 4 times I would take the bait.
 
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fundiver199

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I recommend avoiding these high variance points, especially in micro stakes where players don't tend to bluff too much when pushing preflop.
Greetings.

Its also a point it itself to reduce variance and rake payment. Maybe this does not matter so much at 2NL, because its 2$, so whatever. But when you get to say 10NL, you probably still dont have a huge bankroll, since most people dont at this point. So having sessions, where you lose 3-4 buyins because of hands like this, is going to increase your risk of going on tilt. Whereas if you fold, you only lost 10 blinds, and its much easier to keep on grinding and staying focused.

And its not only in these preflop spots, when you have the obvious second best hands like AK or JJ-QQ. The same concept more or less apply to postflop. In 100 BB cash games you really dont need to call an all in that often. And especially not in the micros, where people tend to be very value heavy, when they jam. Learning the word "fold" is going to not only increase your winrate in the micros but also make it much easier to stay on top mentally :)
 
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CallmeFloppy

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You made the mistake on the re raise to 0.18. AK is a good starting hand good enough to limp or x3 bet. But that's all it is a STARTING hand It's not really that great until it connects with something.


I agree that this is the point where the hand took a turn.

Your bet here not only allowed your opponent to make another raise, but I believe in this case, to go all in.

The opponent made the initial raise in early position so I have to give them at least some respect for having a decent starting hand. You then raised with AK which I don't have a problem with and another opponent called.

Now your opponent has someone who re-raised and someone who called that re-raise and decided to go all in. I expect that your opponent is hoping that at least one of you if not both call since you have both showed a strong interest in playing the hand. Once the opponent makes that raise, now you not only have to worry about the all in player, but the opponent after you left to act. I would fold the AK in this situation.

I understand that this could also be a squeeze play, but I don't see many micro stakes players being aware to make that play ( or recognize being squeezed) and even so, a pot sized bet would get the job done without exposing your stack against two players.

I fold cause I think he really wants a call.
 
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Raz123

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The opponent made the initial raise in early position so I have to give them at least some respect for having a decent starting hand. You then raised with AK which I don't have a problem with and another opponent called.

I disagree. Calling the 3 bet is what I would have done, no reason to raise because you don't have anything yet. You're dominated by AA, KK and a coin flip for pocket pairs. YOU DON'T BEAT ANYTHING but AQ.. The raise allowed the re raise that's a fold vs a good player.
 
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CallmeFloppy

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I disagree. Calling the 3 bet is what I would have done, no reason to raise because you don't have anything yet. You're dominated by AA, KK and a coin flip for pocket pairs. YOU DON'T BEAT ANYTHING but AQ.. The raise allowed the re raise that's a fold vs a good player.


I agree that calling is the better choice but still don't have an issue with raising. Here is why

1. You have AK so the chances of facing an AA or KK are much slimmer.

2. You don't know that you are playing against a good player. Its micro stakes so I can't
assume they are good until they have proven so.

3. I think their range is open to more than just pocket pairs, AK or AQ. So AQ is not the only holding I am beating. Again, this is micro stakes.

4. A raise could still win me the pot preflop. Even if they have a pocket pair, I can likely knock out a bunch of the smaller pairs.

5. I prefer to play the hand heads up and would like to have the player behind me fold. A raise makes that more likely and gives me position throughout the hand. A call makes it more likely for the person behind me to enter the pot as well.

I get that AK is not a made hand, but its still one of the top 10 starting hands in poker for a reason. I don't think a pre-flop raise is out of line against a standard open.
 
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Raz123

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stakes do not matter. If he's a good player he has AK tied or dominated. Granted you don't know he's pushing all in. My point is AK doesn't warrent raise there. Wait till you have something, that's my strategy anyway.
 
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