Was This River Shove with A-high Straight Reckless?

ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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This was at a 10NL table and I was in the BB, I got dealt KJo and the pot went multiway with 3 players with both others having position on me (the RFI guy was sitting at at UTG +2). I flopped an ace high straight with a rainbow board (flop was AQT) and slow played it knowing MP would take a stab at the pot when checked to, I wanted to keep both players in the pot. The turn was Qh making the board 3 tone, and it got checked to MP who checked this time. The river was 9s. This time I bet half pot thinking maybe I'll get callers if someone has a set of queens or top pair or the non-nut straight. UTG+2 reraised me 2.5x my bet and I reraised him by shoving. He flipped AQ and took the pot with a full house.

Was my shove reckless given that another Q came on the turn? Or was a shove the right move?
 
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Scottish77

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when the board pairs you have to start thinking about villian having a full house especially when he raises your river bet. maybe better to call his bet on the river rather than shoving as you dont have the nuts and there is hands that beat you.
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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when the board pairs you have to start thinking about villian having a full house especially when he raises your river bet. maybe better to call his bet on the river rather than shoving as you dont have the nuts and there is hands that beat you.


Thanks for the advice guys, ya, I was thinking that. I should have been more careful vs an UTG range, problem is this NL10 room was quite soft and I don't know how but UTG+2 had a 5 buyin stack despite open limping many of his hands, I didn't give him enough credit and thought I'll double my stack if he's holding trips/set, or a lower straight.

Regarding re-raising my river bet, I probably should have bet more on the river because I thought his re-raise was a response to my bet being small. Maybe he would have called there?
 
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UncleConRon

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My opinion

I would of called. The shove was a little aggressive. Some players raise after a check with two pair i order to buy the pot. So the shove seemed reasonable. You got caught this time and probably will win most of the time.
 
Aballinamion

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Values into bluffs, and the old UTG trap

This was at a 10NL table and I was in the BB, I got dealt KJo and the pot went multiway with 3 players with both others having position on me (the RFI guy was sitting at at UTG +2). I flopped an ace high straight with a rainbow board (flop was AQT) and slow played it knowing MP would take a stab at the pot when checked to, I wanted to keep both players in the pot. The turn was Qh making the board 3 tone, and it got checked to MP who checked this time. The river was 9s. This time I bet half pot thinking maybe I'll get callers if someone has a set of queens or top pair or the non-nut straight. UTG+2 reraised me 2.5x my bet and I reraised him by shoving. He flipped AQ and took the pot with a full house.

Was my shove reckless given that another Q came on the turn? Or was a shove the right move?

Hi there ventrolloquist! Thank you for posting your hand, it is a very nice one!
You called from the Big Blind with KJo versus UTG+2 plus MP caller? I would say right off the bat that I don't love this call. Many times we are already dead and dominated by AK and KQ. (both in UTG and MP's ranges)
That being said, KJo is very dominated preflop, and we should be 3betting/Squeezing more often than calling. However, we cannot Squeeze UTG with so weak a range, unless we have information that UTG is opening very light, something like 15% to full-ring and 17% for 6-Max tables.
Even so, if we look only to the Raise First, and we see that the player is opening, for example, 16% from UTG at a Full Ring table, we also have to look to how fuch it folds to a 3bet/Squeeze preflop in position.
OMG, sorry for my candor, but it seems to me that you played this hand very poorly, preflop and postflop: preflop, for the reasons stated above, we cannot cold call very much with dominated hands versus UTG/MP, and we can be 3betting light versus another positions such as MP2 and Hijack, if it is the case. The fold will work just fine as well. :)
Now, you flop a straight nuts and decide to slow down when you hand needs protection???, Because you said that it double paired in the turn and that's favors better the UTG raisor than your calling range. Yes, UTG will have all the AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, AJ and you in the BB will have none of these hands that could be Squeezing versus EP raise.
This is one of the scenarios where I love the donks flop because if UTG+2 have AQ, AT, AA, QQ or TT, it will NEVER fold to a donkey and most of players are re-raising their SETS in a spot like that, lovely :love:
Since you have no information of Villain and you decided to slow your hand when it was better to bet for value and protection (donks flop for value) and, when your hand becomes weak you decided to shove?
You bet 1/2 pot river, got re-raised to 2.5x and you still believe you had the nuts? :eek: What did you think that you were breakeven and UTG+2 had a KJ as well? Because if this is your ideia, if we put 100 BB blinds in the pot and for a miracle, UTG shoes KJ too, you are losing a lot to rake.
I would say again that because you didn't 3bet preflop, UTG will have in its range all the AA, TT, QQ, and 99 in this river, and you in the BB calling will have none of these hands. When UTG+2 re-raises you river it is representing only the nutted hands: the straight, which we know it is almost impossible for UTG+2 to have, and the BOATS! No Trips should be re-raising this river, like a Qx, UTG will never bluff you with missing draws such as Kx for example.
I don't know the size of the stacks which is very odd for a hand analysis. Anyways, if both UTG+2 and BB Hero had 100 BB effective stack your re-raise river was not good.
If both UTG+2 and BB Hero had +150 BB effective stack, maybe you could call with your straight here, losing a ton, always.
If both UTG+2 and BB Hero had +200 BB effective stack, I am so sorry for you.
All started preflop: try to defend KJo and other similar Broadways versus Hijack Raise First, at minimum. Versus MP it is breakeven, losing. Versus UTG we are always dominated. When you decide to defend KJo, try to 3bet 70% of times or more and call 30% or less. We do not love calling from the blinds at the micros.
I hope it helps you, have a nice day. Nothing personal here, respect always and good luck at the tables!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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I did play it quite poorly. I know KJo shouldn't be overplayed but thought what the hell, my odds are better because I'm in the BB. But ya. You're def right in that their ranges dominated mine and calling with something like middle connectors would have been wiser, or a 3bet was necessary. I'm not entirely sure what went through my head with that call, I must have got impatient [emoji1]. Thanks for the detailed analysis, I really appreciate it. I need to experiment more with donks multiway like you said, it's a good option but I never know quite when to use it. I also slowed down on flop because I figured the aggro MP player would do the betting for me and my range was concealed, and I wanted to keep 2 players in the pot (i did have info on MP and he seemed to go at the pot a lot when checked to multiway), is this a flawed thought process? Just curious why is a donk superior in this case, I never know when to use them. And it was foolish to shove I agree. I assumed the UTG raiser was a rec because he was limping nearly every hand lol, apart from his open raise narrowing his range I thought he wouldn't fold a set or bottom straight to a shove. Lesson learned I guess.

Thanks for your help :)
 
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Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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I did play it quite poorly. I know KJo shouldn't be overplayed but thought what the hell, my odds are better because I'm in the BB. But ya. You're def right in that their ranges dominated mine and calling with something like middle connectors would have been wiser, or a 3bet was necessary. I'm not entirely sure what went through my head with that call, I must have got impatient [emoji1]. Thanks for the detailed analysis, I really appreciate it. I need to experiment more with donks multiway like you said, it's a good option but I never know quite when to use it. I also slowed down on flop because I figured the aggro MP player would do the betting for me and my range was concealed, and I wanted to keep 2 players in the pot (i did have info on MP and he seemed to go at the pot a lot when checked to multiway), is this a flawed thought process? Just curious why is a donk superior in this case, I never know when to use them. And it was foolish to shove I agree. I assumed the UTG raiser was a rec because he was limping nearly every hand lol, apart from his open raise narrowing his range I thought he wouldn't fold a set or bottom straight to a shove. Lesson learned I guess.

Thanks for your help :)

Hello ventrolloquist, thank you very much for your patience and kindness. I believe that at the micros we are donking most for value when we know it is likely that Villain is gonna call or re-raise our donkey. I try to avoid to donkey bet for bluffs or some fancy semi-bluffs such as OESD, FD, and Gutters.

Why do I believe a donks flop is superior here

IMO, this board AQT favours a lot UTG's and MP's range, so if you donkey bet here it will be very hard for AK to fold, and we will find some of those in UTG's opening range and MP's cold calling range out of position. Many JJ would continue here because of the straight possibility in the turn/river.
Like I said before, because UTG raised preflop it has all the combos of AK, AQ, AA, QQ and TT and it will never fold to a donkey here.
Check-raise is also a line, but it seems that UTG Villain is a little bit tricky because it decided to check two pair in a coordinated board MWP. I said it is tricky because many players at the micros don't read the board texture. The only thing they think is: "Neat! I have Top Two Pair, let's put chips in the middle!"
I cannot say if you had a flawed process of thought trying to keep both players in the hand with a very strong value hand. Players tend to be very weary in coordinated boards like this, and I really can't see any random Qx raising this river because calling with trips here is much better. When UTG checks flop it seems that it has nothing to pay with. Which creates the perfect trap for river.
For as absurd as it might seem, I would check back this river with this straight against UTG a couple of times :eek: Why? Because I don't see any weaker hand paying my straight in this situation, but on the contrary side, I see a lot of better hands re-raising for value and I would not be able to fold since that I have a straight and odds.
If we check this river it is most natural the UTG will bet its Full-House, and it should give a fair price, or it will make anything else fold. When I check river and UTG bets I simply call, not re-raise, for the same reason I checked the river out of position. (In the long run the players in position will be beating us most of times in scenarios where there is Villain IP x Hero OOP).
Would a player really re-raise river with TPTK in a coordinated and double paired river?
Players almost never bluff at the micros. Their bluffs postflop are always everytime preflop, flop and turn, and even so bluffs with some equity.
Before making decisions like this in the river we should have played at least 10.000 hands with villain. This is a very hard number of hands to achieve, so by default I would be calling his raise and save a couple of blinds.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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pokerdebit

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In my case I would not have shoved because of two Q's on the board.
But I can understand you, it is hard to let down a straight like that
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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Hello ventrolloquist, thank you very much for your patience and kindness. I believe that at the micros we are donking most for value when we know it is likely that Villain is gonna call or re-raise our donkey. I try to avoid to donkey bet for bluffs or some fancy semi-bluffs such as OESD, FD, and Gutters.

Why do I believe a donks flop is superior here

IMO, this board AQT favours a lot UTG's and MP's range, so if you donkey bet here it will be very hard for AK to fold, and we will find some of those in UTG's opening range and MP's cold calling range out of position. Many JJ would continue here because of the straight possibility in the turn/river.
Like I said before, because UTG raised preflop it has all the combos of AK, AQ, AA, QQ and TT and it will never fold to a donkey here.
Check-raise is also a line, but it seems that UTG Villain is a little bit tricky because it decided to check two pair in a coordinated board MWP. I said it is tricky because many players at the micros don't read the board texture. The only thing they think is: "Neat! I have Top Two Pair, let's put chips in the middle!"
I cannot say if you had a flawed process of thought trying to keep both players in the hand with a very strong value hand. Players tend to be very weary in coordinated boards like this, and I really can't see any random Qx raising this river because calling with trips here is much better. When UTG checks flop it seems that it has nothing to pay with. Which creates the perfect trap for river.
For as absurd as it might seem, I would check back this river with this straight against UTG a couple of times :eek: Why? Because I don't see any weaker hand paying my straight in this situation, but on the contrary side, I see a lot of better hands re-raising for value and I would not be able to fold since that I have a straight and odds.
If we check this river it is most natural the UTG will bet its Full-House, and it should give a fair price, or it will make anything else fold. When I check river and UTG bets I simply call, not re-raise, for the same reason I checked the river out of position. (In the long run the players in position will be beating us most of times in scenarios where there is Villain IP x Hero OOP).
Would a player really re-raise river with TPTK in a coordinated and double paired river?
Players almost never bluff at the micros. Their bluffs postflop are always everytime preflop, flop and turn, and even so bluffs with some equity.
Before making decisions like this in the river we should have played at least 10.000 hands with villain. This is a very hard number of hands to achieve, so by default I would be calling his raise and save a couple of blinds.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
Thank Carlos. Your explanations are extremely helpful and I'm learning a lot right now [emoji4] . You should be coaching if you aren't already.
 
Aballinamion

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I love

Thank Carlos. Your explanations are extremely helpful and I'm learning a lot right now [emoji4] . You should be coaching if you aren't already.

Hi there ventrolloquist, good morning, how you doing? Well, I am very happy to hear this, it is very, very kind of you, but I am just a student as yourself! I am far away from coaching somebody else, but I got very glad to hear it! :love:

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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maxi_j

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I prefer folding KJo pre. Bet on flop and large (75%) you don`t block top pair. Straight combos are most in disguise. And then on most board is paired or flush is come I prefer not to 3Bet just call raise, because people usually are to passive in micros so raise means very strong range (on turn and river)
 
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Ianmacca99

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So obviously it went open from utg2 mp flats and I certainly don't mind the call here in the bb.

On the flop you've checked and now IMO you have a crystal clear check raise your wanting to build a pot against top pair hands like AK which also have a gutshot. AQ is going nowhere but he has 4 outs against you why give him a free chance to hit though,you have the equity edge at the moment.
as played I'm assuming you checked UTG cbet and both you and MP call

On the turn your now faced with a tricky decision AQ has got there and now it is time to slow down AA QQ KK and pocket 10s are in utg range and it's checked through. UTG has played this nicely IMO he is wanting MP to bet unfortunately his hand probably isn't strong enough and who is now capped to weak Ax hands or two pairs such as J10 which is a loose flat if he made that but checking was the right play now

On the river just call once raised what is he going to call a shove with ? Only a hand that beats yours
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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Hi there ventrolloquist, good morning, how you doing? Well, I am very happy to hear this, it is very, very kind of you, but I am just a student as yourself! I am far away from coaching somebody else, but I got very glad to hear it! :love:

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
I'm well, thank you. Good morning to you as well :).

Coaching or not your knowledge is valuable!



So obviously it went open from utg2 mp flats and I certainly don't mind the call here in the bb.

On the flop you've checked and now IMO you have a crystal clear check raise your wanting to build a pot against top pair hands like AK which also have a gutshot. AQ is going nowhere but he has 4 outs against you why give him a free chance to hit though,you have the equity edge at the moment.
as played I'm assuming you checked UTG cbet and both you and MP call

On the turn your now faced with a tricky decision AQ has got there and now it is time to slow down AA QQ KK and pocket 10s are in utg range and it's checked through. UTG has played this nicely IMO he is wanting MP to bet unfortunately his hand probably isn't strong enough and who is now capped to weak Ax hands or two pairs such as J10 which is a loose flat if he made that but checking was the right play now

On the river just call once raised what is he going to call a shove with ? Only a hand that beats yours

Thanks for explaining. I don't remember why exactly I didn't check raise since I normally get giddy whenever the opportunity to do it comes up, but I think it's because I wanted to keep both players in the pot... Now reading what you said thinking back about how many cumulative outs they had together (given their tight ranges) I see a check raise could have offered me more security. Then again UTG was limping in basically most of his hands and I pinned him as a rec so I'm not sure he would have folded his flopped 2 pair to any bet size. I'm starting to wonder if the limps may have been a table image trick because the guy had a 550bb stack [emoji52].
 
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fast_frog

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Yeah I think when someone raises river there on that board it's not trips (especially with the turn check) and they will never ever call worse so you're burning $ shoving.

I like raising flop too or donking (why were you sure MP will bet?) because when someone bets into multiple players they likely have some strong stuff on that board.
 
Cam54

Cam54

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See for me ... ... ... after the turn pairs, and then the checks ... I think I would have just followed suit maybe the half pot bet but .. a little probe, but after he jacks it, I'm just calling for sure .... and yeah you have to show me if I have the nut straight, but from RFI's position AQ tells a good story there and he can see the possible straight ... and with info on the player maybe I would have made your move ... but without that info .. I 'm going to be a lot more cautious there, even if I'm potentially giving up some value, and if they shove there instead of that 2.5 .. I'm thinking long and hard, but probably I'm out ( you didn't mention how much he had behind ) ... as an aside KJ out of position with action up front is an issue to me, and I may have not even called his opener unless I pegged them as some kind of agro/fish .... Just my 2 cents
 
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