Playing post flop

IrishDave

IrishDave

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I play mainly SNGs of the $5 and $10 variety and I've come to the conclusion that until you reach the final table a pre-flop raise is useless. So many fish will play 2 suited cards or an ace-rag, and catch, that you're better off making a hand before you push. Just won a $5, 27 person SNG at Stars and if I hadn't have used this strategy I'd have been knocked out in the first 15 minutes. I layed down Qs and Ks because the flop was suited and both times the fish caught the flush with a card under a 9. Be being VERY patient and picking my spots I was able to let the fish screw themselves and finally won an event on Stars. Once we got to the last 5 or so, the play became more "normal" and you could play by the book - as raises were respected.

My thanks to my friend Grumbledook who cusses me out frequently for being way to impatient. He is without a doubt correct on this one and I'm really focusing on that aspect of my game...
 
Grumbledook

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Good to see my insults are getting through ;]

Learning the hard way, like us all!
 
Four Dogs

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What are you suggesting Dave? That you limp in with your Ks and Qs? 'dook, you seems like an odd bedfellow for that strategy. Aren't you the crowned prince of preflop raises?
 
Grumbledook

Grumbledook

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Its not that strategy I play with.

I've just told him to be more patient and play against the table rather than relying on your own hand all the time.

If its easier for him to let go of hands by calling preflop rather than raising and going bust then its a step in the right direction.

Of course I punish anyone following this strategy, nothing I love more than to take limped bets preflop.

I'd say you always want to raise preflop with QQ and KK, if your getting fishy callers then try larger raises and shoving on the flop (be careful of an Ace on the board tho). Ok you will still get sucked out or outflopped on occasion, but its often good to just take a pot rather than building it up and losing it. Well its always better to take the pot than lose it but I tihnk you know what I mean.
 
IrishDave

IrishDave

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My point is that a large pre-flop raise is supposed to force out the marginal hands - the ones that will kill you when they catch. Lately, I've even had allins called by 8-2 suited and the idiot catches a flush and busts your premium pair. Now I'd rather see the flop (and bail if it's suited) than try to force these idiots off their suited cards. Played in a $10 Prima SNG yesterday and there were 6 consecutive flushes - and none with a premium hand. Dook would never play like this but I wanted to thank him for making me more patient in my play...
 
Dennis C

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Wouldn't a pre-flop raise get some out? I know like you said that idiots are going to call, but wouldn't it be better to get a few out instead of playing your premium cards against 6 or 7 people?
 
osirisdean

osirisdean

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Grumbledook said:
Its not that strategy I play with.

I've just told him to be more patient and play against the table rather than relying on your own hand all the time.

If its easier for him to let go of hands by calling preflop rather than raising and going bust then its a step in the right direction.

Of course I punish anyone following this strategy, nothing I love more than to take limped bets preflop.

I'd say you always want to raise preflop with QQ and KK, if your getting fishy callers then try larger raises and shoving on the flop (be careful of an Ace on the board tho). Ok you will still get sucked out or outflopped on occasion, but its often good to just take a pot rather than building it up and losing it. Well its always better to take the pot than lose it but I tihnk you know what I mean.

that sounds like a much more solid strategy than the initial post. if you limp in with high pocket pairs, you are only inviting an outdraw. remember, you WANT a call or two when you raise with your AA, and you do NOT WANT the whole table calling. therefore, a preflop raise is appropriate.

how much to raise... if your average 3BB raise does nothing but make the family pot bigger, then raise more. you should be willing to commit a third to half your stack to the pot with AA,KK, ~QQ if you think it will slim the field to one or two. betting less may receive too many callers as mentioned, but betting more hurts you on the flop since the amount you now have to push in postflop will be giving correct pot odds for a call to your preflop callers.

remember that you as a solid poker player capitalize on other people's mistakes. you *want* them calling with T7s when you have AA. you also *want* them calling your pot-sized bet on the flop when they are on the come. outdraws always hurt, but if you could play AA vs a flush draw every hand, you should still want to.
 
IrishDave

IrishDave

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I understand the reasoning behind a pre-flop raise but from my experience the only thing it does is sweeten the pot for the catch. Played 5 SNGs yesterday on a number of sites and I only saw AA or KK hold up once. Almost every time they were taken out by the "any 2 suited card" flush or "any connector" straight. I agree that in the long term the odds will normalize and the big pairs will succeed; however, in the SNGs I play you can also go broke very quickly. The last one I played, UTG made a 1/3 stack pre-flop raise (about 600 chips) and had 1 caller with 8-3 suited. Yes, the aces were cracked by a river flush and this is a very common occurance.

Note that I'm only talking about SNG play and not ring games. Also, if I'm at a "reasonable" table I'll go back to the usual strategy of betting premium hands pre-flop...
 
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