Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[or3o1990]

Yeah it was a good sweat, and hopefully it's something that will help boost your confidence going forward. Sometimes that's all we need to get on a roll.

I think your hand looks great. I think this deep at FR there's not much else you can do here really. I wouldn't try and bluff someone off of K's at these stakes. And it's just much harder to rep Ax once you c/c the flop. So AA becomes harder as well.

Yeah I sure hope so!

His hand did seem a bit face up here but my thoughts were how often will he fold and how much do I have to bet to make him consider it. I felt like I had to bet min 80 and I wasn't so sure how often he's folding to that so I decided to let it go. I think if we weren't so deep I would have felt more comfortable taking a stab.

 

[or3o1990]

Hey John, is there any way you can link me to a download of the Hitman HUD? I'm having a terrible time trying to download it off of the website.. I'm trying to replicate it but I'm missing a couple of stats.

 

[Figaroo2]

I found the sweat useful as well. We both picked up how much more attention John was paying to the hands that were weren't in noting for example when John commented that someone had missed some value at showdown. Personally I wasn't even looking and maybe this is one of the issues with too much multi tabling.
So last night I played fewer tables and vowed to pay more attention . Not that it helped me as I got crushed by a series of poor run outs on my premium hands and lost 6BI to a bunch of crazy fish betting every hand and every street at 5nl.
Anyway on the QQ hand as soon as he checked the turn he is clearly scared of the ace. Any Ace is betting there for value. Problem is that we have also checked the turn so he's thinking the same of us. I just wondered if typing "you have KK" in the chat window and shoving might have got through there but you don't know if they are good enough to fold.
We also managed to save a BI advising oro to fold a straight on the river facing two all ins when the board paired on the end us having had the nuts on the turn. Very annoying but one did flip over the expected boat.

 

[John A]

Hey John, is there any way you can link me to a download of the Hitman HUD? I'm having a terrible time trying to download it off of the website.. I'm trying to replicate it but I'm missing a couple of stats.

Ok, yeah Brian told me someone was having an issue. That must be you. I think something is messed up right now on the server re-direct. I'll get it resolved.

Can fig or someone send him the HUD? I'm transitioning systems right now, so my setup is a mess.

 

[John A]

I found the sweat useful as well. We both picked up how much more attention John was paying to the hands that were weren't in noting for example when John commented that someone had missed some value at showdown. Personally I wasn't even looking and maybe this is one of the issues with too much multi tabling.
So last night I played fewer tables and vowed to pay more attention . Not that it helped me as I got crushed by a series of poor run outs on my premium hands and lost 6BI to a bunch of crazy fish betting every hand and every street at 5nl.
Anyway on the QQ hand as soon as he checked the turn he is clearly scared of the ace. Any Ace is betting there for value. Problem is that we have also checked the turn so he's thinking the same of us. I just wondered if typing "you have KK" in the chat window and shoving might have got through there but you don't know if they are good enough to fold.
We also managed to save a BI advising oro to fold a straight on the river facing two all ins when the board paired on the end us having had the nuts on the turn. Very annoying but one did flip over the expected boat.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Like I said when we started, it's honestly one of the ways I moved up so quick and become good at poker. I was in a regular sweat / chat group of players who ended up becoming good mid and high stakes regs. We learned a ton from each other, so hopefully we'll continue to grow it and get others involved who want to really start crushing this game.

We'll slow it down and make the game much easier.

But yeah, w/ the QQ hand... I think if you add in that he could have check the turn w/ AK, and people aren't apt to fold, the amount you'd have to bet to get a fold would make it super close. I'm not sure the variance is worth it for something that could be close to neutral EV w/ no way to leverage that w/ future history against someone.

 

[Figaroo2]

Help

I hate this sodding hand, I'm always spewing with it.
What is the best way to play this. Do we 4 bet? 4bet shove or flat?
Villain is from this stats a semi competent reg, not very agg who calls a fair amount.
I have marked him just 4bet shove for next time.

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $2.07 (20.7 bb)
BB: $12.47 (124.7 bb)
UTG+1: $11.14 (111.4 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $10 (100 bb)
MP1: $16.73 (167.3 bb)
MP2: $10.17 (101.7 bb)
MP3: $11.23 (112.3 bb) 25/10/agg% 28 in 115, 6% 3bet mainly from the button
CO: $5 (50 bb)
BTN: $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A:club: K:club:
UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $0.35, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $1.15, 4 folds, Hero raises to $2.88, MP3 calls $1.73

Flop: ($5.91) 5:club: 9:diamond: 8:heart: (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks

Turn: ($5.91) Q:spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $2.95, MP3 raises to $8.35 and is all-in, Hero folds

tried to use the Q as a scare card clearly he has it though.

Results: $11.81 pot ($0.59 rake)
Final Board: 5:club: 9:diamond: 8:heart: Q:spade:
Hero mucked A:club: K:club: and lost (-$5.83 net)
MP3 mucked and won $11.22 ($5.39 net)

 

[or3o1990]

Ok, yeah Brian told me someone was having an issue. That must be you. I think something is messed up right now on the server re-direct. I'll get it resolved.

Yeah that was me.

I hate this sodding hand, I'm always spewing with it.
What is the best way to play this. Do we 4 bet? 4bet shove or flat?
Villain is from this stats a semi competent reg, not very agg who calls a fair amount.
I have marked him just 4bet shove for next time.

Maybe he was a little stronger than normal this time given that you raised utg and he 3bet? I would have reraised more, I 3x when I'm 3betting and also when I'm 4 betting. Is that bad?

I probably just call his reraise call the flop and fold the turn. Unless i'm confident that he's 3betting light, then I'd make my 4bet like 3.50 continue on the flop and check fold the turn. If he was the type to float alot and I was in later position maybe i'd bet or call the turn and and decide on the river? But if he's a decent reg we expect that he's aware of our utg range somewhat so I probably give him credit on the turn here.

 

[John A]

I hate this sodding hand, I'm always spewing with it.
What is the best way to play this. Do we 4 bet? 4bet shove or flat?
Villain is from this stats a semi competent reg, not very agg who calls a fair amount.
I have marked him just 4bet shove for next time.

Pacific, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $2.07 (20.7 bb)
BB: $12.47 (124.7 bb)
UTG+1: $11.14 (111.4 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $10 (100 bb)
MP1: $16.73 (167.3 bb)
MP2: $10.17 (101.7 bb)
MP3: $11.23 (112.3 bb) 25/10/agg% 28 in 115, 6% 3bet mainly from the button
CO: $5 (50 bb)
BTN: $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A♣ K♣
UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $0.35, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $1.15, 4 folds, Hero raises to $2.88, MP3 calls $1.73

Flop: ($5.91) 5♣ 9♦ 8♥ (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks

Turn: ($5.91) Q♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $2.95, MP3 raises to $8.35 and is all-in, Hero folds

tried to use the Q as a scare card clearly he has it though.

Results: $11.81 pot ($0.59 rake)
Final Board: 5♣ 9♦ 8♥ Q♠
Hero mucked A♣ K♣ and lost (-$5.83 net)
MP3 mucked and won $11.22 ($5.39 net)

If he's not very aggro, I probably flat and lead most flops. I think it's the highest EV approach against someone like this. As played, I think if you check the flop, then you should just give up on the turn. I mean you 4-bet. What are you checking and then betting the turn with?

 

[John A]

Also, what do you guys think about a permanent google hangout that's open. We can have a regular weekly sweet time, but anyone can pop in, ask questions about hands, and sweat others if they want?

Or if you have another idea I'm open of course.

 

[Figaroo2]

If he's not very aggro, I probably flat and lead most flops. I think it's the highest EV approach against someone like this. As played, I think if you check the flop, then you should just give up on the turn. I mean you 4-bet. What are you checking and then betting the turn with?

,,,,,good point,,,

I nearly always 4 bet AK here to balance some of my other light 4 betting. Even if I sometimes spew a bit with my 4 betting it certainly stops the light 3bettors from picking on you.
I sometimes vary my 4 bet sizing depending on how fishy they are.
Here I missed the point that as I was utg, he must be premium tbh. Another missed point from playing too fast..(re-occurring theme)

or3o if you are 4betting for value x3 is okay, but how do you size your 4 bet bluffs then? so does this mean you aren't 4 bet bluffing?

So flat the 3bet and lead out. Isn't that just going to get raised most of the time? Maybe into a passive I could see the donk working, but not if they are aggro.

I've never used Google hangouts. I'll have a look at it.

 

[John A]

,,,,,good point,,,

I nearly always 4 bet AK here to balance some of my other light 4 betting. Even if I sometimes spew a bit with my 4 betting it certainly stops the light 3bettors from picking on you.
I sometimes vary my 4 bet sizing depending on how fishy they are.
Here I missed the point that as I was utg, he must be premium tbh. Another missed point from playing too fast..(re-occurring theme)

or3o if you are 4betting for value x3 is okay, but how do you size your 4 bet bluffs then? so does this mean you aren't 4 bet bluffing?

So flat the 3bet and lead out. Isn't that just going to get raised most of the time? Maybe into a passive I could see the donk working, but not if they are aggro.

I've never used Google hangouts. I'll have a look at it.

Correct... but that's why I suggested it against this type of opponent. And really, even aggressive opponents slow down in re-raised pots. But this is the ideal spot to call and lead if you whiff and try and push out splits.

 

[rhombus]

If he's not very aggro, I probably flat and lead most flops. I think it's the highest EV approach against someone like this. As played, I think if you check the flop, then you should just give up on the turn. I mean you 4-bet. What are you checking and then betting the turn with?

If its difficult to represent anything if you check the Flop and bet the Turn, is it a good line to take with something like JJ QQ if the turn was say a brick.

You say you tried to represent the Queen but what hands ar you scaring away that you dont already beat maybe Ts or Js and because its only a small bet tthey probably call with them. Id have bet flop and checked turn

PS whats google hangouts, Ive seen in on my Nexus but never used it

John trying to turn us all into techy geeks :joyman: lol

 

[John A]

If its difficult to represent anything if you check the Flop and bet the Turn, is it a good line to take with something like JJ QQ if the turn was say a brick.

You say you tried to represent the Queen but what hands ar you scaring away that you dont already beat maybe Ts or Js and because its only a small bet tthey probably call with them. Id have bet flop and checked turn

PS whats google hangouts, Ive seen in on my Nexus but never used it

John trying to turn us all into techy geeks :joyman: lol

Hehe... google hangouts is super simple to use. I've used it before in big chats. It's cross platform and you just need a gmail account to use it. I'm still looking into what would be best, but an open room would be great for everyone I think.

 

[rhombus]

Hehe... google hangouts is super simple to use. I've used it before in big chats. It's cross platform and you just need a gmail account to use it. I'm still looking into what would be best, but an open room would be great for everyone I think.

Ok sounds good.

Im runing awful at the moment down $217K or so my HM2 says

 

[or3o1990]

I'm always paying off in these spots. Whenever there's a pair higher than what i'm holding unless the villain is betting the pot I'm usually leaning toward calling. This spot reminded me of the spot I was in the other day with QQ against KK. The guy not betting the turn and there being two aces on board made me think maybe he's got QQ. In hindsight I don't know why I thought this guy would be trying to bluff or value bet with QQ here.

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 42.35 BB
MP+1: 98.5 BB
MP+2: 31.12 BB
CO: 88.5 BB
BTN: 96 BB
Hero (SB): 153.8 BB
BB: 38.5 BB
UTG: 101.75 BB
UTG+1: 98.5 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:diamond: K:spade:

UTG raises to 2 BB, fold, MP calls 2 BB, fold, MP+2 calls 2 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 12 BB, fold, UTG calls 10 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (29 BB, 2 players) 6:club: A:club: 6:heart:
Hero bets 15 BB, UTG calls 15 BB

Turn: (59 BB, 2 players) A:diamond:
Hero checks, UTG checks

River: (59 BB, 2 players) 3:spade:
Hero checks, UTG bets 25 BB, Hero calls 25 BB

UTG shows A:spade: Q:heart: (Full House, Aces full of Sixes)

UTG wins 106 BB

Since the sweat the other day I've been focusing A LOT more on making reads before making these types of calls.

 

[Figaroo2]

This is a classic WA/WB spot, but out of position.
I would check this flop and let him bet with his full range.
If we bet in a 3bet pot like this we are only getting called by better.
Call him once and if he bets again you know you're beat. JJ QQ isn't usually betting twice in 3bet pot here.
We discussed this recently in this thread, its worth a read in case you missed it.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/2-nlhe-6-max-spew-missed-272529/
And there is a link in there to another good wa/wb post.

 

[Figaroo2]

whale playing virtually every hand

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $25.61 (102.4 bb) LAG player
BB: $35.46 (141.8 bb)
UTG+2: $24.25 (97 bb)
MP1: $57.19 (228.8 bb) WHALE
MP2: $25 (100 bb)
MP3: $28.13 (112.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $57.26 (229 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q♣ Q♠
UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, BTN folds, SB calls $2.40 !!??, BB folds, MP1 calls $2.00

Flop: ($7.75) 5♠ 3♦ 7♠ (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets $4.54, Hero calls $4.54, SB folds

Turn: ($16.83) 3♣ (2 players)
MP1 bets $6.60, Hero calls $6.60

River: ($30.03) 6♣ (2 players)
MP1 bets $12.90
Hero??
The bugger could have anything here, bite the bullet or fold?
Should we re-raise on the flop and GII on then blank turn?

 

[Figaroo2]

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $26.96 (107.8 bb)
Hero (BB): $31.17 (124.7 bb)
UTG+2: $25 (100 bb)
MP1: $25 (100 bb)
MP2: $58.43 (233.7 bb)
MP3: $23.49 (94 bb)
CO: $25.89 (103.6 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb) Decent reg 17/15 agg35% in 425 hands
opens from btn 40%. fold to 3bet 33%

Preflop: Hero is BB with J:spade: J:diamond:
5 folds, BTN raises to $0.62, SB folds, Hero raises to $1.96, BTN calls $1.34

Flop: ($4.02) 4:club: 2:diamond: 8:club: (2 players)
Hero bets $2.88, BTN raises to $7.20, Hero?
Jam it in against his range or call and call a shove?

 

[or3o1990]

whale playing virtually every hand

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $25.61 (102.4 bb) LAG player
BB: $35.46 (141.8 bb)
UTG+2: $24.25 (97 bb)
MP1: $57.19 (228.8 bb) WHALE
MP2: $25 (100 bb)
MP3: $28.13 (112.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $57.26 (229 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q♣ Q♠
UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, BTN folds, SB calls $2.40 !!??, BB folds, MP1 calls $2.00

Flop: ($7.75) 5♠ 3♦ 7♠ (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets $4.54, Hero calls $4.54, SB folds

Turn: ($16.83) 3♣ (2 players)
MP1 bets $6.60, Hero calls $6.60

River: ($30.03) 6♣ (2 players)
MP1 bets $12.90
Hero??
The bugger could have anything here, bite the bullet or fold?
Should we re-raise on the flop and GII on then blank turn?

I'm biting the bullet here but I think I prefer calling him down just to let him bluff if that's what he's doing. Looks alot like a flush draw or a pair that's trying to get you to go away to me.

I'm going to take a look at the link you posted.

 

[John A]

Ok sounds good.

Im runing awful at the moment down $217K or so my HM2 says

Ha... what happened with your HM2?

 

[John A]

whale playing virtually every hand

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $25.61 (102.4 bb) LAG player
BB: $35.46 (141.8 bb)
UTG+2: $24.25 (97 bb)
MP1: $57.19 (228.8 bb) WHALE
MP2: $25 (100 bb)
MP3: $28.13 (112.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $57.26 (229 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q♣ Q♠
UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, BTN folds, SB calls $2.40 !!??, BB folds, MP1 calls $2.00

Flop: ($7.75) 5♠ 3♦ 7♠ (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets $4.54, Hero calls $4.54, SB folds

Turn: ($16.83) 3♣ (2 players)
MP1 bets $6.60, Hero calls $6.60

River: ($30.03) 6♣ (2 players)
MP1 bets $12.90
Hero??
The bugger could have anything here, bite the bullet or fold?
Should we re-raise on the flop and GII on then blank turn?

Raise the flop. He's going to continue with worse and then you can build a pot and get it in quick. I'm raising the turn also. As played, call down. You under repped your hand, and like you said he could have any 2. He'll probably have 2 pair a lot, but if he's aggressive he's going to have enough busted draws here for it to be profitable, or just donk betting w/ top pair over pairs.

 

[John A]

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $26.96 (107.8 bb)
Hero (BB): $31.17 (124.7 bb)
UTG+2: $25 (100 bb)
MP1: $25 (100 bb)
MP2: $58.43 (233.7 bb)
MP3: $23.49 (94 bb)
CO: $25.89 (103.6 bb)
BTN: $25 (100 bb) Decent reg 17/15 agg35% in 425 hands
opens from btn 40%. fold to 3bet 33%

Preflop: Hero is BB with J♠ J♦
5 folds, BTN raises to $0.62, SB folds, Hero raises to $1.96, BTN calls $1.34

Flop: ($4.02) 4♣ 2♦ 8♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $2.88, BTN raises to $7.20, Hero?
Jam it in against his range or call and call a shove?

Hmmm... seems tight and probably not aggressive enough to jam the turn so I probably just jam here even if he pushes his air range out. If he was more aggressive I'd probably prefer calling and then CRAI or calling the turn jam.

 

[Figaroo2]

How do we run

How do we run......
Whale had 53 for a boat. JJ hand I shoved, he had a set of 8's.
I'm down about 7BI this week at 25nl and cash table confidence is low. This despite having tightened up a fraction, dumping the 22/33/44 from utg, 3betting a little more and calling a little less.
I've been running bad for a while at 25.
I seem to be going well in tournys but don't get enough time to play many.
I've dropped right down and just messing about now on Ipoker 365 at the bottom level...at least i can beat that.
Are we doing a sweat tomorrow?
I notice you need google Crome to run the hangouts thing. I won't download Crome until necessary, I'm usually Mr Anti google anything tbh.

 

[hutzpaf]

I notice you need google Crome to run the hangouts thing. I won't download Crome until necessary, I'm usually Mr Anti google anything tbh.

Hangout also works in Firefox. I tested it with a friend and it worked, but I don't know how to work with a bigger group. Maybe John will tell us more about that.

 

[John A]

How do we run......
Whale had 53 for a boat. JJ hand I shoved, he had a set of 8's.
I'm down about 7BI this week at 25nl and cash table confidence is low. This despite having tightened up a fraction, dumping the 22/33/44 from utg, 3betting a little more and calling a little less.
I've been running bad for a while at 25.
I seem to be going well in tournys but don't get enough time to play many.
I've dropped right down and just messing about now on Ipoker 365 at the bottom level...at least i can beat that.
Are we doing a sweat tomorrow?
I notice you need google Crome to run the hangouts thing. I won't download Crome until necessary, I'm usually Mr Anti google anything tbh.

Yeah, it's poker.

But yeah... we'll set something up for next week. I want to get some solid platform chosen so we can stick to it long term as the group grows. So I'm open to all suggestions, and I definitely want some help choosing what we should use since I have a full plate myself right now.