Playing mid-range pp's

S

slumpbreaker

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Lately I've been seeming to pick up 88, 99, 10 10 more than usual. Generally, I seem to play these types of hands completely different in person than I do online. What I was wondering is how anyone feels the most successful way to play them online is?

I've generally been raising pre flop and mucking if I don't hit if there are a couple overs on the flop.

Let me know what angles you've been playing?
 
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slayerx

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I tend to play them in a similar style.

I wouldn't always raise pre-flop I tend to look for a few things before deciding how to play them.

Position, number of players in the hand and my stack.

If I'm in a good position but there's a lot of players in i won't raise because if I hit I'm still getting a decent pot if I hit something and win.

I also try mix it up with my raises if I do raise which is normally when there are fewer plays in the pot but i have position.
 
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JD1909

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I raise with these hands to try and go up against one, possibly two opponents. Having position is very helpful as a lot of the time you have to end up cbetting and getting called with an over. If I'm in position and it's checked to me I of course will bet. But when it's bet to me that's when you have to identify the player, the bet, and if you think he'll check the turn to you.
 
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unlucky

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For me it depends if its a cash game or tourney. If its a cash game I always raise. If its a tourney it depends on position I'm in or how many people are left(sng's). If I'm in late postion and last to act on the flop , If its checked to me I almost always bet the flop. I can represent a K or A if it falls on the flop or if its all rags I probably have the best hand anyway. If its early in the tourney and I'm in first position I may just limp and try to catch a set. But then again if the table is tight I may raise. There is many different ways to play them this is just how I normally do it right or wrong.
 
Goldog

Goldog

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I've generally been raising pre flop and mucking if I don't hit if there are a couple overs on the flop.

IMO the worst option. Why raise if you're not going to follow through. If you raise and fold too much people will run over you.

Either Raise and C-bet or limp and fold. Mostly I do this according to position, my table image and the general table character.

When you raise with position people assume you have high cards. The follow thru on a flop with high cards will reinforce that. They'll let you know if you're beat. If raised you can let it go. If they just call you've got a chance for a free river card by checking along.

Limping is probably better if you anticipate a multi-way pot. See a flop and get out cheap if you miss depending on the texture.

Goldog
 
stormswa

stormswa

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you really have not given us enough info to make a educated decision on how to play them.

not even going to attempt at it.
 
TheJace

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Personally I always limp in with any pocket pair 22-1010, rarely I'll raise with 1010 though. I always limp because youre like 1-7.5 to hit your set and if you raise and don't hit it you're just throwing money away. Plus if you raise and hit your set but there is overcards out there people may fold a pair of overcards respecting your preflop raise & supposed continuation bet. I read an article about this subject in cardplayer. I'll see if I can find it. But it basically explains you get paid off way more just by limping. The value of deception pretty much. Hope this helps. Time for a smoke break for me. Peace boys n girls.
:smokin:
 
stormswa

stormswa

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Personally I always limp in with any pocket pair 22-1010, rarely I'll raise with 1010 though. I always limp because youre like 1-7.5 to hit your set and if you raise and don't hit it you're just throwing money away. Plus if you raise and hit your set but there is overcards out there people may fold a pair of overcards respecting your preflop raise & supposed continuation bet. I read an article about this subject in cardplayer. I'll see if I can find it. But it basically explains you get paid off way more just by limping. The value of deception pretty much. Hope this helps. Time for a smoke break for me. Peace boys n girls.
:smokin:

so it folds to you on the button and you limp with your 66, wow strong play. :rolleyes:


seriously though this is pretty horrible advice and not picking on you but it really is, if you are limping all your pairs with no regard to position or how many are in pot or any of the other factors then you seriously need to change how you play. Limping regardless of any of the really important information in the hand is just well its just dumb.

and why do you need to hit a set in order to win the pot? TT and you limp and flop comes down 459 what do you do now? because you have no clue in the world what anyone has.
 
Beavis68

Beavis68

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Is this for limit or no limit?

In NL

10s I raise anywhere. If I get the pot heads up I will usually take a stab at the pot

8s, I don't like to raise a lot of limpers I will usually just call and play for set value, if only 1 or 2 people are in, I will raise to try to take the pot or get heads up, and will make a CB on flop if checked too.

If I have more than two opponents on the flop I usually do not CB, especially on a coordinated flop. Does a call me he hit is K or is on a draw?
 
TheJace

TheJace

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Storms, I meant usually needing a set if there are overpairs and I don't raise low pairs on the button because I'd wrather have the deception it makes me a lot more money. Rarely I'll raise with 9s or 10s to mix it up but I find limping to be more profitable and if the flop came 459 I'd bet or raise to see where I'm at in the hand. If you think It's stupid to limp with the pairs then don't do it It's just what I do. :icon_thum
 
stormswa

stormswa

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Storms, I meant usually needing a set if there are overpairs and I don't raise low pairs on the button because I'd wrather have the deception it makes me a lot more money. Rarely I'll raise with 9s or 10s to mix it up but I find limping to be more profitable. If you think It's stupid don't do it It's just what I do. :icon_thum



just trying to understand why?

Ive never heard and I have talked to tons of players, high level and low level players and I have never ever ever heard a single one say they would ever ever ever limp pocket pair on the button with blinds only to act. Do you understand your range pretty much crushes theirs?

and honestly you dont always need a set, there are tons of dry flops you can bet without hitting. Trust me I will never play them like that, only time you should be limping is if there are callers before you and you feel you can get paid off if you hit. Other then that you should be raising them every time you enter a pot with them.
 
TheJace

TheJace

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Deception. By the way I'm talking about cash games mainly here. I dunno about you but I make a shit load of more money with a hidden set than by taking down a small raised pot. Peace.
 
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stormswa

stormswa

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Deception. By the way I'm talking about cash games mainly here. I dunno about you but I make a shit load of more money with a hidden set than by taking down a small raised pot. Peace.

yes but how about all the times you have limped and had to fold the flop 87% of the time?

you are not going to stack someone 100% of the time when you flop a set. I bet if you went through all you pokertracker numbers you would be down money from pocket pairs.
 
TheJace

TheJace

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Not really. The odds of flopping a set or better with a pocket pair are 7.5-1. so ok 7.5 BB big deal. I've had my sets paid off in full more times than I can count and easily take pots that cover the measly 7.5 BB. Also the reverse can be true. You can be losing money with your raises to overcards on the flop when you don't hit. The advantage to limping with small/medium pairs in a cash game is the value of deception and more likely to get a big payoff. Whats the value of raising them? You say "hey I have some kinda pair or good cards" so if you come out strong when you hit your set then you're opponents are much more likely to put the pieces together and fold. Good job you got a couple extra blinds whoop-dee-doo-da. Good in a tournament/SnG but I don't prefer it in cash games. But whatever floats your boat.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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Not really. The odds of flopping a set or better with a pocket pair are 7.5-1. so ok 7.5 BB big deal. I've had my sets paid off in full more times than I can count and easily take pots that cover the measly 7.5 BB. Also the reverse can be true. You can be losing money with your raises to overcards on the flop when you don't hit. The advantage to limping with small/medium pairs in a cash game is the value of deception and more likely to get a big payoff. Whats the value of raising them? You say "hey I have some kinda pair or good cards" so if you come out strong when you hit your set then you're opponents are much more likely to put the pieces together and fold. Good job you got a couple extra blinds whoop-dee-doo-da. Good in a tournament/SnG but I don't prefer it in cash games. But whatever floats your boat.

flopping a set is 13%.


from Middle Pocket Pairs | Poker Strategy

When to raise with middle pairs before the flop

Most players make the mistake of automatically raising with middle pocket pairs, simply because they are middle pocket pairs. Raising with J-J or 10-10 before the flop should be reserved for situations where you are able to thin the field. These pocket pairs generally play well against one or two opponents. As soon as there are more than three opponents in the pot, middle pocket pairs are less likely to hold up without improvement.

Therefore, if you are in an early position and no one has called, you should go ahead and raise. Similarly, if you are in middle or late position and there is no more that one caller in the pot (aside from the big blind), you should raise and try to get it heads up or three handed.

If you are placed in a position where a reraise will almost certainly get it heads up, go ahead and reraise. However, if you reraise and more than two opponents call, be very careful after the flop.

In short, you raise for one purpose only: to thin the field. If your raise fails to thin the field, especially when you are in an early position, you should play very conservatively after the flop and be prepared to fold.

When to call with middle pairs before the flop

If a raise will not thin the field or there are more than two opponents in the pot already, simply call. Consider that calling with middle pocket pairs ends up being a terrific move when you flop a set in a multiway pot, because you have deception on your side and you're usually a very big favourite.

More to the point, with many players in the pot, your odds of success are significantly reduced. If you call and the flop contains overcards, you can fold cheaply. Many players raise and reraise with hands as weak as 8-8. Further, their preflop raising over-commits them to the pot and they will frequently bet or call on the flop when it is painfully obvious that they are behind. It would appear that they are hoping for a miracle 8 on the turn which rarely eventuates.

Many players would argue that you should raise before the flop in a late position with middle pocket pairs, even if two players have already entered the pot. There is some merit to that point of view. However, I find that a raise never knocks out the players who have already called. Since these preflop callers didn't raise themselves, my automatic presumption is that they hold reasonable hands, but want to see the flop cheaply. For example, if two preflop callers hold Q-10 and A-9 suited; and I hold 10-10, the preflop probabilities are as follows: Q-10 will win 25% of the time; As-9s will win 31% of the time; My 10-10 will win 44% of the time.

As such, my opponents will collectively win more often (56%) than I will (44%). If I raise in this situation, I am raising a pot that I will lose more often than I will win. Furthermore, if there are three opponents taking the flop, my chances of winning drop from 44% to around 33%, even if the third opponent holds two undercards to my pair. As such, call before the flop if it is multiway. Reserve your aggression for a favourable flop and fold cheaply on an unfavourable flop.

Also bear in mind that calling will hopefully keep the pot small. If you only call with 9-9 and an opponent has AJ, they may consider folding on a flop of 4-6-7 when you come out betting. Even if they don't fold on the flop, they will strongly consider folding on the turn without improvement. However, if you raise before the flop, this opponent may simply call you all the way to the river and try to "chase you down." Why? Because your preflop raise has inadvertently over-committed this opponent to the pot. You do not want any opponent to chase you all the way to the river with two overcards.

There is another great advantage in calling before the flop when there are two players already in the pot: you encourage opponents to obviously play their hands. If I call in the above three-handed situation and the flop comes A-6-3, the opponent holding As-9s will probably come out betting because there was no pre-flop raise. As such, they will immediately give their hand away and you can fold very cheaply. If you raise before the flop, the player is A-9 is likely to check to you on the flop and call if you bet. As a result, you will not get any information about the strength of his/her hand. Better to call before the flop and let your opponents give you the information you need.
 
TheJace

TheJace

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First of all everyone has their own style. Secondly we both know that there is no "right" way to play. Third I wouldn't blame anyone for raising with *anything* it could be 2/3 offsuit for all I care, I wouldn't blame them. Just look at Gus Hansen or Tony G. Crazy shit but I don't blame them. Anyways everyone has their own thing, you raise, I limp. I have my weaknesses like everyone else but one of my strengths is getting my sets paid off big time and one step that helps me do that is limping in with pairs. I'm simply trying to point out what my style of play is and why I do it. Do whatever you feel most comofortable with and seems to be most profitable to you. Limp, Raise, bla bla bla... Thats Poker. :cool:
 
stormswa

stormswa

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First of all everyone has their own style. Secondly we both know that there is no "right" way to play. Third I wouldn't blame anyone for raising with *anything* it could be 2/3 offsuit for all I care, I wouldn't blame them. Just look at Gus Hansen or Tony G. Crazy shit but I don't blame them. Anyways everyone has their own thing, you raise, I limp. I have my weaknesses like everyone else but one of my strengths is getting my sets paid off big time and one step that helps me do that is limping in with pairs. I'm simply trying to point out what my style of play is and why I do it. Do whatever you feel most comofortable with and seems to be most profitable to you. Limp, Raise, bla bla bla... Thats Poker. :cool:


what levels are you playing though? that makes a huge difference. Usually at higher levels you are not going to see pots just limped into preflop. I know if I kept seeing you limp into pots I sure would be raising you very very very light.

just dont take this strategy to 2/4 NL and up.
 
TheJace

TheJace

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Highest I've played at is $100 NLHE and it worked wonders. Also note that I'm not talking about JJ and 1010 I limp like 90% unless I'm on the button then prolly like 20% of the time I might raise with 99 or 1010 but everything below I limp. The main thing is say you raise on the button and have 2 callers. Ok you have good odds to steal a pot sure. Or you could just be throwing away chips. Kinda a coin flip so I don't see any solid gain here in a cash game. But if you limp on the button, hit your set and overcards come... Then someone else is likely to lead the pot and you can take down a large pot or possibly stack someone especially when the board Isn't scarey. So many times I've just limped and someone would have a big pocket pair and I would bust them because they'd put me on a draw or just basically not have a clue what the hell I had which is the point. I play tight agressive and I play low pairs tight and when I hit with them I crush with them. What can I say? It works for me but maybe not for other people but then again I've played my pairs like this for a long time so I've become pretty good at working them and getting peoples money in the middle when they hit.
 
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TheJace

TheJace

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Well the main way I ended up playing them like that was from a CardPlayer article that I read a while ago, like I said. It was written by a pro I can't remember who though but anyway he was using examples and explaining the strategy in terms of tables that were in the upper thousands so yea... I guess to quickly summarize it is a piece of a trapping strategy that can get you paid of big time if you know how to do it.
 
Beavis68

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The problem is Jace, is that you not only need to flop a set, you need to flop a set and have your opponent hit his hand too. You most likely have the best hand why are you giving them a free shot to out draw you or out play you.

You are leaving a lot of money on the table. Besides if you raise with 88 and you get called, someone that flops TP is going to pay you off anyway when you flop a set.

If you are open limping with these pairs you are leaving a lot of money up for grabs that should be yours.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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The problem is Jace, is that you not only need to flop a set, you need to flop a set and have your opponent hit his hand too. You most likely have the best hand why are you giving them a free shot to out draw you or out play you.

You are leaving a lot of money on the table. Besides if you raise with 88 and you get called, someone that flops TP is going to pay you off anyway when you flop a set.

If you are open limping with these pairs you are leaving a lot of money up for grabs that should be yours.

^^ this

Open-limping is generally not a good idea.

Also, Jace, raising can be just as deceptive as limping, but it will pick up more unwanted pots.

Why let the BB draw for free with his J3 against your 77?
And even if you do hit your set with a flop like 27K, will you be getting value out of it anyway?
 
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Will Sidis

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What would you guys do if you have 88 utg in a very loose game with a lot of preflop raising?
 
vanquish

vanquish

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What would you guys do if you have 88 utg in a very loose game with a lot of preflop raising?

I suppose it might depend slightly on how many players you are facing, but probably still fold.
 
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