Is pot betting fundamentally flawed against super fish?

[Thinker_145]

I am starting to feel that building a pot in a way to get all the money in OTR is not an optimum way to play against super fish. They don't fold their draws and because it could be any draw its hard to get away with big hands when they do hit. And because we pay them off so much their calls aren't always as much -EV as we may think once you factor in the implied odds they got. Getting all the money in OTT seems like a far better way to play in my opinion.

I feel once we are HU against such players and flop a 2 pair or have a big over pair sort of a hand on a 2 tone board we could actually just outright shove the flop. I have experimented this a little and I got called by flush draws and OESDs several times. I also got called by TPWK sort of hands as well. Obviously there would be occasions where we lose value by making them fold their bottom pairs but I believe the value we will get by their drawing and dominated hands would more than make up for it.

Against particular opponents we could actually include TPGK hands as well in the mix. In such a strategy sometimes we will get called by sets and 2 pairs which would make us look silly but we were going to lose big money in that hand anyways.

The important differentiation here is how wet the board is. Primarily 2 tone boards offer most value here as almost no fish is folding a flush draw OTF.

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[IPlay]

Play against their range of hands, which includes much more hands then just draws. Also, who says we need to pay off when their draws hit?

 

[Zupek]

Against drawing calling station I easily make almost pot size bet (85-95%) and let them draw. Especially make this move when you are IP. Learn to folding when they hits their draws at river and dont pay them off. Thats simple. When you are semi-bluffing or something make like 50%pot size bet pots for control.

 

[Thinker_145]

I understand the point about folding when they hit and we can read that. Let's put this point aside for a minute.

I want to know why so much focus on just betting the pot? Why never 2x the pot?

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[WVHillbilly]

I understand the point about folding when they hit and we can read that. Let's put this point aside for a minute.

I want to know why so much focus on just betting the pot? Why never 2x the pot?

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If they're willing to call it, bet 2x or 3x or 10x. Most people only refer to standard 1/2 to 3/4 pot size bets because they're effective against the vast majority of players encountered. If you find fish willing to pay off much bigger bets by all means bet bigger. I like overbetting the pot when the situation is right and I know I'll still get called by worse (based on experience with the particular player involved).

 

[Beanfacekilla]

Bet as much as you think they will call with a worse hand.


I have bet 4x pot or more before, and been called by hands such as TPNK, Gutters, PPs with no set (less than top pair on board).



Play the opponent. For lack of a better term, rape them with offensive overbets.

 

[starting_at_the_bottom]

Irrespective of the answer to the question, you should not just mash the pot bet button when you think you have the best hand.

I see this so often at the tables, its just so super exploitable.

 

[BigCountryGB]

its just so super exploitable.

The fish aren't paying enough attention to what you are doing to exploit you. That's why they are fish. I don't think anyone is recommending mashing the pot button against a competent poster.

 

[Thinker_145]

Yes my bet sizing is pretty consistent against competent players whether I have the nuts or top pair.

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[pleasebluffme69]

2X the pot is more GTO if you believe they call with the same range of hands. as your optimal range is 2 values and 1 bluff. as long as you are willing to keep your same range betting higher is the way to go.

 

[pleasebluffme69]

i should add, that obviously there are exceptions to this, the better the player the more likely you can induce a semi bluff by certain amounts. on a k 10 2 flop after i 3bet pre even with top set im betting in to it oop, they have too many gutshots in their to check. you can induce a lot of raises cbetting that as it might acutally look weak to them. hope these answers help.

 

[starting_at_the_bottom]

Yes my bet sizing is pretty consistent against competent players whether I have the nuts or top pair.

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But what about a semi bluff continuation bet, or air?

You need to think about all ranges not just the value side.

 

[duggs]

i mean, i overbet more v good players than weaker players. but often just overbet v whales also

 

[WVHillbilly]

i mean, i overbet more v good players than weaker players. but often just overbet v whales also

To get more folds or to out-level and induce lighter calls?

 

[Thinker_145]

But what about a semi bluff continuation bet, or air?

You need to think about all ranges not just the value side.

Yes I know and my betting remains the same regardless if its a bluff.

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[duggs]

To get more folds or to out-level and induce lighter calls?

well both, any time its polar v bluff catcher it makes sense to go big.

 

[matiusaa]

I understand the point about folding when they hit and we can read that. Let's put this point aside for a minute.

I want to know why so much focus on just betting the pot? Why never 2x the pot?

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You can also raise bigger preflop when you know you are going to play this players

 

[Thinker_145]

You can also raise bigger preflop when you know you are going to play this players

Yes I have been thinking about doing this. Currently I make the same pre flop open raise with every hand on every table. Changing this will clearly give a tell to observant regs but I am not sure if its worth losing value against fishes.

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[MrBadAss]

agains that calling stations that does not give attention to the size they are call each street, and in their mind they are just looking for the draw, i dont pot but i bet like 80-85% i think its perfect because at the turn you can almost shove his stack

 

[Vadim Kudimov]

I can tell you so, because now I'm in the axle at the micro stakes, then I have to take into account that around me a lot of fish. And if I enter into the game, mentally prepared for what will have to go all-in just seeing the flop. If me do not give even see the flop, are forced to go all-in before after the flop, I will not hesitate to throw off even the cards like AK, and the pair below the QQ.