Rebuys, why do you dislike them?

Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
I've seen in literally half a dozen threads I've read in the past hour, some variant of "I hate rebuys because the donks keep coming back".

...and every time I see this I cringe.

My question is this - why do you want the donks to go away? If a donk wants to rebuy half a dozen times, and get half a dozen stacks in as an underdog, and failing that perhaps get lucky and end the rebuy period with a big stack that is there for the taking, shouldn't we be happy that this is happening? Would you rather the chips be with players better than you or worse than you?

If you're playing in a cash game - do you ever groan when a donk busts and rebuys? I'd suspect not!

I guess I'm just seeking some sort of justification from someone for the "I hate rebuys because it'a a pain having to bust the same donk multiple times" line of reasoning. Fire away.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
The simplest way I can put it: the nature of rebuys means there will nearly always be a number of overly aggressive, chasing rebuyers with larger stacks than I have at almost any given time. If I'm at risk for all my chips nearly every time I have a good hand, all it takes is one of those good hands to end badly to knock me out
 
F

Freakakanus

Legend
combuboom pretty much echoes what i think...

I think it's just harder to get things going when you have to risk all your chips almost every hand until the first break. There is almost no such thing as buying a pot so you really are forced to wait for premium hands and then when you get them, they always seem to get cracked by someone playing bingo. I understand wanting to play with donks making bad calls on bad odds (in the long run) but for some reason those are always the people on the top of the leaderboard (in the short term).
 
Stick66

Stick66

Legend
I agree with what DM is getting at.

The only problems I have with rebuys is 1) Luck becomes a huge factor during the rebuy period, and 2) I feel like most of the time I have to spend the extra $$ for the add-on at the end of the rebuy period so I won't be at a disadvantage.

Otherwise, I don't mind most rebuys. I'll play tight & smart and some donk rebuyer will give his chips to me so I don't have to rebuy. Also, the prize pool increases every time someone rebuys meaning more prize money for me. "Rebuy away, boys!"
 
Lo-Dog

Lo-Dog

Cardschat Elite
OK, I could be out to lunch, but wouldnt the best strategy be to play loose and try to get as big a stack as possible? I mean I wouldnt play like a complete maniac but you pretty much have to loosen right up and go for the gusto. I don't really like to play this way so I avoid rebuy MTT's but seems like the best plan to me.

I posted a little story awhile ago about Daniel Negreanu playing the wsop rebuy event and he had 27 rebuys!!! All in almost every hand until he got a big ass stack. Went on to third place and made a nice profit.
 
Stick66

Stick66

Legend
Lo-Dog said:
wouldnt the best strategy be to play loose and try to get as big a stack as possible?

Sure. Only if you don't mind rebuying a few times. Daniel had the dough so he went for it. Call me a cheapskate, but I'd rather use a rebuyers money against him by letting him donk-off all his chips to me so I don't have to rebuy.

I guess there's 2 ways to go about it. To each his own.
 
Lo-Dog

Lo-Dog

Cardschat Elite
Well I am too cheap too to really play that way, although I am prepared to make them if I have to.

DN does this cause he figures he is much better than the other people at his table and that eventually he will take it back if he loses it. He wants as much money at his table as possible. This is another thing to think about: If no one was to rebuy at your table than you are in serious trouble as there is likely several tables that have many rebuys and therefore way bigger stacks.

As a side note I was just reading an article and apparently this year DN had 48 rebuys!!!! And did not do to well.
 
spore

spore

Rock Star
I don't like rebuys because most of the time the prize money i make for placing doesn't outweigh the amount i spent in rebuys. every once in a while.. i'll rebuy a few times and finish in the top 5 and come out ahead.. but usually i spend more on rebuys than i make. And I can make a heck of a lot more buying in once and finishing in the money ;)
 
nateofdeath

nateofdeath

Legend
I love rebuys!

Based on my own expirence, i think the issue here is that a lot of people go into them with a freezout mind set, thinking that, if i can just survive without rebuying, i'll get more money for just sneaking into the payouts. I used to look at them that way, and i can tell you that i've done a heck of a lot better since i've changed my perspective. You have to accept the fact that in order to be sucessful in a rebuy you have to be prepaired to rebuy as often as it takes, and add on everytime, regardless of your chip stack, requiring that you are willing to spend several times your innitial by in. Of course this format (especially in a cheap buy in) is going to cause people to play more loosely. yes people will play any two cards if there's enough money in the pot (and sometimes just for the heck of it), but you can use that to your advantage just as easily. So, if you are unwilling or unable to adapt to this style of play, or are not prepaired to spend the additional money on rebuys, just don't play. they aren't for everybody. I don't like single table SNG's so I just don't play them. If i did want to play them, i'd adjust my style of play to better suit such a format. adapt or die.

btw, playing the $3+R on stars tonight as i was writting this. check out these two hands. What's not to love?

-n

pokerstars Game #5704094004: Tournament #28499959, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2006/07/27 - 20:21:44 (ET)
Table '28499959 84' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: micksy (3160 in chips)
Seat 2: InfiniteJest (3330 in chips)
Seat 3: NotHimAgain (2950 in chips)
Seat 4: jojo15jul (1470 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: bodlabendikk (3050 in chips)
Seat 6: nateofdeath (2560 in chips)
Seat 7: DaGoond (3180 in chips)
Seat 8: stjoe (4260 in chips)
Seat 9: taco_joe (3040 in chips)
InfiniteJest: posts small blind 10
NotHimAgain: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nateofdeath [Ks Kc]
jojo15jul: folds
bodlabendikk: raises 3030 to 3050 and is all-in
nateofdeath: calls 2560 and is all-in
DaGoond: calls 3050
stjoe: folds
taco_joe: folds
micksy: folds
InfiniteJest: folds
NotHimAgain: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ts 7c 4c]
*** TURN *** [Ts 7c 4c] [2s]
*** RIVER *** [Ts 7c 4c 2s] [6s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bodlabendikk: shows [9s Th] (a pair of Tens)
DaGoond: shows [Jd Js] (a pair of Jacks)
DaGoond collected 980 from side pot
nateofdeath: shows [Ks Kc] (a pair of Kings)
nateofdeath collected 7710 from main pot
bodlabendikk re-buys and receives 1500 chips for $3.00
DaGoond re-buys and receives 1500 chips for $3.00
bodlabendikk re-buys and receives 1500 chips for $3.00
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8690 Main pot 7710. Side pot 980. | Rake 0
Board [Ts 7c 4c 2s 6s]
Seat 1: micksy (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: InfiniteJest (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: NotHimAgain (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: jojo15jul folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: bodlabendikk showed [9s Th] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 6: nateofdeath showed [Ks Kc] and won (7710) with a pair of Kings
Seat 7: DaGoond showed [Jd Js] and won (980) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: stjoe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: taco_joe folded before Flop (didn't bet)

-----

PokerStars Game #5704122884: Tournament #28499959, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2006/07/27 - 20:24:12 (ET)
Table '28499959 84' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: micksy (3310 in chips)
Seat 2: InfiniteJest (3180 in chips)
Seat 3: NotHimAgain (3050 in chips)
Seat 4: jojo15jul (1440 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: bodlabendikk (2980 in chips)
Seat 6: nateofdeath (7710 in chips)
Seat 7: DaGoond (2610 in chips)
Seat 8: stjoe (4180 in chips)
Seat 9: taco_joe (3040 in chips)
bodlabendikk: posts small blind 10
nateofdeath: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nateofdeath [Kc Kd]
DaGoond: folds
stjoe: calls 20
taco_joe: folds
micksy: calls 20
InfiniteJest: folds
NotHimAgain: folds
jojo15jul: folds
bodlabendikk: calls 10
nateofdeath: raises 7690 to 7710 and is all-in
stjoe: folds
micksy: folds
bodlabendikk: calls 2960 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [Qh 5d 2s]
*** TURN *** [Qh 5d 2s] [8s]
*** RIVER *** [Qh 5d 2s 8s] [As]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bodlabendikk: shows [6h 7h] (high card Ace)
nateofdeath: shows [Kc Kd] (a pair of Kings)
nateofdeath collected 6000 from pot
bodlabendikk re-buys and receives 1500 chips for $3.00
bodlabendikk re-buys and receives 1500 chips for $3.00
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6000 | Rake 0
Board [Qh 5d 2s 8s As]
Seat 1: micksy folded before Flop
Seat 2: InfiniteJest folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: NotHimAgain folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: jojo15jul (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: bodlabendikk (small blind) showed [6h 7h] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 6: nateofdeath (big blind) showed [Kc Kd] and won (6000) with a pair of Kings
Seat 7: DaGoond folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: stjoe folded before Flop
Seat 9: taco_joe folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
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joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend

I don't like rebuys because most of the time the prize money i make for placing doesn't outweigh the amount i spent in rebuys. every once in a while.. i'll rebuy a few times and finish in the top 5 and come out ahead.. but usually i spend more on rebuys than i make. And I can make a heck of a lot more buying in once and finishing in the money
wink.gif

you are looking for a top 3 finish in those rebuys.. the money payout from 30th-5th is trash compared to those top 5.. you get a big stack so you can be aggressive during the times the blinds are increasing and people are worried about bubbling, and so you can have a huge stack and a real chance at 1st when final table time comes around.

what sounds better: a few 15th-30th finishes with a few dollars profit total, or spending the $ for 5 rebuys and the addon and making $600 profit?
 
Kenzie 96

Kenzie 96

Legend
Awards
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Dorkus Malorkus said:
I've seen in literally half a dozen threads I've read in the past hour, some variant of "I hate rebuys because the donks keep coming back".

...and every time I see this I cringe.

My question is this - why do you want the donks to go away? Because I suspicion that the donk is I?:eek:
 
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F

Fish

Rock Star
I suspect that the reason most people "dislike" rebuys is because they don't understand how they work.

Technically a Rebuy Tournament doesn't even start until the rebuy/addon period ends. (Usually about an hour).
During the rebuy portion, you should be willing to get your money in with any edge no matter how minescule, and even while behind.
You have a coinflip and know it? Get it in there.
The object of the rebuy period is NOT survival (like in a freezeout), but is actually ACCUMULATION.

Many People play rebuys while vastly underrolled for the particular tournament.
They look at the list of available tourneys starting online, and say "Oh Boy, a $10 Tourney Starts in 4 minutes."
Then they look at their money and say "Crap, I only have $200 online and available for poker."
Then They say "Well, it's only 5% of my bankroll, so what's the problem? I will just play Tight and Aggressive".
They then say something along the lines of "Holy Crap! All these fish and donks at my table are pushing all-in with any pair just hoping to get lucky! They Suck, That's not poker! I can't afford to gamble with these donkfish!"

When the whole time, they just didn't understand Rebuys.
That is why many people dislike Rebuys.

By Fish.
 
F

Fish

Rock Star
joosebuck said:
a haiku by joose, entitled "rebuys :("

i dont like rebuys
all-in, any-two, i'm out
where are the skilled dudes?

Exactly what my post refers to.
 
DINGO8MYBABY

DINGO8MYBABY

Rock Star
Though I've won a couple of them, I dislike rebuys too, for the same reason I dislike Headhunter games, because play is affected.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

Legend
For what it`s worth, this is what I do...

I will play rebuys sometimes.

My strategy is simple, first hour anyway.

Go into the rebuy prepared to get one rebuy and one add on, therefore in a $10 rebuy I will accept I will spend $30. So straight away I look at my $30 as spent.

The first chance I get to lose the amount of the blind, (how negative!!!10/20 chips, I rebuy, effectivly doubling up. Then I tighten up waiting for premium hands. The rebuy at this stage is a feel good factor for me, nothing more. My aim is to double up before the first break, by double up I mean this - starting chips = 1500 + 1 rebuy = 3000 x 2 = 6000. Then I buy an add on giving me 7500. In most cases I find this is a fair amount of chips and after the rebuy period has finished I am normally in the top half. Then I will start to take chips off the guys who were lucky - they don`t change their style, or the `proper` players who respect your raises.

If I bust out early I make a decision - do I rebuy for another $10 making a total of $40, or do I cut and run saving me $20 (ie not doing what I was going to do, rebuy and add on, as I said at the start, I have accepted the $30 has gone)

I`ve only been playing poker 6 months, but one thing I do know is if u are patient the hands will come, if not this tourny the next. So I don`t see a problem playing tight, rebuy or not.

Now I am not saying I make millions doing this, but I do OK.

Interested to know what u guys thing of `Supersystem 3 - rebuys` :)

Ronaldadio
 
Sammyv1

Sammyv1

Legend
About those Re-buys, I've certainly have been doing well at them lately. The Strategy that has been working for me is TIGHT, TIGHT, TIGHT. Especially early. I use to hate rebuys, but I double up before the add on a couple of times at least. And then after the add on I'm in like 20th position. The thing is in these rebuy's people are crazy. After the add on, patience is doing really well in these. The crazies that made it aren't really that good after the the add-on.Just a little something I noticed.

Also I have a strict rule on these. I rebuy 1 time and 1 time only! I'm not sure where I came up with that rule. I guess it gives me a little le-way to get a bad beat, but I'm also not putting in a TON of money on 1 tourney! I ALWAYS!!!! add on, no matter what!
 
H

hellwolves

Guest
okay, so think about this now, i mean you knock a guy out and he rebuys in...in the VERY worst case scenario, u had the exact same amount of chips as he did...so now, u have twice as many chips as he does...that's a very big advantage...don't hate rebuyers...like em, itz jus easy chips for you, and chances are if he's stupid enuff to rebuy in, then he's jus plain bad or he's on tilt...
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
hellwolves said:
okay, so think about this now, i mean you knock a guy out and he rebuys in...in the VERY worst case scenario, u had the exact same amount of chips as he did...so now, u have twice as many chips as he does...that's a very big advantage...don't hate rebuyers...like em, itz jus easy chips for you, and chances are if he's stupid enuff to rebuy in, then he's jus plain bad or he's on tilt...

Ok bad enough this post is shotty english but the re-buy is about taking more chances. I like them alot.. if I know I am ahead in the hand and some donk is pushing me all-in.. I will hit the re-buy and call. I only do this once or twice.. Other times my own mentality is that of a freezeout, I lose and thats it, my hand selection still stays in the top 10 hands to make raises and call raises and/or all-ins with. Every now and then I will take a chance with mid pockets on an all-in cause some players love the Ace and doesn't matter to them what card is with it. Then you get the ones that will push with K X as well.

But another reason I view it as a freezout.. if I don't buy in or even per say add on.. the return investement of making the money is much more profitable then if I have rebought and/or added on.
 
G

geno9

Guest
in rebuys you got to realize your gonna get bad beated early because ppl are just trying to build big stacks quickly .. so its best to try and accumulate alot of chips early and than once rebuy period stops than play a solid game after that
 
T

Threesixes

Visionary
I love re-buys. I tend to play them different than most here. I usually dont re-buy. If you do, you are buying in at a disadvantage. (Others already have more chips than you), why buy in, when you can buy into another re-buy tourney when you will start out equal.

I also play the buy in period very tight, but SUPER agressive. I am all in with AA,KK,QQ,AK, and if I am behind I may lower my standards just a bit (JJ,10 10,AQ)to try and make up for it with a coin flip. There is always someone to call your all ins at a disadvantage. If they get lucky and Im busted out, thats it, on to the next tourney. Im basically trying to double and triple up each time I play a hand, and it doesnt take too many hands to get a huge lead. If it all works out, when the re-buy peiod ends, I am one of the larger stacks, and the bullying begins. The only re-buy MTTs I have ever won, have been when I DIDNT rebuy.
 
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